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[00:27:17] <CIA-68> 03cmorley 07v2.5_branch * rff261b9a6015 10/src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py: pncconf -fix openloop test with 7i77 card
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[04:31:33] <mhaberler> cradek: I'm thinking through the implications of the vpt semantics for g10
[04:32:15] <mhaberler> assumption: vpt is unaware of origins, rotation, also offsets except tlo and dia
[04:32:45] <mhaberler> now: g10 l2 is easy, not affected - origin and rot only
[04:34:50] <mhaberler> G10 L1 changes both tlo and dia and therefore stands the chance of interp and vpt fall out of sync if tlo/dia changed in vpt
[04:35:12] <mhaberler> same for G10 L10 and L11
[04:36:47] <mhaberler> for G10 L1,L10,L11 I see the following options:
[04:37:41] <mhaberler> a) remove from executable language and make changable only outside runs (sledgehammer strategy to assure 'tlo/dia committed at run' requirement)
[04:39:05] <mhaberler> b) change L1,L10,L11 to 'offset of an offset' (?)
[04:40:25] <mhaberler> c) detect: say each tlo and dia has a 'change serial' in vpt: if changed in vpt, interp could detect it (if it werent past the G10 already, so its a queue buster)
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[04:52:18] <mhaberler> c) really says: "you are about to change a tlo/dia which has changed since interp started", so its a violation of the 'committed tlo/dia' requirement
[04:53:45] <mhaberler> b) is doable for tlo only, not dia - dia changes CRC curve shape, tlo does not
[04:56:40] <mhaberler> I would think the 'tlo/dia committed' requirement really means 'it must be committed by the time tlo offset is applied/crc is applied the first time'
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[05:01:03] <mhaberler> note that L1,L10,L11 already fail now if CRC is on at that point
[05:02:13] <memleak> Hello. I'm building EMC and RTAI completely from source (by hand) and when I tried running latency-test, dmesg reported two unknown symbols in rtapi; floor and frexp.
[05:02:44] <memleak> I could try stripping those out of src/rtapi/rtapi_math.h but I don't know just how safe that would be.
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[05:03:26] <mhaberler> what about restating the requirement as follows: "a tlo can be changed during run provided it is not effect at that point", which can be statically determined in the interp
[05:03:37] <mhaberler> it already is for CRC (!)
[05:04:14] <mhaberler> memleak: "stripping" is a bad idea - you'd rather want to fix the underlying build problem
[05:04:45] <memleak> I figured somebody would say that, that's why I don't want to go that route.
[05:05:21] <mhaberler> all sane minds around here would say that ;)
[05:06:19] <memleak> I had even more unknown symbols but after modifying the kernel source (IPIPE code) and fixing all the spurious interrupts and bugs, that list went from 6 or 7 unknown symbols, to 2.
[05:06:39] <memleak> I'm using kernel 2.6.38.8
[05:07:19] <memleak> My guess is that those unknown symbols have been depreciated in the IPIPE code and have either been dropped or depreciated / replaced by something else..
[05:07:55] <memleak> err.. whoops..
[05:08:34] <memleak> dropped or replaced is what I meant.
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[05:14:11] <mhaberler> cradek: another issue is semantics of evaluating #54xx
[05:16:08] <mhaberler> technically the parameter reference is a queue buster too
[05:19:31] <mhaberler> really the same as reading a HAL pin.
[05:25:27] <mhaberler> I would think its useful to stand back a bit and think about the classes of state which can be referred to in the language front end, maybe there's a common theme and method dealing with it. as seen from the interp we have:
[05:25:57] <mhaberler> a) state which is strictly local to interp.
[05:27:06] <mhaberler> b) execution state (of the vpt) which can be referred to in interp
[05:28:08] <mhaberler> c) interp state which has the potential to change b)
[05:28:43] <mhaberler> d) b) but which can change the execution of interp
[05:30:10] <mhaberler> #54xx is a class b) state which is not properly handled now
[05:31:52] <memleak> latency-test works now; 3000ns max jitter on servo thread, but now emc won't run.
http://pastebin.com/iirQzcpR any of these look familiar to anybody?
