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[09:06:40] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03tissf 05v2.5_branch 31ebc41 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/gcode/m-code_fr.txt * French doc. update to follow John: fix M66 example missing Q word
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[12:48:40] <skunkworks> logger[psha],
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[13:02:48] <mhaberler> here's some riddle - guess what this means:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_KiWrhi5Y&feature=youtu.be
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[13:05:44] <jepler> that in combing through the source code you found the right integral constant '1' to change to '2'?
[13:06:05] <mhaberler> 0..255
[13:06:22] <mhaberler> only one kernel thread instance; arbitrary userRT instances
[13:07:40] <mhaberler> that is already the universal binary - loads any rtap/ulapi from .so's/.ko's
[13:08:18] <jepler> that's pretty neat
[13:08:56] <mhaberler> the issue aint HAL or RTAPI anymore - NML has no idea of multiple instances and it some very sad code
[13:09:19] <mhaberler> means: linuxcncsvr instance 1 takes down all others
[13:09:33] <jepler> yes I assume there are worse hacks required there
[13:09:46] <mhaberler> I worked around most of those, one seems outstanding
[13:09:57] <jepler> move starting of linuxcncsvr, and use two different .nml files?
[13:10:09] <mhaberler> HAL/RTAPI us pretty cleanly separated by proper management of shm keys
[13:10:41] <mhaberler> that is an option I havent tried yet; I wanted it to offset all ports, shmids etc by $INSTANCE
[13:10:47] <mhaberler> might work though
[13:11:30] <mhaberler> this is universal for userlandRT threads; so you can have say a few sim (posix) instances and some xeno-user instances in parallel
[13:11:44] <mhaberler> including kthreads is next to impossible
[13:11:59] <mhaberler> except one - that'd be ships in the night
[13:12:19] <jepler> I can see where the userspace model is much easier to adapt to multiple instances!
[13:12:37] <mhaberler> just separate rtapi_app's - done
[13:12:43] <mhaberler> cant do that in-kernel
[13:13:03] <mhaberler> but not much point either
[13:13:56] <skunkworks> wait - you could run 2 machines separatly from the same computer?
[13:14:08] <skunkworks> or how many you want
[13:15:24] <mhaberler> 1.255
[13:15:32] <mhaberler> ah, you solved the riddle ;)
[13:15:58] <skunkworks> Only 1 cup of coffee so far
[13:16:02] <skunkworks> Neat work!
[13:16:06] <mhaberler> not that the performance improves, but cores are thrown at us
[13:16:46] <mhaberler> I really did this so I could runtests Seb's glacially slow runtests in parallel ;)
[13:20:28] <skunkworks> heh
[13:20:45] <skunkworks> only 255? ;)
[13:21:07] <mhaberler> just fine for garden sprinklers
[13:21:21] <mhaberler> how bug garden ;-?
[13:22:35] <mhaberler> bug/big
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[14:08:11] <jepler> mhaberler: parallel runtests sounds interesting
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[14:08:57] <mhaberler> yes, it's 'INSTANCE=n foo', done - modulo the remaining NML issue
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[14:18:18] <skunkworks> I thought initally emc was supposed to do multible instances.. but that got lost along the way?
[14:18:31] <skunkworks> or never fully implimented..
[14:19:07] <skunkworks> and it is funny how nml is the final issue as that has been in emc from the begining the way I understand it.
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[14:48:10] <mhaberler> it will be also my 'final issue' when I'm done with post-Regean-ara brushup of emc ;)
[14:49:06] <mhaberler> I mean the basic infrastructure, not that nothing has happened ontop
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[16:05:28] <cncbasher> Does anybody know how to make A axis independent / decoupled from XYZ
[16:05:50] <cradek> need more details about what you are trying to do please
[16:06:15] <cncbasher> ha i thought that would be the case .. pick and place head
[16:06:47] <skunkworks> still more details.. ;)
[16:06:58] <cncbasher> rotation of the axis independant of the trajactory
[16:07:36] <cradek> it doesn't obviously follow from your use case why you want that - please explain more
[16:08:09] <cncbasher> and not coupled to the trajectory in movement as it at the moment links to the lowest speed ,
[16:09:16] <cncbasher> that A axis is not independent.
[16:09:17] <cncbasher> So while I move the head, I can not rotate at the same time. Rotation axis is slower than the gantry (for resolution purpose, and should not / can not run faster).
[16:09:17] <cncbasher> For example if I have to rotate 180 degree, it can actually be slower than the movements of the gantry.
[16:09:17] <cncbasher> Linuxcnc calculates the whole trajectory and the slower axis wins.
[16:09:17] <cncbasher> The same thing happens for the next part to pick, the head must rotate back to zero before it can pick the next part.
