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[13:44:22] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03jthornton 05v2.5_branch 21a67c8 06emc2 10docs/src/config/ini_config.txt * Docs: fix joint numbering description
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[17:07:40] <JT-Shop> hmm motion.digital-out is not affected by the estop state :(
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[18:52:49] <memleak> Hello!\
[18:54:50] <memleak> I'm thinking about getting EMC to run with the RTAI 2.6.38.8 kernel, I was going to update the symbols in EMC against the newer RTAI IPIPE code, but before I do anything, I'd like to know just how productive that will be.
[18:56:33] <memleak> RTAI for x86 has finally hit kernel releases of 3.X but it doesn't look complete yet. Should that really be the only goal though if anybody is going to bumping EMC to later RTAI kernel patches?
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[18:58:54] <cradek> I don't see anything for kernel 3.X on the rtai mailing list yet - do you have a pointer?
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[19:01:39] <memleak> Yes but I need to look into it more. Doing it right now. RTAI kernel patches always originate from the adeos ipipe patches, but the RTAI developers (mante i believe is the only person) patches those patches for more realtime purposes.
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[19:02:46] <memleak> adeos patches have 3.2.21, but that's not in the RTAI tree. If you want to do what I'm doing right now and see what's exactly missing, the patch is here:
http://download.gna.org/adeos/patches/v3.x/x86/ipipe-core-3.2.21-x86-1.patch
[19:03:22] <cradek> aha, last I see is this:
https://mail.rtai.org/pipermail/rtai/2012-September/025141.html
[19:04:33] <memleak> I'll run a diff on the 2.6.38.8 2.11-02 patch on the adeos download site and compare it to the 2.6.38.8 2.11-02 patch in the RTAI cvs tree.
[19:05:37] <memleak> Perhaps I could even finish that 3.2.11 adeos patch myself ;) I'll have to re-write parts of EMC though otherwise I'll have a bunch of undefined references in the kernel modules.
[19:05:38] <cradek> that sounds smart and interesting
[19:06:25] <cradek> I think we usually don't have to mess with the rtapi layer when we update rtai, but I suppose it's not unheard of. I'm not an expert in that area.
[19:07:19] <cradek> (I attempted to port forward the 2.6 kernel patch but my result didn't even boot.)
[19:08:16] <memleak> The RTAI kernel patches for 2.6.38 have too many changes to have EMC to run the simulator. Last I tested 3.6.38 I had undefined symbols and dmesg had a bunch of errors waiting for me upon launching the servo sim example in EMC.
[19:09:02] <memleak> But I also didn't touch any of the source in EMC.. I could get the 2.6.38.8 RTAI kernel working in EMC if you think it actually serves a purpose.. Can't promise anything but I can try.
[19:10:05] <cradek> we've heard of these kinds of problems many times from people using different rtai builds - it's typically an rtai build setting (or kernel build setting!) that is the problem
[19:10:32] <cradek> so I guess don't be too ready to start hacking around in rtapi, without maybe at least sharing your errors here
[19:10:38] <memleak> I actually need to get 2.6.38.8 kernels working in EMC anyway for my own project so either way I'll be trying to get it done. (forgot about the fact I actually need it)
[19:11:27] <cradek> thanks for looking into it, but again, share your errors, lots of relevant expertise here
[19:11:44] <memleak> Thanks, will do!
[19:13:23] <mozmck> I'm pretty sure joe9 got 2.6.38.8 working.
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[19:13:41] <mozmck> And I don't think he had to change anything in rtapi
[19:13:47] <joe9> i use vulcano and 2.6.38.8
[19:13:49] <cradek> mozmck <= relevant expertise
[19:14:04] <joe9> and the git version of emc2
[19:14:57] <mozmck> I'm pretty interested in xenomai right now. It looks like it may be a viable alternative to rtai for most uses, but they seem to be more active.
[19:15:17] <mozmck> There's also support for more hardware - such as the beagleboard...
[19:16:36] <memleak> joe9, does that work as-is?
[19:17:04] <joe9> memleak: i have a patch or two on top of emc2, I think.
[19:17:05] <memleak> and which branch of emc? master? it's been a few months since I last checked..
[19:17:12] <joe9> yes, master git branch
[19:17:46] <memleak> Would you be kind of enough to post or link me to those patches for me? :))
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[19:21:20] <memleak> 2.6.38.8 RTAI vs adeos patch diff:
http://code.google.com/p/neo-technical/downloads/detail?name=diff.patch
[19:22:18] <memleak> A lot smaller than I thought it would be, but enough added code to get EMC working.
[19:22:43] <cradek> memleak: yes that's much less awful than I expected
[19:22:49] <memleak> :D
[19:23:20] <cradek> ++ return 1; __ipipe_dispatch_event(IPIPE_FIRST_EVENT - 2, 0);
[19:23:23] <cradek> uhhh what
[19:23:38] <cradek> oh I get it, never mind
[19:23:54] <cradek> very surprising whitespace
[19:23:59] <memleak> It's a bit messy.. ++ is a newly added line.
[19:24:12] <joe9> memleak: do you know if xenomai works with emc2?
