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[00:51:56] <KimK> ssi: Still there? Yes, closed loop to orient, and you will likely have to select an alternate set of parameters on the drive (the drive must be capable of this). Or you could build some stuff to fiddle with the input if it's not. It needs to be "soft" to have slow accel open loop, and "hard" to act like a servo and hold position during a tool change. There may be a gear change required.
[00:53:03] <ssi> hm
[00:53:15] <KimK> ssi: But by now maybe you have discovered this on your own?
[00:53:20] <ssi> KimK: the primary application here is for pete's cinci arrow 500, and I've got a cinci sabre coming
[00:53:25] <ssi> no, haven't started messing with it yet
[00:53:35] <ssi> there's no gears to fiddle with thankfully
[00:53:41] <ssi> not sure what pete's VFD is, and I haven't bought one yet
[00:53:58] <ssi> the original machine was capable of doing spindle orient, but it's no longer the original spindle drive
[00:54:30] <KimK> OK. Are you using the Arrow drives? They must have been able to do this? Ah, OK, I just looked, you're way ahead of me.
[00:54:32] <ssi> pete's using modbus for his spindle VFD, so he may be able to change the drive parameters on the fly via modbus
[00:57:16] <KimK> If it's really a VFD, then probably a no-go, as you must be able to servo somehow. VFD's will always be "slippy" (normal). Unless there's a mechanical orient, as you were previously discussing.
[00:58:27] <KimK> OK, wait, if it's a VFD, then you have checked to see if it's an induction motor? If so, maybe a vector drive? Or did they have a big bruhless servo in there to begin with?
[00:58:50] <KimK> s/bruhless/brushless
[01:01:32] <KimK> Or, checking another way, is there an encoder on the spindle motor? (Not the spindle nose, unless driven by 1:1 timing belt or some other "easy" integer ratio). Is this the original spindle motor?
[01:01:42] <ssi> there is an encoder on the motor itself
[01:01:45] <ssi> and it's 2:1
[01:01:55] <ssi> we had to go through some gyrations to mask the encoder index, but we have that working now
[01:02:06] <ssi> it's the original motor, and I'm not sure what type of motor it is
[01:02:14] <ssi> i imagine it's an induction motor
[01:02:24] <ssi> and I'm pretty sure pete's vfd is sensorless vector drive
[01:02:55] <KimK> Induction motor or some kind of 3-phase permanent magnet (AC or DC brushless)?
[01:03:08] <KimK> Sorry, typing slow again
[01:04:09] <ssi> texting pete to see if he knows what the motor is
[01:04:13] <ssi> and also trying to google
[01:07:57] <KimK> OK, VFD (classic) maybe slips "10%" (5-20%?), "sensorless vector slips maybe "3%" (1-10%?), true vector drive (requires encoder) slips 0%, full torque at 0 rpm. So it can qualify for servo applications (though a "real" servo will have slightly better performance, the purists will quibble).
[01:08:27] <ssi> "true vector drive" implies the vfd has encoder feedback?
[01:08:34] <KimK> Yes
[01:08:39] <ssi> there's encoder feedback, but only to linuxcnc, and the vfd itself doesn't close the loop
[01:08:47] <ssi> pretty sure he's sensorless vector drive
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[01:10:59] <KimK> Sensorless vector is fine (even great!) for VFD, but may be problematic for position-holding servo applications, but you're welcome to try. Don't be surprised if you have "issues", though.
[01:11:43] <ssi> but with encoder feedback, it is at least theoretically possible to get a drive which'll do true vector
[01:11:51] <ssi> I'm getting him to find the model num of his vfd too
[01:14:21] <ssi> k pete's drive is a hitachi wj200-110lf
[01:15:53] <ssi> scanning through the manual to see if I can find anything relevant
[01:15:55] <ssi> "• PID control adjusts motor speed automatically to maintain a process variable value"
[01:19:11] <ssi> not seeing anything about encoder feedback though
[01:19:51] <KimK> Yes, that's it exactly. "...adjusts motor speed...". In other words, the motor must *keep moving* at a "sufficient" speed, at least 10% (or 3%) of base speed. Otherwise torque falls off to zero.