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[05:37:01] <mhaberler> maybe it helps to classify state into rvalues and lvalues, and predicates upon them, and handle the whole issue at the state level, not the language level. Example: assume #5410 (dia):
[05:37:24] <mhaberler> lvalue predicate: CRC not in effect, else assignment aborts interp.
[05:37:43] <mhaberler> rvalue predicate: sync required, since vtp may have changed it.
[05:39:59] <mhaberler> #5401-5409:
[05:40:27] <mhaberler> lvalue predicate: tool offset not in effect (this assumes t/o cannot be changed in vpt)
[05:40:39] <mhaberler> rvalue predicate: sync required
[05:51:26] <mhaberler> #123: no lvalue,rvalue predicate
[05:53:51] <mhaberler> "assignment" and "reference" to values will go through setters/getters which test the applicable predicates /assure preconditions fulfilled, only then change /yield the value
[05:54:37] <mhaberler> at this point the whole qeuebuster thing becomes invisible to the frontend language
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[05:55:52] <mhaberler> I assume the following: interp executes, say an lvalue ref requires a sync: the sync is behind the scenes - a sync is queued and interp goes to sleep until synced, execution continues
[06:03:02] <mhaberler> note that you can now 'run time type' a variable: say '#<_hal.comp.pin>' shall refer to a HAL pin's value *at that point of execution* -> tag with sync as precondition, and halpinread() as getter - done. The frontend language has no f…g clue what a queuebuster is.
[06:04:03] <mhaberler> that was state model. Now for 'queuebuster operations' - tool change, probe, read hal pin (any others?) - assume probe for now.
[06:05:19] <mhaberler> fact is: the probe per se is not a queue buster - the access to #5061 and 5070 is.
[06:08:07] <mhaberler> same for tool change, read hal pin. Nobody cares except for the result references (pin value, offsets).
[06:10:51] <mhaberler> so the conditions for a given operation is really the union of conditions for all the state it can affect
[06:13:08] <mhaberler> ok, off to some meditative lawnmowing.
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[08:26:03] <mhaberler> cradek: you what the issue with line numbers as motion id's is? It is the wrong concept. It should be a 'block serial'. And a 'block serial' maps to a line number (actually source location), but this is not a 1:1 relation - many 'block serials' may refer to the same source location
[08:27:37] <mhaberler> with 'rs274ngc classic' (no control structs) this was a 1:1 relation; control structs broke it.
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[09:58:07] <mhaberler> the 'block serial' is also the key to the historical execution state - if one were to go back
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[14:35:13] <CIA-68> 03jthornton 07v2.5_branch * r53433da74ee5 10/docs/src/gcode/o-code.txt: Docs: add note about search paths for subroutines
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[20:06:58] <mhaberler> cradek: I've written up a way to address the #54xx issue above:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?QueuebustersRevisited
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[20:07:45] <mhaberler> this should take out the need to write code to handle parameters - only change descriptors
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[20:29:15] <CIA-68> 03cradek 07master * rfbcbec10e636 10/src/emc/kinematics/ (tc.h tp.c): TP: let begin and end accels differ
[20:29:16] <CIA-68> 03cradek 07master * r436aa886a189 10/src/emc/ (kinematics/tp.c motion/control.c): TP: double available accel in most cases
[20:35:23] <skunkworks__> cradek: really? You figured it out?
[20:38:15] <cradek> this change will probably double contouring speed
[20:38:57] <skunkworks__> nice!
[20:40:07] <skunkworks__> what was it?
[20:44:26] <cradek> rewrite segment planning so accel and decel of each segment can be different, then determine when accels add at a corner to exceed a constraint and reduce by the 1/2 factor in those cases only
[20:44:45] <cradek> not exactly a simple tweak, but not a fundamental rewrite either
[20:46:49] <cradek> there's a tricky part left - when you start planning the first segment you usually don't have the second one available yet, so you can't tell what that corner will be, so you don't know what decel to use
[20:47:17] <cradek> so now *single* moves, like mdi, have full accel and half decel
[20:48:00] <cradek> the only other thing I can think to do is wait "a while" before starting the (possibly single) first move
[20:51:50] <skunkworks__> I think if the first segment is a bit slower - that is probably something people can live with
[20:51:53] <skunkworks__> :)
[20:52:33] <cradek> yeah I think it'd never be noticeable except for mdi moves. usually it gets blended anyway.
