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[12:31:59] <skunkworks__> logger[psha],
[12:33:30] <skunkworks__> pcw_home, did you get a chance to try your usb's?
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[12:46:49] <skunkworks__> -3 no usb's either.
[12:46:53] <skunkworks__> just odd
[12:47:38] <skunkworks__> I did double check - with nothing plugged into the usb - I do get the errors. (and plugging something in has no change to dmesg)
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[13:50:04] <seb_kuzminsky> bummer
[13:50:38] <seb_kuzminsky> ok so the problem is with the internal usb tree, before it gets to the external ports on your computer
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[14:00:32] <pcw_home> Unfortunately I overwrote the drive of my ubuntu 12.04 with
[14:00:34] <pcw_home> 2.6.32 kernel system so I was not able to test again
[14:00:35] <pcw_home> stock 10.04 with 2.6.32 RTAI definitely doesn't work
[14:05:03] badon_ is now known as badon
[14:06:35] <pcw_home> Even some older stock kernels dont work (the 3.2 that comes with 12.04 doesnt work)
[14:06:37] <pcw_home> It may be asking a lot to have RTAI support for the JXXXX CPUs since they are so new
[14:06:38] <pcw_home> (and need a >3.11.xx kernel for accelerated video)
[14:14:34] <CaptHindsight> after the RTAI scheduler gets fixed then 3.11 RTAI will be possible
[14:20:19] <pcw_home> Hmm wonder if anyone is actually working on that...
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[14:33:22] <CaptHindsight> it's in Paolo's hands right now, after he fixes that memleak will probably work on the newer kernels
[14:37:40] <CaptHindsight> we're almost to the August shutdown of Europe, I don't know if he works on this during his break or avoids it further
[14:38:37] <CaptHindsight> this has been the hangup with RTAI since early May
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[15:18:55] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks__: so your usb works with the 3.2.0-4-rt-686-pae kernel, do you know if it works with the debian non-rt kernel, 3.2.0-4-686-pae?
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[15:20:00] <skunkworks__> I do not..
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[15:29:15] <skunkworks__> Can I easly install the stock debian kernel easy? or would it be better to get the stock wheezy image?
[15:30:44] <skunkworks__> this motherboard exibits the same problem (pretty close to the same system..)
[15:30:47] <skunkworks__> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128698
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[15:43:23] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks__: you can install the stock kernel easily:
[15:43:42] <seb_kuzminsky> sudo apt-get install linux-image-3.2.0-4-686-pae
[15:43:58] <seb_kuzminsky> then reboot and it should show up in the grub menu somewhere
[15:44:29] <seb_kuzminsky> it feels like some kind of sickness that i want to deliberately buy broken hardware
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[15:48:15] <seb_kuzminsky> this looks relevant:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1039245
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[15:51:01] <skunkworks__> that does look relevent
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[16:34:32] <skunkworks__> seb_kuzminsky, I could send you one of these if you want to play..
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[16:39:47] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks__: thanks for the offer but i dont really want that :-/
[16:39:55] <skunkworks__> heh
[16:40:14] * seb_kuzminsky looks guiltily at a big pile of half-finished projects
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[16:41:53] <skunkworks__> bbl
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[17:41:17] <CaptHindsight> is it possible to backport the Intel video drivers to 3.4?
[17:41:46] <CaptHindsight> PCW: ^^
[17:44:43] <pcw_home> from what I've read this is unlikely
[17:45:22] <pcw_home> https://lists.yoctoproject.org/pipermail/meta-intel/2014-February/001627.html
[17:45:23] <pcw_home> for example
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[17:50:44] <seb_kuzminsky> i hope the rtai folks focus on linux 3.14 for the next kernel, it's going to be an LTS
[17:52:27] <seb_kuzminsky> meh, i guess 3.10 and 3.12 are too, nevermind
[18:03:40] <pcw_home> Both 3.12 and 3.14 have Baytrail support
[18:03:42] <pcw_home> (my preemt-rt tests were don e with a homebuilt 3.12 kernel)
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[18:21:08] <CaptHindsight> maybe it's time to hire someone to fix RTAI
[18:22:42] badon_ is now known as badon
[18:23:47] <CaptHindsight> I'll ask around
[18:24:28] <CaptHindsight> then the same might be true for preempt_rt
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[18:25:58] <CaptHindsight> is RTAI really used for anything besides software stepping to save the ~$100 for an FPGA card?
[18:26:36] <CaptHindsight> maybe it makes more sense to make sure preempt_RT stays healthy and up to date
[18:27:51] <pcw_home> RTAI (or Xenomai) is important if you want higher thread rates even if its not for step generation
[18:29:01] <pcw_home> say for torque mode control at 10 KHZ or so in HAL
[18:29:36] <CaptHindsight> if the RTAI scheduler gets fixed then we'll be set for how long long until the kernel goes through some giant refactoring?
