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[07:07:53] <alex_joni> mhaberler: around?
[07:08:03] <mhaberler> yes
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[07:21:46] <alex_joni> ok
[07:21:51] <alex_joni> was out for a little while
[07:21:58] <alex_joni> about the web/forum/wiki thingie
[07:22:24] <alex_joni> the only access the "board" has that other people don't have is ssh access on the server
[07:22:45] <alex_joni> but I don't think that is needed for the most operations you asked about
[07:22:52] <alex_joni> certainly not for fixing the wiki
[07:23:08] <mhaberler> that is not what I referred to
[07:25:05] <alex_joni> "You are missing the gatekeeper role the Board plays with respect to the web services, among other themes.
[07:25:13] <mhaberler> exactly
[07:25:26] <alex_joni> I didn't understand that
[07:26:07] <mhaberler> My point is that you assume the role of a gatekeeper there, and then you dont follow up with the consequences - that is, keep the thing up to date
[07:26:17] <alex_joni> assume.. why?
[07:26:33] <alex_joni> we did things because nobody else would
[07:26:42] <alex_joni> it's not the boards role to install web software
[07:26:46] <alex_joni> or to keep track of it
[07:27:00] <alex_joni> if someone else (reliable) commits to taking care of that, I couldn't be more happy
[07:27:19] <mhaberler> that is my issue with your definition with a board's role - you dont take on a caretaking role
[07:27:30] <alex_joni> I didn't define it like that
[07:27:55] <alex_joni> the main idea behind the board was to take care of things which a dev or a bunch of dev wouldn't decide on
[07:28:00] <alex_joni> like the renaming thing
[07:28:00] <mhaberler> you just said it
[07:28:32] <alex_joni> and to keep an interface with businesses
[07:29:06] <alex_joni> as for joomla
[07:29:14] <alex_joni> we currently have 7 super administrators
[07:29:30] <alex_joni> and 5 more administrators
[07:29:39] <alex_joni> all of those can take care of any joomla related things
[07:30:03] <mhaberler> look, it is all fine and dandy if *you* do not want to install "web software". If you control acccess, then you are in the responsibility of having the thing not fall apart, so would you please *organize* the *not falling apart* part of the job
[07:30:34] <mhaberler> dont you see where your style falls on its face?
[07:30:37] <alex_joni> that's the point I don't understand
[07:30:43] <alex_joni> what access do *I* control?
[07:31:13] <alex_joni> or better said, what do you want to do, and you currently can't do
[07:31:22] <alex_joni> because theoretical debates make no sense to me
[07:32:42] <mhaberler> I just heard on the ML: "we will always have a forum, and that's the end of it because we discussed this before" - then you are in the responsibility of organizing it, if you have "super admins" and "more admins" - you cannot just sit there and watch it falling apart, which is _not_ theoretical
[07:33:44] <mhaberler> read the operative word: *organizing*
[07:36:44] <alex_joni> so far my experience is that it doesn't work to tell people what to do
[07:36:59] <alex_joni> they all do it for fun, not because they have to
[07:37:27] <alex_joni> so unless someone comes along who _wants_ to do these things, they probably will get done when I get around to it
[07:37:39] <alex_joni> but as I said, I would happily put someone else in charge
[07:40:02] <alex_joni> personally I would rather see joomla go, it proved not to be a reliable software at all
[07:40:19] <alex_joni> but that means investing at least 2-3 weeks of work into an alternative
[07:40:25] <alex_joni> and I don't have that time currently
[07:40:29] <mhaberler> 'organizing' is not the same as 'telling to do', and that is where your comparison fails - you seem to believe somehow things fall into place by themselves - well it is obvious they dont. So 'organizing' means: a) this is an issue which needs resolving b) who can do it c) how do we find/encourage a person to do it d) check that it has been done.