[01:19:57] <ssi> right
[01:20:12] <KimK> Sensorless vector is fine (even great!) for VFD, but may be problematic for position-holding servo applications, but you're welcome to try. Don't be surprised if you have "issues", though.
[01:20:24] <ssi> how do you suppose the original drive did it?
[01:22:45] <KimK> Servo motor and servo drive? Induction motor with encoder and vector drive? Not sure. Need to find out original motor type. Is original motor still mounted?
[01:22:52] <ssi> yes
[01:23:03] <ssi> and it was originally a resolver, fwiw
[01:23:08] <ssi> we retrofit it to an encoder
[01:25:21] <KimK> OK, you might be able to check it for permanent magnetism with a nail or drywall screw or some such. Maybe an unreliable test though, hopefully the nameplate (decal?) is intact.
[01:26:05] <ssi> he's supposed to send me the picture of the nameplate
[01:26:09] <ssi> but I haven't gotten it yet
[01:26:32] <KimK> If it was a resolver, I'll guess servomotor and servo drive, those two usually go together. I could be wrong though.
[01:26:57] <ssi> I'm not sure I've ever seen a 10-15hp servo drive
[01:27:11] <KimK> How many horsepower or KW?
[01:27:22] <ssi> I think mine is 15hp, his may be 10hp
[01:27:28] <KimK> Ha, you're ahead of me again.
[01:27:31] <ssi> hehe I'm working in the dark here
[01:27:40] <ssi> cause I don't have my machine yet, and his is 300 miles away :)
[01:29:03] <KimK> I have to change locations, I'll leave this on here and join again in 15 minutes. Back in a bit.
[01:29:13] <ssi> oke
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[01:36:15] <skunkworks_> people have done it with vfd.. It works ok it seems.. I don't know how fast you can communicate over modbus. I think robh used 0-10v
[01:36:22] <skunkworks_> (I have not done it yet..)
[01:36:44] <skunkworks_> what happens if a tapping operation runs into a soft limit? can it?
[01:37:23] <skunkworks_> I have never seen the issue that gene and david are talking about on the list
[01:37:47] <skunkworks_> I have never broke a tap with linuxcnc. really I have not..
[01:38:45] <ssi> I dunno what they're talking about on the list,
[01:38:56] <ssi> but in my experience, a rigid tap move will travel to the commanded depth, then decelerate
[01:39:08] <ssi> and the axis will continue moving in sync as long as the decel takes
[01:39:18] <ssi> which means for fast spindle speeds and slow decel rates, it can overshoot a fair amount
[01:39:37] <ssi> I had that issue on the HNC trying to tap deep holes
[01:39:43] <ssi> holes that were close to the usable tap length of my tap
[01:39:53] <ssi> and I broke some in the beginning trying to get that depth exactly right
[01:39:58] <ssi> cause otherwise the tap would bottom out and snap
[01:40:08] <ssi> bottom out? top out? whatever :)
[01:40:17] <skunkworks_> I remember gene complaining about the 'override soft limits' or such that he has to click by all the time.. (which seems like a configureation problem to me...)
[01:40:24] <cradek> skunkworks_: my guess: when the reversal is commanded, something noisy happens in hardware, and motion sees one or more wrong counts (backwards)
[01:40:51] <skunkworks_> cradek: that is my second thought..
[01:40:55] <cradek> halscope will show it if so
[01:40:58] <cradek> what's the first?
[01:41:03] <ssi> to answer your question though, I imagine a tapping operation CAN hit a soft limit, because the TP has no idea how far it's going to have to go to stay synchronized
[01:41:11] <skunkworks_> soft limits.. but I am sure I am wrong.
