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[00:34:53] <cradek> mhaberler: the -j6 failure is a symptom of the incomplete or incorrect dependency information. in this case you can expect it to fall over randomly, especially when something else is changed. it is not a -j problem.
[00:35:17] <mhaberler> ok
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[02:17:29] <mhaberler> cradek: I have a question on the tp
[02:18:20] <mhaberler> assume a servo period is late - does the tp account for the delay in computing the next target position, or does it assume isochronous servo periods?
[02:19:18] <cradek> let me ponder that question
[02:19:39] <mhaberler> was it clear?
[02:20:29] <mhaberler> iow: does servo period jitter have *any* impact on the path other than sampling *distance*, not accuracy?
[02:20:57] <cradek> I think I understood the question before the IOW...
[02:21:20] <mhaberler> ok, strike oit z
[02:21:29] <mhaberler> strike out the last sentence;)
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[02:22:02] <cradek> pretty sure the answer is that the TP spits out a new point every time it's run, and these points are all equidistant along the line (assume a single line path)
[02:22:29] <cradek> if you have jitter maybe it depends how you use these points
[02:24:05] <mhaberler> lets make an example: straight line.
[02:24:24] <mhaberler> case a) no jitter -> spacing equidistant
[02:25:12] <mhaberler> case b): jitter - spacing *still* equidistant or has the time warp been accounted for?
[02:25:13] <cradek> dx is constant; if dt varies, dx/dt will not be smooth
[02:25:32] <cradek> you are talking about a varying dt, yes?
[02:25:36] <mhaberler> you mean constant speed?
[02:25:43] <mhaberler> yes, vary dt
[02:26:09] <cradek> every traj cycle, the position output steps by one fixed dx
[02:26:35] <mhaberler> why not speed * actual_time?
[02:27:22] <cradek> well the calculation is position...
[02:28:08] <mhaberler> staying with line example, constant velocity.
[02:28:24] <cradek> there are big problems with any "late" period as you surely see right away
[02:29:09] <mhaberler> so, where? we're well beyond the cutoff frequency of any servo system or hardware anyway
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[02:29:24] <cradek> what's your goal here?
[02:30:04] <mhaberler> My goal is to try to figure out what impact if any jitter has on actual machine accuracy
[02:30:16] <cradek> ah, interesting question
[02:30:46] <mhaberler> that is not an urgent question, and probably a hard one, so no hurry
[02:30:47] <cradek> pid is somewhat tolerant, and you are right low bandwidth machinery can "smooth" a bit of jitter
[02:30:58] <cradek> yes it seems hard to figure out
[02:31:32] <cradek> I think the mesa hardware stepgen is extra-untolerant of jitter, but I don't understand why
[02:31:34] <mhaberler> I would take the argument that randomness in timing injects noise into a control loop,
[02:31:40] <cradek> (maybe all the hardware stepgens? dunno)
[02:32:07] <mhaberler> forget steppers, we're talking commanded position
[02:32:32] <cradek> well I thought you were talking about real world machines, that's why I asked
[02:32:40] <mhaberler> I said servo-period on purpose, the stepgen stuff is a different issue
[02:33:08] <mhaberler> yes, real world machines. I want to understand the impact of servo thread jitter.
[02:33:20] <skunkworks_> hardware stepgens use the servo period... (pretty much act like servos to llinuxcnc)
[02:33:27] <cradek> well normal velocity mode servo amps do very nearly the same thing as a stepgen that's independently pulsing at a certain rate. I'm not sure they're much different.
[02:33:44] <cradek> yes to what skunkworks_ says
[02:34:12] <cradek> you expect it to be dx/dt along on the next period, but dt varies, so pid adjusts
[02:34:24] <cradek> brb, oatmeal
[02:34:43] <mhaberler> skunkworks: 'use the servo period' means 'take input of command position at servo period intervals'?
[02:34:50] <mhaberler> enjoy
[02:35:27] <mhaberler> my point is: if dt is accounted for, the servo loop has nothing to adjust
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[02:41:50] <cradek> I would sure enjoy seeing the results of that modification, but I'd warn you to try to figure out whether it makes an important real-world difference before you introduce huge entropy to the currently-reliable TP
[02:43:00] <cradek> at first consideration, if a dt is unusually short, it seems easy to tweak the internal model accordingly - if dt is longer than you expect it seems like you can have trouble.