[07:41:02] <alex_joni> I was talking about c)
[07:41:06] <alex_joni> a) is clear
[07:41:11] <mhaberler> it is the 1x1 of basic management, sorry I cannot let you out of this, if you like it or not
[07:41:21] <alex_joni> it has been clear to me for at least the last 2 years
[07:41:36] <alex_joni> b). who can do it - that's an issue
[07:42:03] <mhaberler> I understand that it might not be as fun as coding, but it has to happen because this project has grown to big to be somehow coordinated by gatekeeper osmosis
[07:42:37] <alex_joni> right.. so who do you think will volunteer?
[07:43:09] <alex_joni> and it needs to be someone trustable.. call me paranoid, but I wouldn't pass it on to someone I met a couple days ago
[07:44:59] <mhaberler> look, before going onto details with this - you as an entity need to take on a role which is commensurate with the size, social structure and open issues with this - this has changed over time, and it is time to adapt
[07:45:13] <mhaberler> everything else follows
[07:45:46] <alex_joni> you'd say the project has grown?
[07:46:15] <alex_joni> surely the userbase has grown, but the active part of it hasn't imo
[07:46:17] <mhaberler> it has clearly grown to an extent that your assumption of implicit coordination fails
[07:46:36] <alex_joni> sure there are some new faces, but also old faces that fade out
[07:46:45] <alex_joni> (and I'm including myself there, unfortunately)
[07:46:45] <mhaberler> fine, that's a constant
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[07:48:58] <mhaberler> this suggests that your "low profile attitude" is not commensurate any more - you need to take an organizing and caretaking role (I specifically did not say "software installing role") - that implies some basic management - keeping lists of open issues, checking the are resolved, trying to moderate the longer term goal settings (zero to be heard from you here)
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[07:49:49] <alex_joni> take a look at the wiki
[07:50:15] <alex_joni> there are loads of pages which have been started
[07:50:20] <alex_joni> with points to consider
[07:50:27] <alex_joni> features that should be implemented
[07:50:36] <alex_joni> for future version of emc2/linuxcnc
[07:50:45] <alex_joni> and _ALL_ of them died the same
[07:50:54] <mhaberler> fine, all this says is: a wiki is not an organisational vehicle. I fully agree, and I have found out before.
[07:50:55] <alex_joni> nothing happens, unless someone wants to do it
[07:51:03] <alex_joni> no, I was making a point
[07:51:15] <alex_joni> we had at some point (long time ago) a feature list
[07:51:21] <alex_joni> with things that are needed
[07:51:26] <alex_joni> and priorities and whatnot
[07:51:57] <alex_joni> but in the end, it didn't matter
[07:52:03] <mhaberler> dont you see that a *wiki page* is not a replacement for you guys to *take on a role*?
[07:52:12] <alex_joni> you're not understanding me
[07:52:15] <alex_joni> we took a role
[07:52:17] <alex_joni> and made a plan
[07:52:29] <alex_joni> and said we should focus on that and that
[07:52:33] <alex_joni> and no-one cared
[07:52:59] <mhaberler> could it be you missed out on following thorugh it actually happens
[07:53:38] <alex_joni> following through with whom?
[07:54:24] <alex_joni> we have different views on our "community"
[07:54:27] <mhaberler> the rest of the crowd? breaking goals down to work units, trying to get somebody to actually do it, check it has been done? these things just do not happen by themselves
[07:54:30] <alex_joni> both user and developer base
[07:54:55] <alex_joni> right, and I say it's all in vain
[07:55:06] <alex_joni> you can organize work units all you want
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[07:55:14] <mhaberler> we have *very* different views what caretaking and stewardship of a BOD means, and what it implies for the involved persons
[07:55:35] <mhaberler> that in my experience is just not the case
[07:55:52] <alex_joni> then why don't you try it on one of your projects?
