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[08:56:29] <alex_joni> cradek: is it me, or did KGB start to report git instead of the username who made the commit?
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[09:27:38] <mhaberler> for some commits that might be better
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[12:24:21] <cradek> alex_joni: mhaberler has his email set as git@something
[12:24:41] <mhaberler> see
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[12:37:59] <mhaberler> alex_joni: pleaaaaase install a link checker on www.linuxcnc.org - this is so embarrassing, and early nineties - and it looks really unprofessional
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[13:31:48] <alex_joni> mhaberler: a what?
[13:32:24] <mhaberler> a link checker is a program which goes over a website and reports dead links
[13:33:10] <mhaberler> so the program will do what currently site visitors do, one dead link at a time
[13:33:15] <alex_joni> that assumes there's someone who can do something about them...
[13:33:40] <mhaberler> yes
[13:35:11] <mhaberler> example:
http://linkchecker.sourceforge.net/
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[14:08:25] <alex_joni> I don't see why that needs to be installed on linuxcnc.org
[14:08:35] <alex_joni> it runs on any platform afaik
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[17:43:20] <cradek> it's entirely possible that buildbot-poking and kgb will both now work right.
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[17:45:17] <mhaberler> does that mean old pending jobs were now triggered?
[17:46:15] <cradek> no
[17:49:01] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03git 05jog-while-paused-preview2 9a35fb1 06emc2 10docs/src/remap/structure.txt * null: whitespace change to trigger buildbot
[17:49:29] <mhaberler> commit feedback is clean now - thanks!
[17:49:48] <cradek> welcome
[17:50:05] <cradek> but I dislike that KGB fails to report your name
[17:51:03] <mhaberler> ok, that triggered the buildbot
[17:51:11] <cradek> yay
[17:52:26] <mhaberler> there was renewed interest in the jog-while-paused HAL component (secondary motion queue, if you remember)
[17:53:33] <mhaberler> I didnt want to provide that as a patch, but it would need review because it substantially touches motion - how do you feel about that? that was the 'stopgap measure'
[17:54:03] <mhaberler> it would be for master though
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[17:54:53] <cradek> if it's the one I reviewed before, I disliked it because it did not use the normal continuous/incremental/wheel jogging system
[17:55:37] <cradek> instead it made a new panel with a new kind of jogging that works in just one particular situation
[17:55:39] <mhaberler> that, I think, can be done
[17:56:22] <mhaberler> well the panel was just there a demo, that doesnt imply it remains as a permanent UI
[17:56:25] <cradek> I agree it's possible to use existing jogging infrastructure while paused, and upon unpause just issue a move back to the old spot
[17:56:45] <mhaberler> right, this would be it
[17:56:47] <cradek> but that doesn't allow for offset changes
[17:56:53] <mhaberler> no
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[17:57:39] <mhaberler> not in the current form, but that its just an extra pose to be communicated
[17:57:47] <cradek> so we're back where we started
[17:57:49] <skunkworks> which is 90% of what mach users complain about..
[17:58:00] <skunkworks> (setting tool length)
[17:58:19] <cradek> so you're considering adding a new offset at a different level?
[17:58:23] <skunkworks> (but from all my reading - it doesn't work well anyway - unpredictable)
[17:58:28] <cradek> I am struggling to understand what your question to me is...
[17:59:39] <mhaberler> the question I am concerned about at this point is one of review of the motion changes; if we can agree on that I will see how to integrate it into jogging, and maybe offset.
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[18:00:34] <cradek> wasn't the basic motion change simple? generate a move and temporarily point to that instead of the normal realtime queue?
[18:00:36] <mhaberler> otherwise there is no point in doing that
[18:00:47] <mhaberler> right -
[18:01:15] <cradek> I see no problem with that kind of scheme to move the machine before unpausing
[18:02:15] <mhaberler> fair enough, in that case I'll see what can be done about integration into jogging and maybe offset. I need to re-read our old discussion on this.
