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[13:47:48] <jthornton> jepler, after some testing I don't think the problem with gremlin has anything to do with gremlin.py as the error only occurs when you use the GladeVCP packaged gremlin
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[13:48:55] <jthornton> I think I'll try and figure out how to use gremlin.py instead of the GladeVCP widget
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[14:08:30] <jthornton> does Axis use gremlin?
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[14:56:45] <jepler> jthornton: my level of knowledge of gladevcp is pretty near zero so I'm unlikely to be able to help. sorry.
[14:57:26] <jthornton> I was just wondering if gremlin.py was used by Axis to display the back plot?
[14:57:49] <jepler> the idea of gremlin was to make the code originally written by Axis reusable in other GUIs
[14:58:13] <jthornton> ok, thanks
[14:58:27] <jepler> I think the specific file gremlin.py is not used in AXIS
[15:09:52] <psha[work]> it's not used really, only in gladevcp
[15:11:02] <jepler> psha[work]: which is where we started, with jt's report that he's getting python tracebacks and it's not working..
[15:12:02] <psha[work]> gladevcp gremlin is just a thin wrapper around gremlin.py
[15:13:58] <jepler> the only other thing I can contribute is that configs/gladevcp/touchy.ini (which incorporates some gremlin previews) doesn't get the same traceback as jt reported a few days ago here on irc
[15:14:14] <jepler> .. though there's something wonky with the setup, because I don't get any part programs listed under the "auto" tab, so I can't test what happens when I load a part program.
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[15:17:31] <jepler> ah, fixed (pointing at an unexpected nc_files directory) .. preview works in gladevcp/touchy
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[15:37:38] <JT-Shop> what did you change?
[15:38:13] <jepler> I had to put some .ngc files in ~/linuxcnc/nc_files even though PROGRAM_PREFIX in touchy.ini seemed to name some other directory
[15:38:28] <JT-Shop> ok
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[15:54:08] <elk> new to linuxcnc: I noticed rtapi_app_main() is used for all the hal components, but how are all of these components loaded initially?
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[15:57:31] <seb_kuzminsky> elk: they're loaded via 'halcmd loadrt'
[15:57:50] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: hi! long time no see!
[15:58:12] <seb_kuzminsky> elk: there's a script called 'linuxcnc' that starts everything.
[15:58:13] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: I was travelling. It was fun.
[15:58:32] <seb_kuzminsky> you give it the name of a .ini file, and it specifies within it the name(s) of one or more .hal files
[15:58:37] <seb_kuzminsky> those .hal files get interpreted by halcmd
[15:58:48] <seb_kuzminsky> the loadrt command in those .hal files load the modules
[15:59:18] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: yeah i saw your pics, looks like a great trip
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[16:02:53] <elk> oh ok, let me take a look at the linuxcnc script then thanks
[16:03:00] <seb_kuzminsky> elk: also take a look at halcmd
[16:04:26] <elk> ok you are referring to halcmd.c?
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[16:09:04] <seb_kuzminsky> ye
[16:09:07] <seb_kuzminsky> yep
[16:21:43] <elk> seb_kuzminsky: another general question I had on my mind is does linuxcnc have a lookahead feature for high speed machining? If so where is that implemented?
[16:22:42] <seb_kuzminsky> i think we do one block look-ahead only, which is somtimes a limitation on speed
[16:22:50] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm not sure where that's implemented. in the part called 'motion', i think
[16:24:34] <skunkworks__> linuxcnc does (when using g64px.xxx) combine short segments into larger ones to keep the velocity up. (segments that deviate less than x.xxx)
[16:26:02] <skunkworks__> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#_g64_path_blending_a_id_sec_g64_path_blending_a
[16:30:00] <elk> is this G64 command truly a look ahead though? Other controls have 1000 line look ahead, I wonder if this is something that can be implemented in linuxcnc, or if that would be a difficult task
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[16:56:17] <elk> seb_kuzminsky: I found linuxcnc.in, what calls this script, is this loaded by the user once when first setting up the system?