[07:56:02] <alex_joni> I mean one of your emc2 projects
[07:56:15] <mhaberler> I am currently organizing a multi-person effort to get rt-preempt, xenomai and config support done, and it *will* happen
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[07:56:51] <alex_joni> those are things people want to work on, for personal reasons
[07:57:09] <alex_joni> it worked before (RTLinux and RTAI days, etc)
[07:57:18] <mhaberler> I have laid out with the involved folks how its going to pan out, they agree, work proceeds, issue closed
[07:57:26] <alex_joni> but I doubt you'll get the same enthusiasm when trying to rewrite the interp
[07:57:34] <mhaberler> I am sorry: this is just plain wrong
[07:58:00] <alex_joni> it doesn't mean I like how things work
[07:58:24] <alex_joni> it's just how I learned they do (in the last 8 years since I've been involved with linuxcnc)
[07:58:39] <mhaberler> look what I am heading for with fixing the whole infrastructure mess - getting NML replaced by a reasonable mechanism, messaging gets an API, all these basics: do you think this is fun? no, I do it because I think it is necessary
[07:58:50] <alex_joni> right
[07:58:55] <mhaberler> otherwise there will be just more of the layering wart-over-wart
[07:59:09] <mhaberler> so?
[07:59:26] <mhaberler> My guess is: you have not tried.
[07:59:34] <alex_joni> you'd be surprised
[07:59:48] <alex_joni> but indeed I gave up trying
[07:59:49] <mhaberler> let me reword: try to organize.
[07:59:59] <alex_joni> I was talking about organizing
[08:00:35] <mhaberler> From private communications, I have a *lot* of indication of willingness, and I do count it will be there - in fact, with the preempt/xenomai effort I *see* it is there
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[08:01:07] <alex_joni> so.. then lets get back to forums
[08:01:20] <mhaberler> no, lets get back to your role
[08:01:25] <mhaberler> sorry, bbl
[08:02:52] <alex_joni> say when
[08:04:46] <mhaberler> now. just said this to bug you ;)
[08:04:54] <mhaberler> fine, forums. Now.
[08:05:15] <mhaberler> hows that supposed to happen without a bit of a plan? you have:
[08:05:36] <mhaberler> install software somewhere else.
[08:05:55] <mhaberler> test export/import content, users, search - whatever
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[08:06:54] <mhaberler> maybe you keep it somewhere else, if it's to be had as a service, or you keep it on www.linuxcnc.org - I dont know, maybe a bit of research will reveal there's an off-the-shelf alternative.
[08:08:23] <mhaberler> so why dont you outline these steps, ask for help by somebody, and then see through it happens? I have never heard of a BOD member doing that (I have missed something though).
[08:08:57] <alex_joni> well, I did ask before, trust me
[08:09:53] <mhaberler> you know, it's this thing with messages; it's all about what the receiver understands, not what the sender intends
[08:10:00] <alex_joni> right
[08:10:09] <alex_joni> but.. we're limited to that
[08:10:31] <alex_joni> hmm.. seems I can't currently find a copy of the old linuxcnc website
[08:10:35] <mhaberler> but this is basic stuff of a division-of-labor organisation, which is 99.99% of our daily life
[08:10:36] <alex_joni> the one before joomla
[08:12:13] <alex_joni> hmm.. found one, but the 'role' of the BoD is not described there either
[08:12:18] <mhaberler> I have my doubts - given for instance what jthornton describes he puts up with continuously, there must be somebody around willing to fix it at 5% of the time effort
[08:12:37] <mhaberler> there is a 'charter' which I am pressed to take as an adequate definition
[08:13:46] <mhaberler> I really think this discussion, and definition of the BOD role needs to happen; and I am very sure the result of this discussion will differ substantially from the current (self) perception
[08:14:35] <mhaberler> which if fine - it is just a change over time
[08:14:44] <mhaberler> no bad feelings
[08:16:30] <alex_joni> right
[08:16:38] <alex_joni> well, the problem is that things move on