[16:09:17] <cncbasher> What I want to do is to issue a command asynchronously, for example G09 A00. (say G09 is for asynchronous move)
[16:09:19] <cncbasher> And then I'll continue on with feeding process (the head dragging the tape).
[16:09:21] <cncbasher> So at the same time the A axis should rotate back to zero.
[16:09:23] <cncbasher> Then I'll issue another G00 A00, and since this is synchronous it should wait until it actually reach 00 degree.
[16:10:21] <cradek> if you need to get to the part's target location and the part's target rotation, you have to wait for the slower of the two anyway. coordinated motion does exactly that. I don't understand why you want them uncoupled.
[16:10:57] <cncbasher> the sequence i have in mind is that the part is picked with the vac head and i have a camera taking a view
[16:11:24] <cncbasher> of the part , it then calculates the rotation to match the placement
[16:12:05] <cncbasher> and whilst the x y trajectory is moving the part can be rotated to match the placement pads
[16:12:29] <skunkworks> cncbasher, looks like this guy does the rotation after the linear move...
[16:12:30] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVlad7l9HvI&feature=player_embedded
[16:12:33] <cradek> ok I understand that. a coordinated move sounds perfect for that
[16:12:51] <cradek> you can do both at once, and they will be exactly as fast as possible
[16:14:19] <skunkworks> I would think your rotational axis would have to be super slow to effect the x,y movment...
[16:14:38] <cradek> well either way, both have to finish before you can place the part, right?
[16:14:51] <cncbasher> yes
[16:14:59] <cradek> then uncoordinating them gives you no benefit
[16:15:42] <cncbasher> ok i understand
[16:16:20] <cncbasher> just looking at that video
[16:17:44] <cncbasher> difference is i'll have a camera for orientation of the part in the loop
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[16:20:11] <kwallace1> I guess for PnP, fast axes are a big plus.
[16:20:30] <cncbasher> yea thats what i'm specificly looking for
[16:20:46] <cncbasher> all the ones i have seen appear slow
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[16:52:08] <cradek> scara robot configuration is what you obviously want
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[17:06:27] <cncbasher> yea could be a better solution
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[17:49:48] <mhaberler> fallback to mobile internet :-/
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[18:03:32] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03TODO: deletor 05dynload-rtapi 6c2bec6 06linuxcnc 04. * branch deleted
[18:04:26] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi 1bc8045 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/rt-preempt-user.c 10rtapi/rtapi_time.c 10rtapi/xenomai-kernel.c 10rtapi/xenomai-user.c * rtapi: silence compiler warnings about rtapi_delay_hook
[18:04:26] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi a222945 06linuxcnc 03src/rtapi/xeno_math/.gitignore * .gitignore build artifacts in rtapi/xeno_math
[18:04:30] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi d487419 06linuxcnc 10lib/python/.gitignore 10src/.gitignore * .gitignore linuxcncconfig.py droppings
[18:04:37] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 834f41e 06linuxcnc 10scripts/rtapi.conf.in 10src/Makefile.inc.in 10src/Makefile.modinc.in 10src/configure.in * configure: add GIT_VERSION tag in config.h, Makefine.*inc, rtapi.conf
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[18:04:45] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 5b99e83 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/Submakefile 03rtapi/flavor1.c 03rtapi/rtapi_flavor.h 03rtapi/rtapi_load.c * rtapi flavor loading example
[18:04:52] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi ab884ac 06linuxcnc 10src/ 03rtapi/rtapi_kdetect.c 03rtapi/rtapi_kdetect.h * import kdetect
[18:04:58] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi a85b471 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10hal/hal.h 10hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib: introduce constructors, hal_rtapi_attach()/hal_rtapi_detach()
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[18:05:05] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi c4f4ebb 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib: remove refcounting scheme
[18:05:11] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi d5f2cde 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/sim_rtapi_app.cc * rtapi_app: carry over from rtapi-startup-sequencing
[18:05:18] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 0bb484e 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10Makefile 03rtapi/rtapi_main.c * rtapi.so: add rtapi_app_main/rtapi_app_exit stubs
[18:05:25] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 9f8cfbf 06linuxcnc 10scripts/realtime.in 10src/hal/hal_lib.c 10src/rtapi/rtapi_main.c * catch up commit before me crashing
[18:05:32] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi b865aa3 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(11 files in 2 dirs) * rtapi: herd all rtapi_*() calls through rtapi_switch for universal binary
[18:05:39] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 6614384 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(7 files) * rtapi: dont EXPORT_SYMBOL anything except rtapi_switch
[18:05:45] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi f699d3e 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_shmem.c * rtapi_shmem: fix typo
[18:05:51] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 4fa3e00 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(7 files) * rtapi: remove all exported symbols except rtapi_switch
[18:05:58] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 95cc1a0 06linuxcnc 10src/emc/motion/stashf.c * stashf.c: include rtapi.h to get proper symbol visibility
[18:06:04] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi e804463 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/Submakefile * rtapi: build ulapi.so