[01:41:25] <cradek> yes I bet that's also possible
[01:41:40] <ssi> it can plan for the case where you command a tap depth that's beyond the limit, but it can't plan for the case where your soft limit is say .1 below your commanded tap depth, but the tap operation has to overshoot by .2 because of slow decel
[01:41:52] <cradek> the TP will track for up to ten (I think) revolutions while waiting for reversal
[01:42:13] <skunkworks_> someone posted some hal trickery that takes into account the spindle decel.. iirc
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[01:42:30] <skunkworks_> I don't remember if I understood how it worked..
[01:42:32] <cradek> I don't know what all gene has done, but he's done a lot to compensate for a terrible spindle drive
[01:42:46] <skunkworks_> yes - I remember that also
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[02:11:20] <ssi> KimK-laptop:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CONTROL-TECHNIQUES-AC-MOTOR-A2E170-3PH-IP54-CINCINNATI-ARROW-500-/151229292108?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2335f7de4c
[02:11:37] <ssi> here's the data plate
[02:11:37] <ssi> http://s805.photobucket.com/user/lapurifier3/media/CHUCKY%20CHUCK/CINCINNATI%20ARROW%20500%20ERE%20PALLET%201/CINCINNATI%20ARROW%20500%20ERE%204TH%20P2/IMG_1735.jpg.html
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[02:13:35] <CaptHindsight> I ordered one of the frame prints and one Canvas Wraps :p
[02:13:47] <ssi> PetefromTn_: it's a 7.5hp motor?
[02:13:53] <ssi> I was unclear about that on mine... the auction said 7.5/15
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[02:14:59] <PetefromTn_> yeah just 7.5HP reduced to 2-1 at 12k RPM
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[02:15:16] <ssi> I imagine mine's the same
[02:15:21] <PetefromTn_> No idea
[02:15:26] <ssi> that's good though; a 15hp vfd is expensive enough, I was worried I'd have to go 30hp
[02:15:28] <PetefromTn_> Honestly probably not
[02:15:40] <ssi> well maybe not exactly the same
[02:15:43] <ssi> but it's probably 7.5hp rather t han 15
[02:15:44] <PetefromTn_> that motor came with the Control Techniques control
[02:15:50] <PetefromTn_> most likely
[02:18:09] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: which bearings did you change? the ones in the motor or in the end of the spindle?
[02:18:19] <PetefromTn_> motor
[02:19:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CINCINNATI-MILACRON-ARROW-500E-CNC-SPINDLE-UNIT-CT40-CAT-40-TAPER-0612629110000/161426435439 the ones in the spindle look like a much larger project
[02:21:11] <ssi> don't tell me that :'(
[02:21:26] <CaptHindsight> you didn't hear it from me
[02:21:33] <ssi> mine needs bearings
[02:21:35] <ssi> but the bearings come with it
[02:21:38] <PetefromTn_> meh my friend in PA has the same exact machine and did it, he said it was not too bad at all really.
[02:22:32] <KimK-laptop> Hi, back for a bit. Sometimes the dual HP rating is for overload. Maybe 7.5HP continuous, 15 HP for 30 min with 30 min off, or something like that, need to see motor manual or details, etc. What's the diff between the two motor plates, one says 14A and one says 5.5KW?
[02:23:19] <ssi> KimK-laptop: sorry, the 7.5/15 thing I was talking about was somewhere else. The machine I'm buying is a sabre 500, it's avery similar machine, but not exactly the same, and the seller listed it as a "7.5/15 hp spindle"
[02:23:26] <ssi> pete's motor definitively says 5.5kw
[02:23:44] <KimK-laptop> OK.
[02:23:46] <ssi> but it definitely seems to be an induction motor
[02:23:46] <PetefromTn_> yeah it's 5.5 kw
[02:24:22] <KimK-laptop> Yes, induction, the "slip" amount is a giveaway.
[02:24:53] <KimK-laptop> So, good, problem solvable.
[02:25:23] <PetefromTn_> good to hear that....
[02:25:26] <CaptHindsight> ssi: not too far from you
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matsuura-800V-CNC-Vertical-Mill-/201182029062
[02:25:36] <PetefromTn_> he already bought one LOL
[02:25:47] <ssi> yeah too late now :)
[02:25:50] <KimK-laptop> And as I recall, Arrows are not too bad, except for the "odd" control, so, yay LinuxCNC!
