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[17:41:41] <IchGuckLive> hi i find this
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/rtcomps.html#_parameters_a_id_stepgen_parameters_a so confusing
[17:41:53] <IchGuckLive> all parameters are in nanaoseconds
[17:42:13] <IchGuckLive> but in all examples there are only numbers 1-3
[17:42:46] <IchGuckLive> steplen,space dirhold
[17:43:15] <IchGuckLive> it is running ok but i need to get a better understanding to get more speed
[17:43:17] <seb_kuzminsky> the numbers in the diagrams are not time, they're the states of the output signals
[17:43:48] <seb_kuzminsky> you mean the pictures down in "Step Type 2-14", right?
[17:43:49] <IchGuckLive> i know the status of the stepgen
[17:44:28] <IchGuckLive> no i mean Example 25k latacy 1500ns steplen
[17:44:42] <cradek> it's shocking how many times "phase" is misspelled in those pictures
[17:45:02] <seb_kuzminsky> heh yeah
[17:45:04] <IchGuckLive> if i calculate with the openoffice calculater i get numbers 1 and 2
[17:45:49] <IchGuckLive> so is this 1 or 2 or is it 1000 2000
[17:46:18] <seb_kuzminsky> IchGuckLive: i'm not sure where you're looking... what's the section title of the confusing example you're talking about?
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[17:46:40] <IchGuckLive> 1.4 parameters
[17:47:06] <IchGuckLive> (float) stepgen.<chan>.steplen
[17:47:19] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont see any examples in "1.4 Parameters"
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[17:47:50] <IchGuckLive> i think internal linuxcnc all this is 1
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[17:48:25] <seb_kuzminsky> you think the steplen parameter is ignored and it always uses 1 nanosecond?
[17:48:43] <IchGuckLive> no
[17:48:54] <IchGuckLive> it is as baseperiod
[17:49:18] <seb_kuzminsky> you think the steplen parameter is in units of the base period, not units of nanoseconds?
[17:49:58] <IchGuckLive> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing this are drive numbers
[17:51:06] <IchGuckLive> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration#Use_steplen_stepspace_dirsetup_and_or_dirhold
[17:51:16] <seb_kuzminsky> the numbers on the Stepper Drive Timing wiki page all look to be in nanoseconds, which seems good
[17:51:17] <IchGuckLive> hewre is the calculation sheet
[17:51:28] <seb_kuzminsky> that way those numbers can got right onto the steplen parameter and things should work
[17:52:00] <IchGuckLive> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/StepTimingCalculatorPlus.ods
[17:52:08] <IchGuckLive> if i add my numbers here
[17:52:30] <IchGuckLive> it gives me a 1 at steplen and stepspace
[17:53:05] <seb_kuzminsky> oh yeah, that Tweaking Software Step Generation page *does* introduce some ambiguity by talking about units of base periods instead of nanoseconds like it does everywhere else
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[17:53:20] <IchGuckLive> so "stepgen.0.steplen 1" shoudt be in the hal
[17:53:27] <IchGuckLive> or 1000
[17:53:34] <seb_kuzminsky> 1 ns steplen is almost certainly too short
[17:53:54] <IchGuckLive> the datasheet sais 1500ns
[17:54:22] <seb_kuzminsky> then that's probably what you should use
[17:54:26] <IchGuckLive> it is realy confusing as stepconf does not add anything here
[17:55:08] <IchGuckLive> maybe i got the wrong stepconf version
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[18:02:43] <IchGuckLive> i updated right now and now there are numbers in the hal
[18:03:07] <seb_kuzminsky> wow, we have three copies of those broken images in our repo
[18:03:21] <seb_kuzminsky> docs/src/hal/images/stepgen-type2-4.*
[18:03:26] <IchGuckLive> setp stepgen.1.steplen 1 --- setp stepgen.1.stepspace 0 setp stepgen.1.dirhold 38000
[18:03:37] <seb_kuzminsky> the svg & png have the pahse mis-spelling, the eps does not have the mis-spelling
[18:03:50] <IchGuckLive> so its more confusing now as i got low and high numbers
[18:04:07] <seb_kuzminsky> IchGuckLive: steplen 1 and stepspace 0 seems wrong to me, is that what the manual said?