[02:43:20] <mhaberler> hey, I am not talking modifications. I want to understand what is going on, and what the point of these latency discussions actually is. I'm curious, thats all.
[02:44:03] <cradek> I'm curious about it, too
[02:44:44] <cradek> but like you said about mechanical bandwidth - not sure how much difference it could make.
[02:45:16] <mhaberler> back of envelope: we have 1kHz servo period. we have hardware which is a say bacllpark 20-50Hz lowpass. WTF is the impact wether servo period jumps from 0.7 to 1.5kHz?
[02:45:18] <cradek> on my very high accel vmc, I very clearly hear/feel the effect of one rogue servo cycle
[02:46:12] <cradek> previously, a pid/homing buglet caused full dac output for one servo cycle on index reset. this made an incredible bang on the machine
[02:46:43] <mhaberler> it would be interesting to figure out what 'rogue' is. Late? or wrong target position? any other scenarios?
[02:46:59] <mhaberler> well sure, but thats a bug
[02:47:08] <mhaberler> its not a conceptual issue
[02:47:21] <cradek> my only point is, each servo cycle counts on this machine
[02:47:46] <cradek> so you can't really say this machine has a 20-50Hz mechanical lowpass
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[02:48:40] <mhaberler> but it does have a cutoff frequency which is below servoperiod * 0.5
[02:48:49] <mhaberler> (sampling theorem)
[02:48:52] <cradek> anything other than those gut/observation-based "calculations" is outside my realm of expertise
[02:50:08] <mhaberler> sampling theorem says: as long as you are well beyond 2*cutoff frequency, you can reproduce the original signal
[02:50:12] <cradek> brb again
[02:50:21] <cradek> too many things going on...
[02:50:26] <mhaberler> the phone system is living proof ;)
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[02:59:08] <mhaberler> do a grep cycle_time in src/emc/kinematics
[02:59:41] <mhaberler> I am very sure the tp does not account for actual dt; it assumes fixed dt
[03:00:49] <mhaberler> here is a thought experiment:
[03:02:07] <mhaberler> assume we had a servo thread with adjustable jitter (just a noise component)
[03:03:07] <mhaberler> now do a mod of the tp such that it takes the actual dt into account, which should come in as an argument in the thread function (or use the tsc, whatever to get actual time)
[03:04:34] <mhaberler> next, we plot following error over time. I am very sure the time-corrected tp would have stable following error as with the current tp it would increase with the amount of noise injected into servo timing
[03:07:28] <mhaberler> I think it could be fully simulated without a machine, this is basic control theory
[03:08:42] <mhaberler> ok, the local MBA hits the sack - good night
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[03:09:05] <seb_kuzminsky> mhaberler, cradek: i did an experiment along the lines you're talking about, about a year ago
[03:09:10] <seb_kuzminsky> http://git.highlab.com/?p=emc2.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/actual-period
[03:09:17] <seb_kuzminsky> d'oh, just missed him
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[03:42:59] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: do you have git://?
[03:44:20] <cradek> I can't seem to guess the url to add your remote
[03:45:05] <cradek> (I thought gitweb showed you that...?)
[03:47:28] <cradek> goodnight!
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[04:44:28] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03seb 05build-on-quantal 88c9300 06emc2 10debian/configure * add debian config for Ubuntu 12.10 "Quantal Quetzal"
[04:44:28] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03seb 05build-on-quantal fade3e4 06emc2 10src/rtapi/rtapi.h * include stddef.h in rtapi.h, to provide NULL
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[06:07:42] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03seb 05master b933e33 06emc2 10debian/configure * add debian config for Ubuntu 12.10 "Quantal Quetzal"
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[06:07:45] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03seb 05master bab46b2 06emc2 10debian/configure * Merge branch 'v2.5_branch'
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[06:07:57] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03seb 05v2.5_branch 4a59aaf 06emc2 10src/rtapi/rtapi.h * include stddef.h in rtapi.h, to provide NULL
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[16:07:06] <kwallace> Hello, I'm having trouble getting RTAI/LinuxCNC installed to Debian Squeeze.
[16:07:17] <kwallace> I'm using:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Debian_Lenny_Compile_RTAI as a model, but I haven't gotten it to work.
[16:07:30] <kwallace> Basically, it seems that I need to get the installed kernel source, get the RTAI source, then a patch from Debian that modifies RTAI to be compatible with Debian.