[08:16:41] <alex_joni> and people move on
[08:17:00] <mhaberler> it's not a problem.. its a good thing;)
[08:17:03] <alex_joni> right
[08:17:13] <alex_joni> the problem is cruft that gets left behind
[08:18:19] <alex_joni> bah.. and right now kunena.org dies for me
[08:28:56] <mhaberler> I think you were looking for this:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?BoardOfDirectors
[08:30:09] <alex_joni> nope, those are only the board business
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[09:01:18] <alex_joni> jthornton: ping me when around
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[10:47:31] <jthornton> alex_joni, ping
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[11:07:39] <alex_joni> jthornton: hi
[11:07:49] <alex_joni> maybe you noticed, I upgraded kunena
[11:07:54] <alex_joni> let me know if there are issues
[11:08:04] <alex_joni> I also wanted to talk to you about spammers registering
[11:08:04] <jthornton> hi alex, yes I just woke up and was reading it
[11:08:49] <jthornton> ok
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[11:32:36] <alex_joni> jthornton: mind if we do that in a pm? might bore other non-interested parties
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[12:18:32] <mozmck> alex_joni: I'm not seeing pictures on this thread:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/41-guis/17806-gscreen-a-gtk--glade--python-based-screen?start=108
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[12:33:05] <alex_joni> mozmck: jas
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[12:53:08] <alex_joni> mozmck: odd, the link is correct
[12:53:51] <skunkworks> what happended to the forum! ;)
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[12:59:35] <alex_joni> mozmck: I have no idea why it doesn't work
[12:59:46] <alex_joni> if I edit the message and hit preview, the image turns up
[12:59:58] <mozmck> interesting.
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[13:06:53] <alex_joni> ah-ha, I see the blind man said
[13:06:58] <alex_joni> mozmck: check now
[13:07:09] <skunkworks_> what was it (just showed up)
[13:07:20] <alex_joni> missing _
[13:07:39] <alex_joni> inside bbcode.php, not in the post ;)
[13:07:44] <skunkworks_> wow
[13:07:47] <skunkworks_> nice catch
[13:07:48] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: so just another bugfix ;)
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[13:09:44] <skunkworks_> storming here
[13:11:21] <mozmck> alex_joni: that's better! does that have to be fixed for each broken image?
[13:11:49] <mozmck> Oh, I should read better. "inside bbcode.php"
[13:13:07] <skunkworks_> mozmck,
http://electronicsam.com/gallery/picture.php?/575/category/11
[13:13:11] <skunkworks_> (OT)
[13:13:52] <mozmck> skunkworks_: cute baby! ours is 9mo now.
[13:14:03] <skunkworks_> well - time is flying...
[13:14:16] <mozmck> yep
[13:15:31] <mozmck> she took 6 steps on her own yesterday
[13:15:52] <skunkworks_> wow - yay!
[13:15:57] <skunkworks_> Look out :)
[13:16:02] <mozmck> :)
[13:16:06] <cradek> GENERAL: Announcement and general issues around LinuxCNC and
[13:16:09] <cradek> haha
[13:16:16] <cradek> alex_joni: thanks for your work on this
[13:19:09] <alex_joni> that's recursive ;)
[13:21:00] <jthornton> a couple of times this morning I've gotten a 500 Internal Server Error on linuxcnc.org
[13:21:21] <alex_joni> that sounds like overload
[13:21:58] <skunkworks_> doing it now...
[13:22:30] <alex_joni> hmm.. might have broken the forum
[13:22:34] <alex_joni> the webpage still works
[13:23:44] <skunkworks_> heh - probably doesn't help anything that dreamhost was having problems the last few days...
[13:23:49] <alex_joni> nope
[13:29:40] <skunkworks_> on the left pane - there is
[13:29:41] <skunkworks_> 1 Unban request(s)
[13:29:41] <skunkworks_> 12 User report(s)
[13:29:41] <skunkworks_> 3 Image(s)
[13:29:41] <skunkworks_> 551 User(s)
[13:30:24] <skunkworks_> (I had never noticed them before.. Did they work? (they don't seem to now) or do I have to be logged into administration?