[18:06:10] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 4fd0f3d 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10hal/Submakefile 10hal/hal_lib.c * hal: remove ULAPI objects from hal_lib link
[18:06:17] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi a6bc209 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/Submakefile 10rtapi/rtapi.h 10rtapi/rtapi_common.c * rtapi: make rtapi functions go through a pointer, not a struct ref
[18:06:24] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi b5c5a14 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10hal/Submakefile 10hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib/ULAPI: dynload ulapi.os - first round
[18:06:31] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi a7198ec 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_proc.h * rtapi: export rtapi_dir
[18:06:37] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi b9bf85f 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib.c: touchups
[18:06:43] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 96af959 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib.c: TODO note
[18:06:49] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 0281726 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10hal/hal_lib.c 10rtapi/rtapi.h 10rtapi/rtapi_common.c 10rtapi/rtapi_main.c * rtapi, hal_lib: add GIT_VERSION string, sanity checks
[18:06:56] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi c27878f 06linuxcnc 10src/configure.in * configure: fix usage of get-version-from-git
[18:07:03] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi 62a513a 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/rtapi.h 10rtapi/rtapi_common.c * rtapi_switch struct same length in both RTAPI and ULAPI w/dummy placeholder
[18:07:10] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 10398fb 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10Makefile 10rtapi/rtapi.h 03rtapi/rtapi_compat.c 10rtapi/rtapi_main.c * rtapi/userland threads: add kernel compatibility checks at startup
[18:07:18] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi 5b8b367 06linuxcnc 10src/configure.in * configure.in: detect kernel headers in standard RedHat distro location
[18:07:24] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 1176622 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/xenomai-kernel.c * xenomai-kernel: fix rtapi_clock_set_period()
[18:07:31] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 12aa554 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib/ULAPI: add tentative ulapi/kernel compatibility checks
[18:07:37] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi cb7f62f 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(6 files) * rtapi: Replace rev_code with serial
[18:07:44] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi a56ee9b 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(9 files) * rtapi: add thread_flavor_id enum
[18:07:50] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi d3ec520 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(12 files) * rtapi: introduce global shared memory segment
[18:07:56] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 4710715 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/xeno_math/libm.c 10rtapi/xenomai-kernel.c * xenomai-kernel: fix suspicious memory allocation options, xeno_math touchups
[18:08:03] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 7b7bd04 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/rtapi_common.c 10rtapi/rtapi_common.h 10rtapi/rtapi_module.c * init rulapidata
[18:08:10] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 2e0e738 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rt-preempt-user.c * rtapi/rt-preempt-user: simplify and intruduce rulapi segment
[18:08:17] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 686d365 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/sim_rtapi_app.cc * rtapi_app: only complain about pagefaults if there were any
[18:08:24] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi fceed90 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_main.c * rtapi/userland: make sure rulapi_data gets zeroed on segment detach
[18:08:30] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi ed46f8e 06linuxcnc 10scripts/linuxcnc.in 10scripts/realtime.in 10src/rtapi/rtapi_main.c * touchups
[18:08:37] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi 61cde0a 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(6 files) * rtapi: Replace rev_code with serial
[18:08:43] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03john 05dynload-rtapi b7fa583 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(9 files) * rtapi: add thread_flavor_id enum
[18:08:49] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 33b12e5 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(11 files in 2 dirs) * rtapi: reshuffle THREAD_FLAVOR_ID
[18:08:56] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi b7fc472 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_main.c * rtapi_main: relax compatibility checks
[18:09:02] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 1f95789 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_module.c * rtapi_module: cosmetics
[18:09:08] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi a30f868 06linuxcnc 10(13 files in 2 dirs) * the big rename: rulapi becomes 'global'
[18:09:14] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi a1da3f6 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/README 10rtapi/rt-preempt-user.h 10rtapi/rtapi.h 10rtapi/rtapi_common.c * Merge branch 'rulapi-rename' into dynload-rtapi
[18:09:22] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 4e5f042 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10Makefile 10Makefile.modinc.in * kbuild: make sure FLAVOR_FLAGS get passed to kernel module build
[18:09:29] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi d4cbdb2 06linuxcnc 10src/configure.in * src/configure: provide sensible default for XENO_CONFIG
[18:09:35] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 2841857 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(8 files in 3 dirs) * src/rtapi: remove fifo, semaphore, extint examples