[18:02:17] <cradek> heck rigid tapping does a very similar thing - it generates the proper retract move at the time of the stop/reversal
[18:02:37] <mhaberler> exactly, this is where I cloned code from
[18:03:23] <mhaberler> the substantial change is not the moves though; it is the introduction of a secondary motion queue, and switching back and forth
[18:03:44] <mhaberler> that was surprisingly easy and stable although it caused quite a few changes
[18:04:51] <cradek> the real work will be flogging task and the modal motion interface into handling these moves that were previously not allowed
[18:05:11] <cradek> you'll have to switch motion out of coordinated mode and back, without disturbing its "coordinated state"
[18:05:39] <cradek> I bet this can also unsync forward/reverse kins
[18:05:56] <mhaberler> currently it remains in coord
[18:06:06] <cradek> ... and utterly break inverse-only kins because you must re-home after any jog
[18:07:21] <mhaberler> shouldnt it be possible to translate a jog in teleop mode into an equivalent move in coord?
[18:07:41] <mhaberler> not sure how that plays with kins
[18:07:59] <cradek> did ja3 get merged yet? I don't remember which kind of teleop we currently have in master
[18:08:12] <mhaberler> no, not afaict
[18:08:24] <cradek> gurgle gurgle
[18:09:33] <mhaberler> I'm not sure about your question, but I understood it as a single joint move
[18:10:08] <cradek> are you talking about jog-while-paused in terms of joint jogging or world/teleop jogging?
[18:10:32] <mhaberler> beats me, I need to look..
[18:10:50] <mhaberler> jwp was simply in coord mode
[18:11:03] <cradek> yeah
[18:11:57] <mhaberler> cant be one translated into the other? this modal states are a real pita
[18:12:01] <cradek> I think ja3 (if it's working...) gives you a sane jog in world mode (with continuous/incremental/wheel)
[18:12:36] <mhaberler> ah, thats why you refer to it
[18:12:41] <cradek> well in at least some cases, no; for instance you certainly can't move a joint while in coordinated mode if you don't have forward kins
[18:13:08] <cradek> and forward kins are nice to have but not currently required
[18:13:39] <mhaberler> is fwd kins impossible for some machines, or is it just missing - and what if one made that a requirement?
[18:14:09] <cradek> I don't know the answer to that - I do think they can be harder than inverse to write
[18:14:23] <cradek> not sure how hard makes impossible
[18:14:28] <cradek> surely it's never impossible??
[18:15:43] <mhaberler> it could be that fwd/reverse is not injective, i.e. more that one soltution for fwd for a given reverse
[18:15:44] <cradek> if we had sane world jogging, inverse only kins would give you a machine that worked perfectly fine
[18:16:19] <cradek> you'd home and go to world mode and never leave it
[18:16:33] <mhaberler> that was what always puzzled me
[18:16:56] <mhaberler> it would be a valuable question to have an answer to
[18:17:12] <cradek> what question?
[18:17:54] <mhaberler> whether it is possible for any given reverse kin, to arrive at a single-solution fwd kin (and without a second PhD thesis)
[18:18:02] <cradek> haha
[18:18:38] <mhaberler> didnt this Igor Chudov publish about kins? I think I remeber something
[18:18:41] <andypugh> I think it is possible to have kins which are indeterminate in both directions.
[18:19:27] <andypugh> For example for any three joint lengths a tripod can be above or below the plane.
[18:19:27] <KimK> cradek: I have a much easier Q for you. What's your Mori Jr's max spindle RPM? And does yours still have the original 1.5 to 1 (or thereabouts) pulley ratio? (and Hi also, mhaberler , andypugh )
[18:19:54] <mhaberler> hi KimK!
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[18:20:19] <mhaberler> but for sure it would cover many machines with simple kins, and 80/20 would make many happy
[18:20:25] <andypugh> And a serial robot can frequently reach the same end effector position with a whole continuum of jpint positions.
[18:20:45] <cradek> KimK: yes, still has the weird pulleys. I think the motor goes 8k which makes the spindle about 6k?? or maybe it's the other way around.