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[18:31:06] <CaptHindsight> what kernel version is xenomai up to?
[18:31:24] <pcw_home> 3.14 I think
[18:31:35] <CaptHindsight> on ARM and x86?
[18:31:40] <CaptHindsight> or just ARM?
[18:31:47] <pcw_home> both
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[18:34:53] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler recently discovered that hal won't work in current arm processors, and can't easily be fixed
[18:35:34] <seb_kuzminsky> arm does not guarantee atomic updates of larger-than-32-bit variables, and hal uses 64-bit floating point numbers
[18:35:35] <CaptHindsight> last time we compared the 3 different RT kernels on the same hardware it was ~4x, 2x, 1x preempt_rt, xenomai, RTAI for latency
[18:36:12] <CaptHindsight> still the F###ing float problems on ARM
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[18:37:23] <pcw_home> beware that the latency test does no hardware access so may give overly optimistic numbers.
[18:37:30] <CaptHindsight> went through this a few years ago with vector drawing applications on ARM
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[18:38:54] <CaptHindsight> maybe it's time to make a real latency test system
[18:39:30] <CaptHindsight> that everyone could easily get and run
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[18:43:03] <CaptHindsight> but if the current software test works good enough to get a relative idea then it serves its purpose
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[18:49:52] <CaptHindsight> here's more RTAI news, memleak had 3.8.13 RTAI working
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[18:50:51] <CaptHindsight> the isolcpus= x x x is a temp workaround to fix the scheduler
[18:51:34] <CaptHindsight> the branch of RTAI at Shabbyx that worked with linuxcnc was deleted from that git last week for reasons unknown
[18:53:32] <CaptHindsight> 3.10, 3.12 and 3.14 kernels should work with the isolcpus=x x x (For example isolcpus=1,2,3 for a 4 core)
[18:54:02] <CaptHindsight> but Linuxcnc will need fixes in /proc
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[18:58:32] <CaptHindsight> seems the working branch is back up and up to 3.10
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[19:10:57] <seb_kuzminsky> CaptHindsight: at some point i'll try to build linux/rtai debs from newer versions of shabby's repo, but i need to focus on linuxcnc itself for a bit first
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[19:18:30] <CaptHindsight> seb_kuzminsky: no problem, keeping up with the moving target of what and where of the RTAI repos has been frustrating
[19:19:46] <CaptHindsight> I think memleak decided to just keep his own repo going with what works and then pass that along to shabbyx and RTAI
[19:20:40] <CaptHindsight> if there was a buildbot for RTAI then it would be clear who broke what and when, but these isn't one
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[19:21:46] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, that's a bummer, it's a good piece of infrastructure for any project to have
[19:22:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i'd be happy to help if someone wanted to set one up, but i dont want to do it myself
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[19:35:42] <CaptHindsight> is there a working template somewhere where you just add your repo and users? :)
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[19:41:38] <skunkworks_> seb_kuzminsky: the machine that has latency issue seems to be hardware somehow. We have the same motherboard on the k&t - it runs the latest weezy live image at around10us...
[19:43:04] <skunkworks_> (even though the latency is good with the 10.04 image...)
[19:45:18] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks_: i must have missed something - is there a computer that gets good latency with the 2.6.32 rtai kernel from 10.04 but bad latency with the 3.4.55 rtai kernel i just built?
[19:48:10] <skunkworks_> yes. 10.04 gets latency of 10us - new kernel is 50+us
[19:48:22] <seb_kuzminsky> bummer :-(
[19:49:12] <seb_kuzminsky> that should probably be a bug report to the rtai mailing list, but unfortunately the rtai/linux debs i built are of an old version that has since been removed from their repo :-(
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[19:52:10] <seb_kuzminsky> i chose that version of rtai not because i'm a jerk, but because that was the only one i could find that would actually compile :-(
[19:52:50] <seb_kuzminsky> i think shabby didn't know his rtai didn't work, because they dont have a buildbot to test their branches for them
[19:53:34] <CaptHindsight> the Linuxcnc test system I was building managed to get a combo of cpu and chipset that has poor latency..
[19:53:48] <seb_kuzminsky> shabby has since re-re-re-re-rebased his repo, but i've run out of enthusiasm for being their buildbot, for the moment
[19:53:55] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe after 2.6 gets out...
[19:53:59] <CaptHindsight> I bring up a new one while waiting for some other new cpu's
[19:54:25] <skunkworks_> well - hold on. could it be the video? the live images uses nouveau - the 10.04 says nvidiafb, nouveau
[19:54:26] <CaptHindsight> I'll keep this dedicated to testing any new linuxcnc patches and kernels
[19:54:57] <skunkworks_> it seems to be related to video - you pull the latency test over glxgears - latency jumps
[19:55:08] <seb_kuzminsky> nvidia *is* known to make latency suck....