[18:04:33] <IchGuckLive> no but stepconf put this into the hal
[18:04:51] <IchGuckLive> i added 1500 into the formular field
[18:05:35] <IchGuckLive> 38000 is what is expectad as i input BASE 30k and diehold 8k
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[18:06:31] <IchGuckLive> as i said bevor some kind of confusing in the Doku to the output
[18:06:43] <IchGuckLive> no matter it works
[18:07:05] <IchGuckLive> G0 full speed no loss or stall
[18:07:52] <IchGuckLive> at 1 and 0
[18:08:19] <seb_kuzminsky> your steplen and stepspace are limited to your base period
[18:08:44] <IchGuckLive> recomendet at th doco the 1 and the 0 shoudt be 1500 or even 31500
[18:08:53] <seb_kuzminsky> you're saying "give me a steplen of 1 ns", but the best linuxcnc can do is round up the steplen to the nearest base period
[18:09:23] <IchGuckLive> so 31500 woudt meed the need
[18:09:28] <seb_kuzminsky> your base period is probably larger than the drive's steplen of 1500ns, so it work for you
[18:10:06] <IchGuckLive> ok
[18:11:12] <IchGuckLive> depending on this numbers i calculate 20ksteps/sec
[18:11:39] <andypugh> With a stepconf step conf the bae period may well be the thread exection time, as it uses "reset" by default.
[18:11:57] <seb_kuzminsky> ah, right
[18:12:03] <IchGuckLive> thats 20k*60 reset is at 1500
[18:12:17] <andypugh> (bae was a typo for "base" which was a wordo for "step")
[18:13:57] <IchGuckLive> 1200k steps /min DIV 100steps/unit shoudt give me 12000mm/mim 12meter
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[18:15:25] <IchGuckLive> thats 200mm/sec =50Rev per sec at the stepper
[18:15:43] <IchGuckLive> i dont think i can meet this
[18:16:09] <IchGuckLive> let me check the max tomorrow
[18:16:26] <IchGuckLive> Thanks
[18:16:44] <IchGuckLive> <- mainchannel
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[18:24:33] <andypugh> I wonder how to answer this: "It would be our pleasure to work with you guys to better highlight both our products and systems. What would be the typical procedures for us to verify/certify compatibility with LinuxCNC?"
[18:25:36] <andypugh> (This is DMM-tech who have a new drive with quadrature feedback and +/-10V control running at $550 per axis for 750W. Which sounds like a bargain to me)
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[18:26:37] <cradek> retrofit a real machine with their products and linuxcnc, and put videos on youtube
[18:28:09] <andypugh> For context, I asked them for pricing, and mentioned that their new drive finally filled the gap that there was with their previous system)
[18:28:37] <cradek> fwiw, my answer isn't snark
[18:28:54] <cradek> also, get on the mailing lists and participate in the community
[18:29:24] <cradek> (if you want some kind of certificate, use your laser printer)
[18:29:40] <cradek> ^ [fwiw, that's snark]
[18:30:59] <andypugh> Did you see that query on the forum from a guy with a rather cute "LinuxCNC compatible" logo he had made, and was wondering about the rights and wrongs of using it? Interesting question, I thought.
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[18:31:36] <cradek> yes, I saw the link you sent me. I'm not sure what the answer is...
[18:31:37] <andypugh> The preceding paragraph from DMM gives a bit more context "We are certainly big fans of LinuxCNC and have been recommending the controller to our customers whenever we can. Like you mentioned, our DYN3-H servo drive's encoder output feature is the last step in achieving a fully closed position loop between the servo drive and the controller. We already have many customers utilizing this feature on their machines,
[18:31:38] <andypugh> whether already on LinuxCNC or dedicated CNC controllers outputting analog control signals and utilizing the encoder output to achieve the position loop."
[18:31:57] <cradek> cool
[18:32:22] <cradek> what position feedback do the amps themselves get? motor resolver or something?
[18:33:01] <andypugh> My guess would be that he is free to use the logo, but it has no "official" meaning, and never really could have without some certification process that we are not about to invent.
[18:33:36] <andypugh> They use a 14-bit absolute magnetic encoder for feedback and commutation.
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[18:33:53] <cradek> that seems awfully likely to be something like the wishywashy kind of answer we'd all like to give
[18:34:03] <cradek> so, yeah
[18:34:17] <cradek> neat. I imagine they construct an index pulse then too?