[16:07:45] <kwallace> It also looks like there are newer versions of theses packages, than are in the example wiki page. Should I try to use the latest version?
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[18:21:22] <kwallace> root@desktop-v2:~# aptitude --disable-columns search linux-source
[18:21:23] <kwallace> v linux-source -
[18:21:23] <kwallace> p linux-source-2.6 - Linux kernel source for Linux 2.6 (meta-package)
[18:21:23] <kwallace> i linux-source-2.6.32 - Linux kernel source for version 2.6.32 with Debian patches
[18:21:40] <kwallace> What is a meta-package?
[18:23:13] <seb_kuzminsky> it's a package that doesn't install any files, but instead pulls in other packages to provide files
[18:23:51] <seb_kuzminsky> linux-source-2.6 is a meta-package that depends on one of the real 2.6 kernel source packages
[18:24:07] <alex4nder> kwallace: building an RTAI kernel/userspace on top of debian is pretty straight forward using the RTAI patches, checking out linuxcnc, and making minor tweaks to the build.
[18:24:29] <kwallace> aptitude shows that it is not installed. Do I need it?
[18:24:31] <seb_kuzminsky> that way if debian decides to update from 2.6.32 to 2.6.33, they can just change the meta-package to point at the .33 kernel source, and that way ensure that all users have the 'correct' kernel source installed
[18:25:06] <seb_kuzminsky> kwallace: you don't need the meta-package
[18:25:20] <andypugh> Are there any docs for mb2hal?
[18:26:42] <kwallace> alex4nder: I tried this:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Debian_Lenny_Compile_RTAI, but haven't gotten any success yet.
[18:27:46] <kwallace> I'm going through this right now:
[18:27:50] <kwallace> http://users.wowway.com/~zlinuxman/Kernel.htm
[18:28:13] <alex4nder> kwallace: right, just follow the debian RTAI process.. there's a patch package.
[18:29:15] <kwallace> But the wiki example uses Lenny and I am trying Squeeze.
[18:29:58] <alex4nder> yah, ignore the wiki for teh RTAI bit, and use the debian packaged patches
[18:30:01] <alex4nder> that's what I did
[18:31:08] <seb_kuzminsky> andypugh: there's a readme in the mb2hal directory i think
[18:31:22] <seb_kuzminsky> imo mb2hal shouldn't have been merged, it was not ready...
[18:31:29] <seb_kuzminsky> but oh well
[18:33:27] <kwallace> At this point, I'll be happy to compile the present kernel, let alone any patching. I like to take a step, test it, take another step.
[18:34:31] <alex4nder> that's easy with debian
[18:34:33] <alex4nder> just make the kpkg
[18:34:41] <andypugh> seb_kuzminsky: Well, I wasn't planning on using it. Some guy wants to control some smart-drives through RS422. He might actually be better off with Mach, mush as I hate to suggest it.
[18:34:55] <seb_kuzminsky> blasphemy!
[18:35:03] <seb_kuzminsky> why would that be?
[18:36:09] <andypugh> Because the drives want to be told endpoints, not a trajectory.
[18:36:40] <andypugh> And are unlikely to be too happy to be given a new endpoint every mS.
[18:36:50] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[18:36:52] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah :-(
[18:37:01] <andypugh> If the comms protocol even allows a new endpoint down the serial link
[18:37:08] <kwallace> alex4nder: Okay, I'll need to check into kpkg. Thanks.
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[19:04:37] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: around?
[19:04:47] <alex_joni> I sent you a memo, but to skunkworks, not skunkworks_
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[19:05:42] <skunkworks_> huh - wonder where I am logged in as skunkworks
[19:05:50] <skunkworks_> oh - my laptop is on
[19:05:52] <alex_joni> ;)
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[19:44:45] <andypugh> If the tooltable was a persistent database, would you still have a tool table file?
[19:50:39] <cradek> doubt it. you'd use a special application of some kind to edit it.
[19:51:03] <cradek> or, likely some kind of screen inside linuxcnc
[19:52:00] <cradek> I can imagine a screen that shows you all the fields, and if you poke one, it would fill out the right mdi command for you to edit it
[19:52:16] <cradek> actually, that's kind of how touchy presents it
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[20:39:26] <andypugh> Just thinking about this tooltable-in-redis idea.
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