[19:55:32] <CaptHindsight> it'll have 10.04, precise and mint in both ubuntu and debian flavors, probably wheezy as well since it's become popular here
[19:56:55] <seb_kuzminsky> CaptHindsight: sounds like a useful test rig
[19:58:45] <skunkworks_> let me see what is on the k&t - it has a radion card in it
[19:59:26] <skunkworks_> so - maybe the wheezy nouveau driver has issues?
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[20:00:45] <skunkworks_> can you change the driver to something more generic on the livecd easy?
[20:00:52] <skunkworks_> (like can I do that?)
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[20:01:40] <CaptHindsight> seb_kuzminsky: let me check into the atomic 32bit issue on ARM
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[20:03:46] <skunkworks_> so - the systems that have bad latency (but good with the 10.04) are asus motherboards with some form of ati/amd video that use the nouveau kernel driver
[20:04:37] <skunkworks_> the one that works great has a radeon using the radeon kernel driver
[20:06:52] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks_: the only reason i said that is this:
[20:07:05] <seb_kuzminsky> (i was going to link to the wiki page, but the wiki seems to be down)
[20:07:12] <seb_kuzminsky> all of linuxcnc.org seems to be down for me
[20:07:55] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: looks like the shared machine hosting most l.o webservices just rebooted, it has an uptime of 1 minute
[20:08:05] <seb_kuzminsky> i can get to git.linuxcnc.org but not www.linuxcnc.org
[20:08:08] <seb_kuzminsky> ah, ok
[20:08:12] <jepler> that machine hosts www.l.o and wiki.l.o
[20:08:16] <jepler> but yes, not git.l.o
[20:08:23] <seb_kuzminsky> right
[20:08:27] <jepler> hopefully it'll be back up soon
[20:09:16] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: you found that arm doesn't do atomic 64-bit updates, right? only 32-bit updates are atomic?
[20:10:15] <seb_kuzminsky> http://psha.org.ru/irc/%23emc-devel/2014-07-02.html#14:14:46
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[20:11:15] <skunkworks_> I thought linuxcnc was on dreamhost..
[20:11:53] <seb_kuzminsky> i still think so
[20:12:02] <cradek> it is
[20:12:29] <cradek> currently on snotra.dreamhost.com
[20:16:01] <seb_kuzminsky> snotra has a /var/log/systemcrash.log file from just now, but i dont have permission to read it
[20:21:10] <skunkworks_> hmm - s3 video card - still still crappy latency..
[20:23:18] <seb_kuzminsky> www.linuxcnc.org is still not back
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[20:35:18] <skunkworks_> switching the video card from the k&t to the troubled system - <10us latency.
[20:35:53] <CaptHindsight> memleak is bringing up the A20 ARM board again, Linuxcnc was working on it a few months ago, but it was just an ugly hack to get it running
[20:36:05] <CaptHindsight> this time it's better
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[20:41:35] <skunkworks_> seb_kuzminsky: ^
[20:41:53] <skunkworks_> so nvida is even suckier now
[20:43:21] <CaptHindsight> http://www.linuxcnc.org/ is back \0/
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[21:04:35] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks_: ok, good to know, thanks
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[21:08:25] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks_: and here's the page i tried to link for you (you probably know this already):
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TroubleShooting#NVidia_and_ATI_graphics_cards
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[21:09:50] <CaptHindsight> seb_kuzminsky: we tried using the shabbyx repo for the past year, but we'll get a new RTAI repo up that you can use that won't be a moving target
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[21:12:58] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: my findding is that gcc generates volatile double stores into instructions that are not atomic. I don't know what appropriate 64 bit store exists, but it seems likely there is one.
[21:17:17] <jepler> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2011-07/msg02234.html
[21:18:04] <seb_kuzminsky> Note: the only way to get atomic 64-bit memory accesses on ARM is to use ldrex/strex with a loop (ldrd and strd instructions are not guaranteed to appear atomic).
[21:18:08] <jepler> some arms have atomic 64 bit ops (strexd) but are unlikely to generate them for mere stores to volatile doubles.
[21:18:08] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pes20/cpp/cpp0xmappings.html
[21:18:54] <seb_kuzminsky> ok cool
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[21:21:32] <jepler> strexd can fail, apparently (has a register output for success/fail). so it's more complicated than 'emit strexd as store insn'
[21:21:48] <jepler> http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0360e/CHDGJGGC.html
[21:28:28] <cradek> cool - if you install without network, and then hook to a network, the update manager pops up.
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[21:32:43] <seb_kuzminsky> that's useful
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[21:51:21] <jepler> so right now, I think that to work on arm CPUs, you'd have to have a couple of macros to read/write at least values of type hal_float_t; on arm they'd have to get into architecture-dependent assembly
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[22:11:36] <cradek> or just change them back to floats on arm? it almost works well enough - we used it that way for years.
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[22:15:17] <jepler> cradek: yes, I believe the atomicity guarantee for storing 32-bit floats is sufficient
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