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[17:05:24] <seb_kuzminsky> linuxcnc.in is transformed into linuxcnc by some tool at build time
[17:05:54] <seb_kuzminsky> then the linuxcnc script is what the user runs (by hand or by clicking on an icon on the desktop or a menu entry in the start menu
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[17:14:58] <elk> oh ok great, thanks
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[17:45:16] <elk> I would like use linuxcnc with smart drives (servo drives that can take a position as input or velocity as input) that has built in PID control loops (so it will go to any position that I tell it to go to) would it be more advantageous to disable the amplifier control loop and use the PID that exists within EMC, or is it better to lighten the burden on EMC and just provide positions (letting the amplifier handle the control loop
[17:45:21] <elk> any thoughts?
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[18:03:07] <seb_kuzminsky> elk: there's no easy way to use smart drives, linuxcnc is designed to do all the smarts itself
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[18:04:43] <seb_kuzminsky> elk:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[18:04:43] <elk> oh ok sounds good
[18:05:11] <seb_kuzminsky> if you can send them a target position you might be able to do it, but i dont know how well it would work
[18:05:44] <seb_kuzminsky> let linuxcnc's motion planner do the planning and tell you the *current* desired location for each axis
[18:05:54] <seb_kuzminsky> then send that current position command to the smart drive
[18:06:04] <cradek> if you're at 0,0 and you send the smart drives the next position 1,2 what makes you get a straight diagonal line with this setup?
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[18:07:17] <cradek> with velocity mode of course it works
[18:07:22] <elk> Well, I would be delivering a position change every x nanoseconds
[18:07:27] <elk> x being something very small
[18:07:35] <seb_kuzminsky> elk: that might work
[18:07:44] <elk> so the planning is doen by emc and the drive jsut gets there
[18:08:09] <elk> With that said though, I can treat the smart drive as a "dumb" one and just send my commands, but at least I can take advantage of the smart drive's fine interpolation and possibly communication through ethernet in the future
[18:08:22] <seb_kuzminsky> you can get the current desired location from linuxcnc's motion planner, it's on the axis.N.joint-pos-cmd pins
[18:08:49] <cradek> the equivalent of "fine interpolation" is what velocity mode gives you in the traditional configuration
[18:08:54] <elk> OK, I see
[18:09:04] <cradek> between servo cycle updates, the drives keep the motor moving smoothly at the commanded velocity
[18:09:29] <elk> So, now the question is whetehr to use velocity commands or position commands haha
[18:09:53] <cradek> the answer is absolutely to use velocity commands with a position pid loop in hal
[18:10:26] <elk> OK, so I should not use axis.N.joint-pos-cmd
[18:10:34] <seb_kuzminsky> sorry!
[18:10:38] <elk> What is the equivalent for velocity?
[18:10:48] <cradek> that gets hooked to your pid loop
[18:10:51] <cradek> that gets hooked to your pid input
[18:11:00] <elk> No problem, it is an odd question, but something that seems to be an interesting experiment
[18:11:02] <cradek> velocity command is the output of the pid
[18:11:41] <elk> Yeah I saw that, I was just wondering if you knew off the top of your head where to find that though
[18:11:50] <elk> I can get it though
[18:11:53] <cradek> find what?
[18:12:06] <seb_kuzminsky> oh, and i think you should be using .motor-pos-cmd, not .joint-pos-cmd (joint has a bunch of offsets applied to it that you dont want)
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[18:12:37] <elk> The actual registers that are created to hold the velocity commands that are output from the PID
[18:12:54] <elk> oh ok
[18:13:03] <cradek> however it's set up in the oodles of servo sample configs is what you want :-)
[18:13:03] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[18:13:12] <cradek> or what pncconf generates
[18:16:45] <elk> OK great
[18:17:00] <elk> Gee, you guys are great. Thanks for the help
[18:17:41] <cradek> welcome!
[18:18:09] <cradek> oh hey - the other thing you get with velocity mode is index homing. that's a problem in position modes because the position value has to jump to zero at index.