[18:20:54] <mhaberler> that's what I meant by single solution (hey, I'm just an MBA)
[18:20:55] <cradek> the spindle motor has a max rpm on its nameplate
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[18:22:06] <cradek> KimK: LOOK WHAT I HAVE HERE:
http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/spindle-motor.jpg
[18:22:12] <cradek> I can't believe I found that
[18:23:19] <cradek> I recall that I set my VFD in V/Hz mode using the CONT ratings
[18:23:23] <andypugh> I can't remember which way is forwards and which is reverse, but typically all you care about is that your controlled point is where you wanted, not which solution is used to get there.
[18:24:00] <andypugh> Though you can get a SCARA robot in a bit of a tangle with itself I think.
[18:24:01] <cradek> I don't agree. you also care that this solution is the one near the previous one
[18:24:21] <cradek> so you don't have your elbow-up and elbow-down (or whatever) solutions intermingling
[18:24:51] <andypugh> Well, yes, that was rather assumed but I take your point.
[18:25:08] <cradek> I think some iterative kins use the last-known position as a "guess" for the new target
[18:25:51] <andypugh> If someone has a kins that breaks jogging then it is their job to fix the kins, not the other way round.
[18:25:52] <cradek> I am no expert. I've only written a handful of trig-based kins sets. nothing crazy.
[18:27:38] <KimK> cradek: Ha, yes, *your* spindle motor has a max rpm on its nameplate (and thanks for the photo, BTW), unfortunately ours is in much dirtier condition. The drive manual only talks about 0 to 6000 though, I have not found 8000 in the drive manuals, but your advice about 8000 motor and 6000 (5000?) spindle sounds about right, thanks.
[18:28:12] <cradek> well you can clearly see my motor is rated 8k continuous
[18:28:34] <andypugh> So that's what, 12k hobby use :-)
[18:28:36] <cradek> I recall our machines are consecutive serial numbers or damn close
[18:28:48] <mhaberler> I would think this is a question which has come up before in this industry, and I assume there's a 'this is how you do it' or 'forget it' type answer to it
[18:29:07] <cradek> KimK: maybe we should move it to #emc
[18:29:10] <cradek> err #linuxcnc
[18:29:11] <cradek> haha
[18:29:19] <mhaberler> yes
[18:29:39] <mhaberler> no spindle pissing contests here please ;)
[18:29:58] <cradek> mhaberler: he's not pissing on it, he's retrofitting a machine just like mine
[18:30:09] <cradek> ... except dirtier I guess
[18:30:53] <andypugh> Looks like an idiom that didn't translate there.
[18:31:09] <mhaberler> yes, anyway - noise, forget it
[18:31:25] <andypugh> (which is odd, I thought it was an American idiom, related to how high up a wall one can reach, I believe)
[18:32:02] <KimK> Ha, no, that's OK, that's enough spindle info for now, thanks. Back to the much more important kins discussion. Carry on, gents.
[18:32:30] <cradek> I was being obtuse about the idiom because there was no ongoing contest at all, just me trying to help by giving him information about a probably-identical machine.
[18:32:56] <mhaberler> I wonder if the problem we discuss here can be formulated unambiguously, and posed to 'someone in the know' (assuming a) we find one and b) she answers, but thats a separate issue)
[18:33:17] <mhaberler> I just cannot believe we are the first to ask that
[18:33:31] <andypugh> Who wrote Genserkins?
[18:33:43] <mhaberler> some Phd
[18:34:04] <skunkworks> fred proctor? and alexjoni helped put it into linuxcnc.. (I think)
[18:34:11] <skunkworks> someone from nist
[18:35:47] <skunkworks> ah ha!
http://juve.ro/blog/puma
[18:35:53] <skunkworks> sometimes I remember things..
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[18:40:36] <mhaberler> fine, so what again was the question we were trying to solve..
[18:42:41] <andypugh> "when can mah deliver a fully working jog while paused without any help from me" is my question :-)
[18:43:45] <skunkworks> and it has to work for all kin combinations..
[18:45:05] <skunkworks> oh - oh - and he needs to merge AJ3 also and fix accordingly.
[18:45:31] <skunkworks> lets see... what else...
[18:46:03] <andypugh> cake, we want cake too!
[18:46:04] <cradek> my concern is that it might be very troublesome in the long term to make major changes to jogging without first merging (and possibly fixing up) ja3
[18:46:25] <andypugh> I think that we do need ja3 mainstreamed now.