[18:34:36] <andypugh> I think I saw a Z channel
[18:34:37] <cradek> that's not $550 with motor is it?
[18:34:49] <andypugh> Yes, that's drive + motor
[18:34:55] <cradek> wow...
[18:35:58] <andypugh> The pricing structure of our DYN3-H servo drive and 750W capacity servo motor us as follows: DYN3-H - $298.00 USD. 92M-DHT-72 - $258.00 USD.Total - $556.00 USD. Of course there are optional cables but their pricing is usually only around 10~20$
[18:36:28] <cradek> do they have a website with prices listed?
[18:37:28] <andypugh> http://www.dmm-tech.com/index.html
[18:37:52] <andypugh> They used to have very clear anf pbvious pricing, but the link now says that they are updating the price list.
[18:38:07] <cradek> I hereby require a website with full pricing and datasheets in order to get special cradek linuxcnc certification
[18:39:18] <andypugh> Datasheets are there, and the price list used to be. I have been looking at them for years (because of the pricing) but they have only just produced anything that is a good fit for LinuxCNC.
[18:39:19] <cradek> cool, their amps hook right to mains
[18:40:10] <cradek> looks like first-rate documentation
[18:40:41] <cradek> oh god, windows based tuning software
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[18:41:09] <andypugh> Well, yes, but who doesn't?
[18:41:39] <cradek> bleh
[18:41:45] <andypugh> Looks like the encoder is SPI, so perhaps direct connection to Mesa and 8i20 would work too.
[18:45:11] <andypugh> Didn't "The board" register "LinuxCNC" with The Linux foundation? That might mean that, in principle, they could object to that (different) dude using the logo.
[18:47:27] <cradek> I agree that might be true
[18:49:06] <cradek> if that company wants people to get excited about buying their stuff, a logo isn't going to do any good. they need to participate and let people get used to hearing that their solutions work well.
[18:49:29] <cradek> for instance, you don't see anything about linuxcnc on mesa's website.
[18:49:47] <seb_kuzminsky> i was just going mention peter too :-)
[18:50:49] <cradek> if they want to throw money at it, they could talk to anyone on the list talking about a vmc retrofit and offer them free or discounted hardware in exchange for some nice videos on youtube.
[18:51:06] <andypugh> Just for clarity. The guy with the logo has a web shop selling Mesa cards. Dmm-technology are a company selling motors who just had me email them pointing out that their new product ought to work with LinuxCNC.
[18:51:27] <cradek> ok I understand
[18:51:52] <cradek> but DMM were asking about "verify/certify compatibility"
[18:52:57] <andypugh> Yes, I suspect that they are not aware that we are a decision-averse anarcho-syndicalist collective.
[18:53:15] <cradek> you left out "pragmatic"
[18:53:41] <seb_kuzminsky> and "volunteer"
[18:54:02] <cradek> porting their tuning software would be another thing they could do to help open up this market
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[18:54:22] <cradek> but that's minor compared to how they really need to participate
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[18:57:55] <andypugh> Keling get a fair bit of positivity with no input themselves.
[18:59:04] <cradek> but that's hobby sized stuff, no?
[19:01:17] <andypugh> So is 750W?
[19:01:34] <cradek> oh is it?
[19:01:43] <cradek> I don't have any feel for that
[19:01:52] <andypugh> My 750W servos are hobby :-)
[19:03:10] <andypugh> There are probably 100W industrial stepper machines.
[19:03:46] <andypugh> I would doubt that there are many hobby machines running multi-kW servos, but there must be some.
[19:06:19] <cradek> I don't mean to make a hobby distinction. on keling's site I see mostly nema23 steppers. those won't run a knee mill, or really anything that'll cut much metal, will they?
[19:07:10] <cradek> on the other hand, my "hobby" mill is quite large
[19:07:33] <skunkworks> mine too :)
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[19:11:21] <andypugh> My machine is all NEMA23 steppers, it actually does surprisingly well. But there are reasons I am working (very slowly) on a servo machine made of real metal.
[19:17:34] <seb_kuzminsky> uh-oh, the "Technical Articles" just went missing from our webpage:
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/documentation
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[19:18:44] <andypugh> I had never even noticed the link before. What was there?