[18:18:29] <cradek> but if the position is all inside hal and never connected to the outside world, it's handled
[18:19:10] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03jthornton 05v2.5_branch 6f3d8fb 06emc2 10docs/src/gcode/m-code.txt * Docs: add example connection
[18:19:10] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03jthornton 05v2.5_branch 02e7afa 06emc2 10docs/src/hal/components.txt * Docs: remove markup that caused crazy indentations in the html
[18:24:09] <elk> OK
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[19:00:21] <elk> besides using position/velocity control has anyone ever used torque control modes with the amplifiers?
[19:01:16] <cradek> yes many many people
[19:01:44] <cradek> I think all the pico setups are torque mode
[19:02:36] <elk> oh ok, so as opposed to getting the velocity from the output of the pid, is velocity fed into the PID, and the torque the output of the PID loop in that case?
[19:03:19] <cradek> no, always position is what gets sent into pid. otherwise there's nothing to ultimately drive position to the right place.
[19:03:41] <cradek> pure velocity control would always creep
[19:04:26] <elk> so is torque control done on the amplifier itself and has nothing to do with the control?
[19:04:44] <elk> I have the option of posiition mode, velocity mode, or torque mode for my drive
[19:04:57] <elk> i was wondeirng how I would feed the drive torque commands
[19:06:51] <cradek> through the same old analog input I assume
[19:07:11] <cradek> it'd be the output of a pid in hal again. the tuning would be different but the hal setup would be similar
[19:07:28] <cradek> velocity mode is the clear winner among those options
[19:08:12] <elk> ok good, velocity mode will be used then
[19:08:44] <cradek> ac servos? or tach or encoder velocity feedback to the amps?
[19:09:40] <elk> position encoder feedback to the amps, million pulse encoder
[19:09:52] <cradek> aha
[19:09:53] <elk> bldc's i believe
[19:10:44] <elk> AC servo
[19:10:44] <cradek> so I suppose the amp has encoder output to go to the control
[19:11:06] <elk> yes it does
[19:11:43] <cradek> perfect
[19:12:13] <cradek> be aware you have to tune the velocity loop at/in the amp itself, and after that you will have an easy time tuning the position loop in hal
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[19:13:05] <elk> ok, I will keep that in mind
[19:13:27] <cradek> many folks start by trying to tune the position loop, when the amp itself is untuned (and oscillating or something)
[19:13:39] <cradek> this of course is a frustrating dead end
[19:14:56] <cradek> on my old machine you do the amp tuning by moving jumpers and/or soldering/unsoldering capacitors
[19:15:12] <cradek> so I can see why people want to skip that step :-)
[19:15:22] <elk> oh ok that is a lot of work
[19:15:47] <elk> has anyone written a document that describes how the linuxccnc code works together? I have broken down the task code, but I'm trying to see the big picture as far as which functions are called when and how they interact with each other. Is this a matter of just going through all the code, or has someone already broken it down somewhat
[19:16:07] <elk> I'd like to understand the entire system so I can add some functionality
[19:17:15] <cradek> I don't know of a document like that. sometimes asking specific questions can help you get that kind of insight, but even after many years I'm not sure I have it
[19:17:38] <elk> haha ok, looks like I'll be going through some code and coming up with questions then
[19:29:52] <seb_kuzminsky> elk: we have this:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/html/code/Code_Notes.html
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[19:31:59] <elk> ok great, I believe I saw this document before, I will look at it again
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[19:42:31] <seb_kuzminsky> it's not great but it's what we have
[19:42:35] <seb_kuzminsky> if you find any bugs or missing info, send us a patch ;-)
[19:50:03] <elk> ok I will definitely do that
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[19:51:18] <elk> i noticed from watching the videos that people have posted that the feed rates are pretty slow compared to other machine tools, what is limiting the speed in the controller? I'm talking about a G00 command not a g01 or 2 or 3
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[19:51:42] <seb_kuzminsky> g0 is limited by the speed of the machine itself, not by linuxcnc
[19:52:17] <seb_kuzminsky> the g0 speed is called the 'rapid' or 'traverse' rate, not the feed rate ;-)
[19:59:05] <elk> oh ok great, the mechanism is what is limiting then
[19:59:40] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah
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[20:20:35] <andypugh> I have seen a few extremely fast machines.
[20:21:53] <andypugh> But you need power and rigidity and money.
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