[02:25:53] <ssi> wire transfer went through this morning
[02:25:59] <PetefromTn_> I love my arrow
[02:26:07] <ssi> KimK-laptop: the cincis are definitely nice machines, and good candidates for retrofit it seems
[02:26:10] <PetefromTn_> damn machine is very simple and precise.
[02:26:20] <ssi> they're getting to an age where people are having tons of issues with the control electronics and drives
[02:26:24] <ssi> but the iron is nice
[02:26:28] <PetefromTn_> all pneumatic and electric
[02:26:31] <ssi> == cheap machines for retrofits :)
[02:26:50] <PetefromTn_> no hydraulics to deal with
[02:27:28] <PetefromTn_> with LinuxCNC it feels like a new machine almost...once we get this toolchanger and spindle orient working it will be the BEES KNEES!!!
[02:27:44] <ssi> agreed
[02:27:54] <KimK-laptop> Yes, and I saw the roller ways, so, good for contouring and other high-travel complex shapes in aluminum. Maybe not so good for inconel, hard stainless, etc.
[02:28:11] <KimK-laptop> titanium
[02:28:21] <ssi> I don't do much in exotics :)
[02:28:21] <KimK-laptop> all that ugly stuff, lol
[02:28:22] <PetefromTn_> I have only cut a few things in steel so far....no issues whatsoever tho
[02:28:23] <ssi> mostly aluminum
[02:28:55] <PetefromTn_> it is a linear rail machine but the rails are very large and heavy
[02:29:08] <ssi> 30mm I think
[02:29:09] <KimK-laptop> Steel should be OK too. Also cast iron, but it makes a mess everywhere.
[02:29:21] <PetefromTn_> cast iron is soft really
[02:30:16] <PetefromTn_> I machined a bunch of BMW custom brackets for a local guy that customizes them out of steel awhile back when I first got the machine working and it was quite uneventful LOL
[02:31:29] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Mori-Seiki-MV-45-40-CNC-Vertical-Mill-with-Fanuc-11M-Control-/251656593381
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[02:33:24] <KimK-laptop> You might want to check and see if any of the "economy" builders of vector drives offer parameter selection inputs. I know that Baldor's did in the older vectors, so I imagine the newer ones do too, haven't used one since they came out. Four sets of parameters selected with two 24VDC input bits.
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[02:34:02] <PetefromTn_> mine is a Hitachi WJ200-110LF
[02:34:15] <KimK-laptop> (Most stuff I buy is from eBay, rather than new-out-of-the-box, lol.)
[02:34:16] <PetefromTn_> It has a LOT of parameters most I do not understand LOL
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[02:39:19] <PetefromTn_> so what do you think how do we proceed here with getting spindle orient working on this machine using that VFD and the motor I have?
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[02:56:41] <KimK-laptop> Sorry, I didn't search for that manual, I was away a bit. Is there a link to that pdf? I'll look it over. But have to leave here shortly, back at home in a few minutes.
[02:57:27] <PetefromTn_> hang on...
[02:58:15] <PetefromTn_> http://driveswarehouse.com/documentation/Hitachi/WJ200M.pdf
[02:58:28] <KimK-laptop> OK, let me look...
[02:59:02] <PetefromTn_> http://driveswarehouse.com/documentation/Hitachi/WJ200R.pdf quick reference guide
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[03:15:47] <KimK-laptop> Ha, so 15kW to drive a 5.5kW motor? I guess the drive should be "comfortable"? Still reading...
[03:20:20] <PetefromTn_> well they told me to derate it by half..
[03:20:59] <PetefromTn_> the smaller ones were not that much cheaper really.
[03:21:18] <PetefromTn_> besides I like Comfortable ;)
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[03:29:01] <PetefromTn_> Well gotta get to bed. talk tomorrow. Gn8
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[03:34:26] <KimK-laptop> PetefromTn is gone, and I'd better go too. Goodnight all.