[13:30:38] <jthornton> that's been there for a while but doesn't seem to do anything when you click on them
[13:30:44] <skunkworks_> ok
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[13:54:40] <alex_joni> bbl
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[14:24:03] <JT-Shop> hmm reply attachments in the forum just show "Add File" the "Add Image" is gone.
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[19:58:55] <andypugh> If I wanted to write a utility to set the nvram parameters on a Mesa card, how should I do it?
[19:59:18] <andypugh> To communicate with the card I pretty much have to have the hostmot2 driver loaded and ready.
[19:59:34] <andypugh> (loadrt hostmot2, loadrt hm2_pci)
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[20:00:02] <andypugh> The simplest thing would be to stay in halcmd and have a userspace module there for the job.
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[20:00:31] <seb_kuzminsky> by nvram you mean the eeprom that configures the pci chipset?
[20:00:59] <andypugh> No, this is the nvram on the sserial remotes, like the 8i20 max current.
[20:01:08] <seb_kuzminsky> oh
[20:01:55] <seb_kuzminsky> to talk to the smart serial peripherals you need to go through the hm2 firmware on the fpga, so i think you're right that you should do it after loading hostmot2 and hm2_pci
[20:01:59] <andypugh> Micges has already written a util for flashing the FPGA cards like the 5i25 and 6i25 which don't take firmware at atartup)
[20:03:04] <andypugh> I am thinking of a simple C program, loadusr sserial_flash hm2_5i25.0.8i20.0.1.nvmaxcurrent=30
[20:03:30] <seb_kuzminsky> what's the wire protocol for flashing the sserial daughter cards?
[20:03:38] <andypugh> But I am also wondering if I should export a pythin binding to allow it to be done from a GUI?
[20:04:14] <andypugh> It's going to be rare enough that I am preferring the halcmd way, I think. I can get that done tonight.
[20:04:37] <andypugh> Whereas learning Python might take till the weekend. Well, till _a_ weekend.
[20:05:34] <andypugh> The protocol involves setting registers on the FPGA to open up NVRAM access, then sending data, then reverting to normal.
[20:06:22] <seb_kuzminsky> i've sometimes wished HAL had a 'stream' data type for pins
[20:06:28] <seb_kuzminsky> seems like that would be useful here
[20:07:08] <seb_kuzminsky> but in the absence of that, maybe just expose those registers (like the 'raw' interface of hostmot2) and write, like you say, a little userspace utility to clock the bytes into the flash
[20:07:29] <seb_kuzminsky> use separate 'data' and 'clock' hal pins
[20:08:06] <andypugh> Initially I just want to set single variables. But the next stage is to re-flash the whole firmware on my 8i20, as it is serial number 3 and has unfortunate properties (like if you sart it up without DC bus power and enable it faults out and won't restart)
[20:09:00] <andypugh> I think that I have to allow access by name, not hex address.
[20:09:01] <seb_kuzminsky> do you currently query the daughter-card firmware version in the driver, so you can warn the user if theirs is too old?
[20:10:05] <andypugh> No, partly because the sserial driver gets _all_ its config data from the card now. Pete can launch a new card and it just works, HAL pins and all with no changes to LinuxCNC
[20:10:19] <seb_kuzminsky> neat
[20:10:54] <andypugh> Yeah, it is pretty cool for everyone but Chris Morley as it makes the job of PNCConf impossible
[20:11:02] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[20:11:44] <andypugh> We probably need to give him a python-bound function to grab the pin names, really.
[20:12:35] <seb_kuzminsky> if you need to have a full hal environment up and running to read the sserial card, then you can just use halcmd to get the pin names, right?
[20:13:05] <andypugh> Thoough he could presumably just shell out to halcmd. subprocess.call([halcmd show pins])
[20:13:13] <seb_kuzminsky> yep
[20:14:06] <andypugh> You don't need any realtime threads. In fact if the realtime threads are running and TRAM is configured then it could all go disaterously wrong.
[20:14:29] <andypugh> (note to self, make sure the new code quits if threads are running)
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