[19:24:28] <joe9> rtai seems a bit like voodoo for me. i would love to move to something better
[19:24:43] <cradek> yeah I understand a diff of patches - it's a surprising resulting source line
[19:25:00] <memleak> andypugh said it does but I'm doubting him :P
[19:26:02] <memleak> if you open it up in a color-coded text editor like kate (maybe gedit as well) it'll make it all red and blue so you don't need to decipher the symbols.
[19:26:30] <joe9> memleak: just checked, no emc2 patches to get it to work.
[19:26:51] <andypugh> Hmm, I have no opnion on Xenomai, you might be mistaking me for someone cleverer.
[19:27:08] <memleak> So somebody must have fixed it upstream.. (most likely by mistake.. hehe)
[19:28:03] <memleak> sorry andypugh, almost certain it was you.
[19:28:34] <memleak> RTAI is about getting the system as real-time as possible. Xenomai isn't quite as hardcore.
[19:28:55] <memleak> Pretty code vs fast code
[19:29:00] <joe9> memleak, just checked, I did not need any patches for 2.6.38.8 + rtai vulcano + git emc2
[19:29:18] <andypugh> I have only ever used RTAI. I may have mentioned that reading a web page hinted that Xenomai has an RTAI skin, and that that ought to make LinuxCNC a little easier.
[19:29:35] <joe9> i will stick with "fast code", I guess. it works and I still have bad latency once-in-a-while.
[19:30:19] <memleak> joe9, Yeah I got that. That's why I said somebody must have fixed that upstream because a few months ago, I actually _DID_ need a patch.
[19:31:24] <memleak> Not sure if that developer intended to fix 2.6.38.8 kernels though on EMC or just coincidental removal of depreciated symbols or dead code fixed it
[19:33:12] <mozmck> I think the rtai skin was removed from the latest xenomai
[19:33:35] <memleak> "rtai skin"..?
[19:34:23] <memleak> skin meaning an RTAI compatible API?
[19:36:52] <mozmck> yes
[19:37:05] <mozmck> I see it in an old version but not the latest one.
[19:37:38] <mozmck> I'm seeing some latency numbers that look almost as good as rtai from various sources lately.
[19:37:41] <memleak> and EMC requires RTAI or something very similar or virtually 100% compatible with RTAI correct>
[19:37:58] <memleak> is that with or without the RTAI skin?
[19:38:51] <memleak> Also, I've been following RTAI for a few years now, I really don't want to become a Xenomai expert too, heh.
[19:39:01] <mozmck> linuxCNC has rtapi, which is a realtime abstraction layer. It currently handles RTAI and rtlinux.
[19:39:42] <mhaberler> I'm halfway through with xenomai, and that skin thing is really not needed - the patch is maybe 200 lines
[19:39:50] <mozmck> Ah, there he is!
[19:40:15] <mhaberler> sir? ;=
[19:41:24] <memleak> I think most of you who know me, know me by NTU :P
[19:46:52] <skunkworks> mhaberler, neat!
[19:47:03] <mhaberler> what?
[19:47:19] <skunkworks> mhaberler, did you do any tweeking on amd processors?
[19:47:28] <mhaberler> no, i dont own any
[19:47:38] <skunkworks> (xenomai)
[19:47:38] <mhaberler> need a victim for that ;)
[19:48:08] <skunkworks> I could throw it on a known good latency board and see what it does (rtai vs xenomai)
[19:48:30] <skunkworks> I think the one I am using know had sub 10us latencys
[19:48:34] <skunkworks> *now
[19:48:58] <mhaberler> if you want to give it a stab: the fetch-and-build is kindof packaged: see here
http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/linuxcnc-kernel.git/tree/22054b4e6d9a2c800be911a6b361a62189774171:/linuxcnc
[19:50:23] <mhaberler> or this for the 3.2.21 kernel:
http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/linuxcnc-kernel.git/tree/c7569797fffb424b128bf035e4ad3adbcf049086:/linuxcnc
[19:50:49] <mhaberler> the fetch-and-build.sh script should recreate the .debs as I made them
[19:50:51] <joe9> mhaberler: you have emc2 working on a 3.2.21 kernel?
[19:50:53] <mozmck> mhaberler: are you porting the kernel part or just ul?
[19:50:55] <joe9> mhaberler: that is cool.
[19:51:17] <mhaberler> no, I built xenomai kernels first; I'm working on the rtapi now
[19:51:35] <mhaberler> for now ul, until I understand it better
[19:51:40] <mozmck> I see.
[19:51:59] <memleak> mhaberler, you already have 3.2.21 working with emc? aww.. fun is over :( haha
[19:52:00] <skunkworks> ul = userland?
[19:52:03] <mhaberler> The issue is not kernel mode rt, it is our b…….d build system
[19:52:07] <mhaberler> yes
[19:53:45] <memleak> 3.2.21 only works with EMC on xenomai? So I could still do the RTAI port?
[19:53:47] <mhaberler> all these assumptions dont hold any more, same withj rt-preempt: SIM==userland==no hw drivers, or one RT arch has to be kernel (rtai as well as xenomai could be ul and kernel rt, rt-preempt likely too)
[19:53:53] <mhaberler> if you are wise: yes
[19:54:05] <memleak> mhaberler, if who is wise? me?