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[07:22:56] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Sebastian Kuzminsky 052.6 4674c39 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/hal/pyvcp.txt docs: fix some pyvcp examples * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=4674c39
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[10:08:37] <skunkworks_> I really think to even try the orient - you are going to need to do analog input to the drive... I don't think you will have enough control over modbus. (setting up a pid loop for position) I am pretty sure that is what robh does.
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[12:13:52] <cradek> I don't know what all gene has done, but he's done a lot to compensate for a terrible spindle drive
[12:14:10] <cradek> oops
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[12:16:52] <skunkworks_> wait - deja u?
[12:16:56] <skunkworks_> wait - deja vu?
[12:17:35] <skunkworks_> did you see dad picked up a probe that has the bt35 taper?
[12:17:55] <skunkworks_> I wonder what probing stuff the yasnak control has...
[12:20:18] <skunkworks_> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/probe/PROBE2.JPG
[12:20:51] <skunkworks_> it is the same brand as the one we use on the k&t. A renishaw knock off but seems to work very well
[12:21:44] <skunkworks_> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/probing.png
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[12:21:59] <skunkworks_> probing 2 bores in 2 different locations.
[12:22:24] <skunkworks_> top two are the same bore - bottom two are the same bore.
[12:22:47] <skunkworks_> btw - what is angle and distance?
[12:22:52] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03John Thornton 05master 85e733b 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/index.tmpl Docs: remove comp from hal component generator title * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=85e733b
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[12:25:10] <skunkworks_> oh - that must be from coordinate 0,0..
[12:25:16] <skunkworks_> duh
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[14:12:54] <jepler> I think cradek and I will be testing the signed-off-hook later this morning.
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[14:15:01] <cradek> jepler: it's ready to try
[14:15:35] <PetefromTn_> what is a signed off hook?
[14:15:43] <cradek> jepler: hang on
[14:16:25] <jepler> PetefromTn_: it's important to ensure that all code contributed to linuxcnc is under an appropriate license
[14:17:02] <cradek> jepler: date -d doesn't work like that; fixed
[14:17:36] <PetefromTn_> okay some sort of licensing umbrella setup then. thank you.
[14:17:37] <cradek> do we want to set it to today?
[14:17:46] <jepler> PetefromTn_: we have recently adopted a process that is used by the linux kernel developers and others, in which the contributor writes "signed-off-by: Name <email@address>" as a way to say that the changes in the commit are under an appropriate license
[14:18:16] <jepler> PetefromTn_: the "hook" we are talking about is an automatic check whenever a developer uploads changes to git.linuxcnc.org, the place where the official linuxcnc source lives.
[14:18:20] <jepler> cradek: yes
[14:18:35] <jepler> cradek: I checked the proposal and it says we'd try to do it by the 5th, but it doesn't say we wouldn't do it before the 5th
[14:18:59] <PetefromTn_> well let me say THANK YOU to all you guys that do all you do to make LinuxCNC what it is today. I really appreciate it.
[14:19:22] <cradek> set it to today, aka 1412053200
[14:19:34] <jepler> cradek: OK
[14:19:56] <jepler> cradek: OK, I'm going to try a push that I expect to fail..
[14:20:00] <cradek> whee
[14:20:27] <jepler> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8466306/
[14:21:12] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 052.6 8dbe3a5 06linuxcnc 03docs/man/man1/milltask.1 docs: document milltask's "ini.*" hal pins * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=8dbe3a5
[14:21:22] <jepler> OK, expected that one to succeed
[14:21:40] <jepler> now two more tests, a merge which is not signed-off (should fail) and a merge which is signed off (should succeed)
[14:22:19] <jepler> hmm now we have a problem
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[14:22:30] <jepler> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8466313/
[14:23:05] <jepler> so commit 4674c39 is not yet merged to master, it's after the cutoff, and it's not signed off
[14:23:35] <jepler> cradek: please turn off the hook for a second so I can get this merge of 2.6 to master pushed
[14:23:56] <cradek> hook disabled
[14:24:25] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 05master e667607 06linuxcnc 10scripts/sim_pin Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/2.6' * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=e667607
[14:25:16] <cradek> shoudl I reenable it?