[18:46:52] <andypugh> I suppose the question is whether we expect a 2.6
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[18:47:30] <mhaberler> what would be the alternative?
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[18:47:56] <andypugh> Straight to 3 with all the big changes discussed.
[18:48:24] <andypugh> Or does 3 go far further than JA3's ambitions?
[18:48:26] <cradek> master is already so divergent that we might rightly consider it 3.x
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[18:48:41] <cradek> but I don't really care about the 2.6/3.0 distinction. does anyone?
[18:48:53] <mhaberler> that is not what I call it, then I rename 3 to NG
[18:49:16] <cradek> ?
[18:49:49] <andypugh> Well, there is an expectation that 2.6/master will broadly work, whereas I suspect that a v3 might have to spend a lot of time committed but broken.
[18:49:51] <mhaberler> what I plan is to fix some fundamental arhcitectural and middle ware issues, and thats not going to happen as incremental changes
[18:50:45] <mhaberler> that could easily be six months to status ante reached again
[18:51:06] <mhaberler> (assuming this is a desirable goal, but thats a different question)
[18:51:39] <andypugh> But I think that the new shiny broken branch should be on the LinuxCNC git server, not Michaels.
[18:52:02] <andypugh> (I guess ja3 exists there in much the same sort of state)
[18:52:17] <andypugh> Sort of an "upstream from master"
[18:52:41] <cradek> I think there are more than a few branches that represent different shiny things
[18:52:45] <cradek> this is not a bad thing
[18:53:28] <mhaberler> the reason why I have people on my box is simply on of access policy and stability - this is a skunkworks type thing with lots of shaky stuff
[18:54:15] <mhaberler> it does not represent, or suggest a fork of any shape or form, so I dont think that helps anything
[18:54:19] <skunkworks> what? ;)
[18:55:26] <mhaberler> but the ja3 work I think is pretty independent of any L3 goals and middleware gizmos
[18:56:05] <cradek> sure but it has everything to do with JWP
[18:56:16] <cradek> I thought that's what we were talking about
[18:57:39] <mhaberler> I came about this because of a user request, and that would naturally go into anything between 2.5 a 2.6, assuming 2.6 is a poiished master with no fundamental changes
[18:59:44] <KimK> Just an idle Q from a kibitzer, but would it be possible, instead of merging ja3 into master and ending ja3, to "copy"(?) master into ja3 and keep ja3 independent (for now), but occasionally updated from master? With the idea that ja3 might be often broken during the transition, but master should be generally OK?
[19:00:12] <skunkworks> I think that is what happens now every so often
[19:00:16] <cradek> KimK: that is really the current status. but it means that ja3 languishes and is rather untested and unpolished
[19:00:40] <cradek> KimK: and it doesn't help mhaberler put in his new feature (in either possible place, really)
[19:01:19] <KimK> Ah, OK. So more users of the "experimental" ja3 are needed?
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[19:02:03] <cradek> well it's something the wise implementor of a new jogging-related feature ought to consider carefully
[19:02:11] <mhaberler> I'm not so much concerned about this, but eventually substantial parts of existing code need to be carried over and it would help if that issue is addressed by then
[19:04:02] <mhaberler> there are several ways to deal with it; obviously one is to grill micges ;) another one would be to bring it in as-is with a clear description of deficits and to-do's
[19:05:02] <mhaberler> I would not do the second option without a clear roadmap what needs to be done, because it would be too hard for somebody else to pick up the remaining work
[19:06:13] <mhaberler> maybe we should ask micges to come forward with a laundry list (and keep him as an escalation instance only and try to find somebody else to finish it)
[19:07:25] <mhaberler> defining, assigning and integrating units of work is a bit far out on the communal learning curve though
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[19:08:40] <mhaberler> In fact I think (and found) encouraging newcomers can help quite a bit, provided they are grandfathered
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[20:00:46] <mhaberler> cu - I'm fading
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[21:19:38] <alex_joni> mhaberler: according to micges he doesn't know of drawbacks which are there currently, and he runs it on some production machines
[21:19:52] <alex_joni> (I do know he's gone already, but maybe he'll read back)
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