[19:54:06] <mhaberler> ah, misunderstood
[19:54:10] <mhaberler> sorry, forget it
[19:54:13] * memleak is so confused.
[19:54:20] <mhaberler> which RTAI port do you want to do?
[19:54:43] <memleak> 3.2.21 since 2.6.38.8 RTAI already works with EMC as confirmed by joe9
[19:55:03] <memleak> 3.2.21 only works with EMC via Xenomai, correct?
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[19:55:16] <mhaberler> I dont care about RTAI any more, it's just more of the same towards a dead end - when is enough enough?
[19:55:28] <mhaberler> it *will* work with 3.2.21
[19:55:31] <mhaberler> but not yet
[19:56:49] <memleak> I'm just really used to RTAI, been following it for a few years now.
[19:56:57] <mozmck> I'm not sure how rtai is supposed to be a dead end. It is still the only option for fast realtime.
[19:57:00] <mhaberler> fact is: we have *3* folks out there who got linuxcnc to run on xenomai in various qualities. I dont get any of these 3 to respond, mail patches, provide history, whatever
[19:57:18] <mhaberler> fine, then use it
[19:57:32] <memleak> mozmck, glad to see that you still have faith in RTAI :)
[19:57:48] <mozmck> :) I'm open to multiple options.
[19:57:58] <mhaberler> I did not propose to abandon RTAI, I think this project needs a wider OS base than a one-man-show in a research shop in Italy
[19:58:09] <mozmck> Xenomai has had support for the beagleboard for I think a couple years?
[19:58:36] <memleak> mhaberler, that one man is a genius ;)
[19:58:54] <mozmck> Unfortunately Xenomai has not many more developers who understand the core stuff either.
[19:59:03] <mhaberler> he is still *one* man, and that is the issue
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[19:59:05] <cradek> geniuses are not immune to buses
[19:59:29] <mozmck> They write the ipipe patch that the rtai folks rework.
[20:00:11] <mhaberler> re "getting used": go through the examples on xenomai - very little difference in API - docs, examples, mailing list: a different league
[20:01:19] <memleak> I'm going to get started on the 3.2.21 RTAI patch. cradek: you still want those errors when and if I get them?
[20:01:46] <cradek> not me personally. but yes you should share them before commencing hacking. here or the mailing list.
[20:02:41] <memleak> I don't know the ins and outs of EMC as well as I do RTAI so somebody else will probably have to help me fudge EMC to the newer RTAI code. I could end up breaking EMC for every other kernel except 3.2.21
[20:02:59] <mozmck> memleak: If you get somewhere I'm sure paolo would be grateful for help. You might even contact him and see if you can get what he has already done.
[20:03:24] <memleak> Just a heads up that I don't know EMC as well as some of you do here.
[20:04:32] <mozmck> I don't see the ipipe patch breaking EMC like a new version of RTAI might - but I may be all hot air there :)
[20:04:34] <memleak> I've emailed paulo many times :)
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[20:10:11] <memleak> I've had a really fun time talking about this great future for EMC. Glad to see the developers interested :)
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[21:22:45] <tissf> hi all
[21:23:07] <andypugh> Bonjour.
[21:23:27] <tissf> hi :-)
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[21:28:08] <tissf> John, the links for iso in Getting_EMC.txt are broken.
[21:28:52] <tissf> The word "lucid" should be replaced by "iso"
[21:29:04] <tissf> in the link
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[21:37:36] <mhaberler> well, standalone HAL+GladeVCP applications seem to run with the Xenomai rtapi. Motion is still unwilling ('command timeout')
[21:39:18] <mhaberler> does this error message ring any bells: Tcl_InitNotifier: unable to start notifier thread ?
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[21:41:32] <andypugh> No campanological activity over here.
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[21:57:12] <memleak> I'll be back on later. Thanks for all the support! See you soon!
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[21:57:29] <memleak> Can't wait to tackle more obstacles :)
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[22:03:46] <tissf> John is gone pasting posters?
[22:04:27] <andypugh> Possibly squashing spammers
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[22:14:01] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03tissf 05v2.5_branch 4caf4f8 06emc2 10docs/src/config/ini_config_fr.txt * French doc. update to follow John joint numbering
[22:14:02] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03tissf 05v2.5_branch 9837aa7 06emc2 10docs/ 10src/common/Document_Header_fr.txt 10src/hal/basic_hal_fr.txt 10src/index_fr.tmpl * French doc. update to follow John: clear up example
[22:14:06] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03tissf 05v2.5_branch bd29e65 06emc2 04docs/src/common/Document_Header_fr.txt * French doc. update to follow John: remove header file not used
[22:14:13] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03tissf 05v2.5_branch ce3834c 06emc2 10docs/src/common/GPLD_Copyright_fr.txt * French doc. update to follow John: copyright update
[22:14:20] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03tissf 05v2.5_branch 8175f32 06emc2 10docs/src/hal/hal-examples_fr.txt * French doc. update to follow John: HAL stand alone
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