[14:25:25] <jepler> cradek: yes
[14:25:34] <cradek> done
[14:25:41] <jepler> now I'm contemplating what will happen when some long-lived branch is rebased onto master
[14:26:02] <jepler> commit 4674c39 would be a problem then too
[14:27:30] <cradek> rebasing doesn't change the commit dates, does it?
[14:27:39] <seb_kuzminsky> not unless you specifically ask it to
[14:27:51] <cradek> I thought we already thought about that, and it was fine
[14:28:16] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Dewey Garrett 052.6 5760eaf 06linuxcnc 10configs/sim/axis/ini_hal_demo.ini 03configs/sim/axis/postgui_calib_helper.hal 10tcl/bin/emccalib.tcl emccalib.tcl: enable search in POSTGUI_HALFILEs * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=5760eaf
[14:28:33] <seb_kuzminsky> that commit had 2 SOBs, seems to have worked
[14:28:47] <jepler> the rebased branch would include 4674c39 in its history, and the hook would reject it due to 4674c39
[14:29:13] <jepler> the problem being that there's a commit after the cutoff date that's not signed off
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[14:29:19] <jepler> the fix is to increase the cutoff date
[14:29:46] <jepler> to october 1, or to today at 9AM, or whatever
[14:29:54] <cradek> let's make it 10/01
[14:30:01] <jepler> or trhe ISO 8601 date string 2014-09-30Z12:00
[14:30:13] <micges-dev> seb_kuzminsky: how to make two SOBs ais made?
[14:30:21] <micges-dev> seb_kuzminsky: how to make two SOBs?
[14:31:36] <seb_kuzminsky> micges-dev: dewey emailed me a patch to review, with an SOB from him. I applied it to my tree with 'git am -s 0001.deweys-patch', which added an SOB from me
[14:31:39] <cradek> I changed it to 2014/10/01 aka 1412139600
[14:31:44] <seb_kuzminsky> bbl
[14:32:14] <micges-dev> ah ok
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[14:45:52] <skunkworks_> runing full day with idle=poll and 2khz
[14:47:10] <pcw_home> J1900?
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[14:54:36] <jepler> I'll get a mail about SOB sent a little later this morning
[14:54:44] <skunkworks_> yes
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[14:55:56] <pcw_home> I'll see how the G3258 does later this week
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[15:39:41] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 05master 0167c05 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/code/Contributing-to-LinuxCNC.txt docs: note that we accept pull requests on github * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=0167c05
[15:39:41] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 05master 0c5bc20 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/code/Contributing-to-LinuxCNC.txt docs: improve a code block * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=0c5bc20
[15:39:41] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Jeff Epler 05master b8f82aa 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/code/Contributing-to-LinuxCNC.txt docs: document SOB procedure * 14http://git.linuxcnc.org/?p=linuxcnc.git;a=commitdiff;h=b8f82aa
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[15:40:53] <jepler> I look forward to having my commits rejected until I learn to sign off
[15:45:43] <kwallace2> Hello, I'm using gEdit to write Python scripts. Is there a convenient way to change the indenting for a block within a file?
[15:46:39] <cradek> not really; that is the wrong tool to use for programming in python
[15:46:54] <jepler> some google searching finds a 2011 article that says highlight a range and use tab/shift-tab to change indentation level
[15:47:14] <cradek> ok, I sit corrected about the first half of my answer
[15:47:31] <jepler> well, not so much an article as somebody's blog post that says it works
[15:48:48] <kwallace2> I'm giving a try, I'll be bock.
[15:49:34] <jepler> confirmed in gedit 3.4.2 (debian wheezy)
[15:50:03] <kwallace2> Woo Hoo. Thank you.
[15:50:45] <kwallace2> I tried Wing a while back and didn't like it enough to pay for it.