[19:19:03] <seb_kuzminsky> the best diagram i've ever seen for explaining the architecture of linuxcnc :-/
[19:19:07] <JT-Shop> not much
[19:19:25] <JT-Shop> I must have missed that then
[19:19:34] <andypugh> Yes but "the best" was still far from "accurate" as far as I recall?
[19:20:12] <seb_kuzminsky> i think it was correct
[19:20:24] <seb_kuzminsky> at least i never noticed any bugs in it
[19:20:32] <JT-Shop> I see it
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[19:26:18] <seb_kuzminsky> gah, feels good to move a bunch of stuff from my personal todo list to the shared bug tracker...
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[19:30:00] <JT-Shop> try the link now
[19:30:28] <seb_kuzminsky> now it works, thanks!!
[19:31:07] <seb_kuzminsky> that page (
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/documentation/42?task=view) would be great in our real docs, imo
[19:31:17] <seb_kuzminsky> it's very useful for developers
[19:31:25] <seb_kuzminsky> or at least it is for me
[19:31:45] <JT-Shop> two links fixed one more to finger out
[19:31:57] <JT-Shop> yes, it should be in the devloper manual
[19:32:05] <JT-Shop> I'll speak to the manual man
[19:32:16] <seb_kuzminsky> tell him hi for me :-)
[19:32:23] <JT-Shop> ok
[19:32:59] <andypugh> Shouldn't that diagram mention HAL?
[19:33:45] <seb_kuzminsky> fig 1 shouldnt, but maybe some of the later ones
[19:34:24] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, fig 2 has the ancestor of hal in it
[19:35:17] <andypugh> Really? I would have thought that HAL was one of the few parts of the architecture that are really obvious, and so ought to be obvious in the architecture diagram.
[19:35:38] <seb_kuzminsky> where in fig 1 do you think hal would fit?
[19:36:11] <seb_kuzminsky> i guess between "realtime hardware devices" and "emcmot"
[19:36:46] <seb_kuzminsky> well, it's not perfect, but it's better than what we have now (which is nothing, pretty much)
[19:36:52] <seb_kuzminsky> and if we move it into git, we can fix it
[19:37:27] <andypugh> As a bar full of crisscross lines between both EMCMOT and EMCIO to hint that you can "cross the streams" in HAL if you really want to.
[19:37:57] <andypugh> (Horizontal, full width)
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[19:40:25] <andypugh> Here's a thing. A chap running 2.5.1 posted a HAL config on the forum today full of ye olde newsigs and linkps. It also had a ton of emcmot…. pins. He said it worked. Are those pins aliased or something?
[19:41:28] <seb_kuzminsky> newsig and linkps are deprecated but not removed yet
[19:41:58] <seb_kuzminsky> i don't think we have any pins named "emcmot", they were maybe nets?
[19:42:49] <andypugh> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/forum/10-advanced-configuration/25797-atpid-configuration-question?lang=english#26054
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[19:43:49] <andypugh> Ah, yes, they are signals dressed up as pins.
[19:44:28] <seb_kuzminsky> they're just signals
[19:44:38] <seb_kuzminsky> aka nets
[19:44:49] <seb_kuzminsky> seems legit
[19:45:01] <andypugh> Yeah, now I pay proper attention
[19:45:23] <andypugh> Rather elaborate names for nets/signals
[19:45:52] <seb_kuzminsky> i like descriptive names
[19:46:14] <seb_kuzminsky> do you think using "." as a separator (instead of maybe "-" or "_") makes it look confusingly like pins?
[19:46:44] <andypugh> That and the index numbers rather than axis letters.
[19:47:03] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, the old joints/axes problem rears its head
[19:47:32] <andypugh> Aye, I thought that as I typed it.
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[20:09:21] <skunkworks> seb_kuzminsky, you need a tool changer... :)
[20:13:55] <andypugh> He needs a _more_reliable_ toolchanger
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[20:16:53] <JT-Shop> Sweet! I finally figured out what the link to the technical articles section was
[20:17:01] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/component/content/category/2
[20:18:08] <seb_kuzminsky> nice :-)
[20:18:29] <JT-Shop> still can't find the faq page yet
[20:18:34] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks: my current tool changer is getting old, time to scrap it
[20:18:46] <skunkworks> heh
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