[18:09:42] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 0d75633 06linuxcnc 10(15 files in 4 dirs) * summary: rtapi_init() needs an API change:
[18:09:48] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 421ef6b 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_compat.c * rtapi_compat.c: remove wrong error trap
[18:09:54] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi c4dd7f3 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_module.c * rtapi: assure global_data is invalidated on shm detach
[18:10:01] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 9d33489 06linuxcnc 10src/hal/hal_lib.c * hal_lib: global_data must be universally visible
[18:10:07] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 95a5106 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/xenomai-kernel.c * xenomai-kernel: do it once only
[18:10:13] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 7744fd8 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_module.c * rtapi/cleanup_module: assume the heap is gone
[18:10:20] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 7570959 06linuxcnc 10(15 files in 8 dirs) * rtapi_init: introduce global parameter
[18:10:25] <jepler> pew pew pew
[18:10:26] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 6262eab 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rt-preempt-user.c * rt-preempt-user.c: remove unused #define
[18:10:32] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi f533d90 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10(11 files in 7 dirs) * unified shmkey management: collect into rtapi_shmkeys.h
[18:10:39] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 5f498a2 06linuxcnc 10(11 files in 4 dirs) * rtapi/hal: enable multiple instances
[18:10:45] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi af48293 06linuxcnc 10src/libnml/ 10cms/cms.cc 10os_intf/_sem.c 10os_intf/_shm.c * NML: try to force multi-instance capability onto this NML thing
[18:10:53] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 9ecf987 06linuxcnc 10scripts/realtime.in 10src/libnml/os_intf/_shm.c * shut up debug noise
[18:10:59] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi f265146 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_main.c * rtapi_main: improve message
[18:11:05] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi bb11496 06linuxcnc 10scripts/realtime.in * realtime: improve shutdown - hit the right segments
[18:11:12] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi b830c40 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtapi_module.c * rtapi_module: fix type inconsistency
[18:11:18] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi f49bf76 06linuxcnc 03src/rtapi/ulapi_main.c * rtapi: add missing ulapi_main.c
[18:11:24] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 05be386 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/rtapi_task.c 10rtapi/xenomai-kernel.c * rtapi: disambiguate thread names by instance, xenomai shm names
[18:11:31] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi ee99dd6 06linuxcnc 10src/rtapi/rtai-kernel.c * rtapi/rtai: rework to play with new shm key allocation scheme
[18:11:38] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi be954ae 06linuxcnc 10scripts/realtime.in * realtime: pass parameters if rtapi.ko is loaded
[18:11:44] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05dynload-rtapi 484156e 06linuxcnc 10src/ 10rtapi/rtapi_module.c 10rtapi/ulapi_main.c * rtapi: cosmetics
[18:20:36] <linuxcnc-build> build #854 of hardy-amd64-sim is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/hardy-amd64-sim/builds/854 blamelist: John Morris <john@zultron.com>, Michael Haberler <git@mah.priv.at>
[18:20:44] <linuxcnc-build> build #851 of hardy-amd64-realtime-rip is complete: Failure [4failed compile] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/hardy-amd64-realtime-rip/builds/851 blamelist: John Morris <john@zultron.com>, Michael Haberler <git@mah.priv.at>
[18:21:06] <zultron> I'm working on it already sheesh
[18:21:13] <cradek> haha
[18:21:35] <cradek> "blamelist:" is so impolite
[18:21:49] <zultron> I feel so guilty.
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[18:59:37] <linuxcnc-build> build #850 of checkin is complete: Failure [4failed] Build details are at
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/checkin/builds/850 blamelist: John Morris <john@zultron.com>, Michael Haberler <git@mah.priv.at>
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[23:30:03] <zultron> Trying to configure a pbuilder to test pkg builds for hardy, but the LinuxCNC prereqs fail to install.
[23:30:15] <zultron> texlive-base-bin fails with this message:
[23:30:25] <zultron> # !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[23:30:25] <zultron> # ! You are attempting to make a LaTeX format from a source file
[23:30:25] <zultron> # ! That is more than five years old.
[23:30:25] <zultron> # !
[23:30:25] <zultron> # ! If you enter <return> to scroll past this message then the format
[23:30:28] <zultron> # ! will be built, but please consider obtaining newer source files
[23:30:30] <zultron> # ! before continuing to build LaTeX.
[23:30:33] <zultron> # !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[23:30:35] <zultron> ('#' characters added by me)
[23:31:40] <zultron> seb_kuzminsky, are you testing with pbuilder, and if so, how did you work around this?
[23:32:25] <andypugh> It looks like pressing "return" might be the solution?
[23:33:00] <zultron> This is pbuilder, all automated.
[23:33:19] <andypugh> Ah, I shall crawl back under my rock :-)
[23:33:26] <zultron> Basically, hardy's too old to even install anymore. :P
[23:34:06] <andypugh> I would guess at looking for a texlive switch
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[23:34:55] <zultron> Well, again, this is supposed to 'just work'. The failure is during installing the texlive-base-bin .deb.
[23:35:41] <zultron> If I wanted to appeal to someone to stop this madness of building for antique distro releases, who would that be?
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[23:39:16] <andypugh> seb :-)
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