[15:53:41] <jepler> I try my best not to evangelize any particular editor. but when it comes to linuxcnc development a bare minimum is an editor that supports "indentation level is 4 spaces, tab character is 8 spaces" (because that's the standard linuxcnc source files are formatted in) and doesn't change whitespace (e.g., converting spaces to tabs) without explicit action by the user
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[15:54:55] <jepler> if I evangelized a particular editor then people would ask me with help on how to use it :-P
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[15:57:53] <kwallace2> Crud, gEdit Block Tab changes spaces to tabs. I loath tabs.
[15:58:55] <jepler> you're right to loathe tabs for python code. Python's code style guide, "PEP 8", says to use spaces exclusively.
http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces
[15:59:13] <jepler> (not all python code in linuxcnc does this, unfortunately I used to be a tabs-*and*-spaces advocate which is probably the worst of all compromises)
[16:03:24] <kwallace2> Cool - "If it's in general for all your edited files, there is also a preference:
[16:03:24] <kwallace2> - Edit => Preferences
[16:03:24] <kwallace2> - Editor tab => check the box "Insert spaces instead of tabs" "
[16:04:23] <kwallace2> Seems to work.
[16:05:33] <skunkworks_> jepler, why did you install gedit on wheezy?
[16:05:50] <skunkworks_> (is it because that is your favorite....??) Hmmm
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[16:10:12] <kwallace2> I like gEdit's simplicity. I consider Python as feature creep from C, which is feature creep from Assembler. Anything beyond G0 to G3 is also feature creep. Sorry, I'm going back to work.
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[16:16:18] <jepler> skunkworks_: I uninstalled it right away, don't worry
[16:16:18] <jepler> $ gedit
[16:16:18] <jepler> bash: gedit: command not found
[16:16:34] <jepler> kwallace2: at $DAY_JOB we have a rule: only try to bait people into IRC flamewars on friday. otherwise it's too harmful to productivity.
[16:20:48] <kwallace2> jepler, LOL, sorry, I'll try harder to be good.
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[16:50:16] <Connor> kwallace2: Switch to Sublime
[16:50:51] <Connor> for coding.. way better.
[16:53:46] <kwallace2> Connor, I like the home page demo. I'll give it a look-see. Thank you.
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[17:08:57] <Connor> kwallace2: I use it everyday for programming.. html, css, coldfusion, php, SQL.. etc
[17:09:00] <skunkworks_> I would use whatever jepler uses... ;)
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[17:49:23] <skunkworks_> although he probably programs in binary.. 8 bit with one thumb set for space and the other for enter..
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[17:53:38] <jepler> skunkworks_:
http://images.gizmag.com/inline/engelbart-arc.jpg
[17:54:28] <jepler> skunkworks_: this input setup is not far from what you describe
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[17:55:47] <skunkworks_> is that for court dictation?
[17:56:04] <jepler> no, the stenotype is different
[17:56:08] <skunkworks_> ah
[17:57:27] <jepler> the chording keyboard in that picture could directly enter 31 different symbols; together with 1 or 2 buttons on the mouse, it could enter upper and lowercase, digits, and most symbols, plus directly execute about 30 commands in the operating system
[17:58:01] <seb_kuzminsky> http://xkcd.com/378/
[17:59:37] <skunkworks_> heh
[18:01:31] <skunkworks_> I have watched jeff program.. I guess I have never paid attention to what he was editing in.. Just mesmerized by the speed.
[18:01:41] <skunkworks_> z
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[18:03:02] <cradek> if you find yourself having to think about your editor, either it sucks (is the wrong tool for the task) or you should spend time learning it
[18:03:16] <jepler> you've never really experienced me typing until it's on a buckling-spring keyboard
[18:03:41] <cradek> a secret: that's how you get an office with a door
[18:03:41] <seb_kuzminsky> although it's awkward when someone asks you how you did something and you pause for a second and then say "i dont know"
[18:03:41] <jepler> cradek: how can you tell which is which, particularly if you're new to the particular editor?
[18:03:59] <cradek> jepler: that's when listening to others' snark is so important
[18:04:06] <seb_kuzminsky> and then you have to watch yourself do it and you're like "oh yeah"
[18:04:20] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: that also happens when playing music
[18:04:36] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet
[18:04:44] <seb_kuzminsky> mmm, muscle memory
[18:04:57] <cradek> we're made of meat and it's all so ridiculous
[18:05:54] <seb_kuzminsky> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tScAyNaRdQ
[18:07:26] <cradek> I know this as a short story - I don't know if the video helps it
[18:08:32] <seb_kuzminsky> who does the thinking, then?
[18:11:09] <ssi> I have a chording keyboard called a twiddler
[18:11:15] <ssi> we used to use them for early wearables in the late 90s
[18:12:14] <jepler> yeah, a colleague had a twiddler
[18:12:22] <jepler> I don't know whether he ever became good at text entry with it
[18:12:25] <ssi> I got up to about 12wpm on it
[18:12:27] <ssi> years ago
[18:12:30] <ssi> but it took a ton of practice
[18:12:33] <jepler> I bet
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[18:14:41] <skunkworks_> My coworker is using dvorak layout.. I forget and sit down at his computer and promptly type garbage.
[18:25:50] <jepler> the same thing happens when I sit down at a random person's computer and try to use the default text editor
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[18:26:10] <jepler> I'll insert jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj^[^[^[dddddd or so before I realize what's going on
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[18:35:05] <kwallace2> The last hour of IRC is not my fault.
[18:35:40] * mozmck has a buckling spring keyboard - got 8 brand new Unicomp UNI046G keyboards at auction for $1 each
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[18:51:02] <ssi> skunkworks_: I've been a dvorak zealot since 2001
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[19:30:38] <CaptHindsight> does anyone add an extra superuser or admin account on their installs in case a user/customer somehow changes their password (and forgets it) or somehow breaks their system?
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[21:10:57] <PCW> hmm apt-get install (some-old-preemt-rt-kernel) breaks the grub config on wheezy
[21:10:59] <PCW> (select any kernel you want, you always get preemt-rt)
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[22:28:47] <seb_kuzminsky> CaptHindsight: no, but i keep "init=/bin/bash" in my back pocket for occasions like that
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[22:38:14] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: watch out, some versions of systemd-in-initrd break init=/bin/bash
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[22:38:17] <jepler> https://www.mail-archive.com/systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org/msg19825.html
[22:38:31] <jepler> maybe it's fixed now, if they were quarreling over commit messages in january
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[22:46:17] <jepler> (though I have to admit I've used systemd on two debian jessie machines and it hasn't actually caused me trouble yet .. it's just the systemd philosophy that gets my goat)
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[23:30:29] <PCW> 15 Ethernet connected stepgens is not too many at 1KHz, but found another rogue packet error :-(
[23:33:05] <PCW> Its a single packet read of location 0 in hm2 space ( would be a segv if in system memory :-) )
[23:33:47] <micges-dev1> oh
[23:34:09] <PCW> tcpdump FTW
[23:34:15] <micges-dev1> what hardware? maybe I can reproduce
[23:34:43] <PCW> umm 7i80DB with 7I76x3D config
[23:35:12] <PCW> I can narrow it down
[23:38:15] <PCW> what hardware do you have?
[23:39:08] <micges-dev1> got 7i80db, searching it on desk atm
[23:39:21] <PCW> :-)
[23:40:03] <micges-dev1> got it
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[23:42:50] <micges-dev1> brb
[23:44:39] <jepler> hmm I remember seeing a zero-byte write *not* at address zero
[23:44:46] <jepler> I forget what I traced it to, and I fear I didn't fix it
[23:45:26] <PCW> what i see is 8142 0000 (and the reply)
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[23:46:42] <PCW> probably a number of direct read/writes still lurking around
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[23:47:50] <PCW> micges: freeby.mesanet.com/test.zip are the hal and ini files I used
[23:49:02] <micges-dev> ok
[23:49:09] <PCW> (7i80 at 10.10.10.10) I guess I should make that the default EEPROM IP address
[23:49:53] <PCW> easier if its off in left field
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[23:54:43] <micges-dev> got setup running, hold on I'm updating my 7i80.zip
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