[20:52:55] <cradek> maybe someone can come up with a better solution and tweak it (but I always think that and nobody ever does)
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[20:56:38] <andypugh> I am writing a motion planner from scratch. It will never be useful.
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[21:34:44] <skunkworks__> cradek: I was just goofing around with master and was running arcspiral.ngc. when it makes its first z-.1 (line 6) it pauses before the move. not all the time though. (for a good second or so)
[21:38:07] <skunkworks__> spiral.ngc does the same thing. (pasues at the first Z-.1 move)
[21:43:20] <micges> probably it's waiting for at-speed signal from simulated spindle (or such thing)
[21:46:11] <skunkworks__> oh
[21:46:19] <skunkworks__> let me check
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[21:48:34] <skunkworks__> heh - sorry cradek, micges was right.
[22:00:55] <cradek> heh :-)
[22:01:13] <cradek> thanks for testing the change
[22:01:28] <cradek> I didn't do all that much testing.
[22:01:35] <cradek> master, you know...
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[22:11:19] <alex_joni> mhaberler: that
[22:11:27] <alex_joni> mhaberler: that's what I was worried about
[22:11:46] <alex_joni> you try to fix/tweak jogging while paused, and next comes someone who wants MDI
[22:12:17] <skunkworks__> cradek: I have been just playing with spiral.
[22:12:33] <skunkworks__> from 2.5 - master there seems to be quite an improvement.
[22:13:17] <mhaberler> a) can you follow the logic in what I laid out b) exactly why should I keep it to myself - maybe not to touch your concerns?
[22:13:46] <alex_joni> mhaberler: err.. wait, I didn't get that now
[22:14:16] <mhaberler> if you followed it, you would have noticed there's a fundamental issue in what I discussed with chris, and that shows a way how it can be dealt with
[22:14:32] <skunkworks__> I was using the master sim - axis config (rememoving the sim spindle) and increasing the MAX_LINEAR_VELOCITY = 10 (each axis is set to 4) and originally the max_linear_velocity was set to 1.2
[22:14:47] <mhaberler> so please understand this is part of my current discussion on the issue at hand
[22:15:05] <mhaberler> then please read back to the #54xx message
[22:15:21] <alex_joni> mhaberler: I think we have a communication issue
[22:15:46] <mhaberler> yes we do: you are jumping on me again without having checked yóur facts
[22:15:57] <alex_joni> I didn't mean to (and it sure doesn't) in any way sound like I'm jumping at you
[22:16:06] <skunkworks__> when the spiral was set to 200ipm - 2.5 starts at 150ipm-ish while master starts at 200ipm. (g64p.001)
[22:16:28] <skunkworks__> you can see 2.5 really drop off towards the center.
[22:16:36] <skunkworks__> cradek: great work!
[22:17:14] <alex_joni> mhaberler: I simply stated that whatever feature you enable, people will argue they need another
[22:17:46] <alex_joni> and I was worried that fixing one would imply a lot of work, and little appreciation because others don't work
[22:17:58] <mhaberler> you sure did read my answer to him which said 'this was not on the table', so exactly where is your problem
[22:18:10] <alex_joni> I don't have a problem at all
[22:18:53] <mhaberler> it is in fact good that they argue, sometimes spelling out answers clarifies the problem at hand
[22:19:43] <alex_joni> they who?
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[22:21:18] <mhaberler> the 'next who comes' - I dont have an issue with that, and I flatly dont understand your concern
[22:21:53] <alex_joni> well, then forget I said anything
[22:22:24] <mhaberler> booo ;)
[22:24:45] <alex_joni> should have added a smiley
[22:24:48] <alex_joni> here ':)'
[22:24:51] <JT-Shop> lol
[22:27:55] <skunkworks__> cradek: I think there are going to be a lot of happy people with those changes... It's a good percent improvement..
[22:29:03] <alex_joni> backport candidate after more testing?
[22:33:31] <andypugh> mhaberler: You really do think about stuff don't you?
[22:33:51] <mhaberler> alex_joni: sorry, I really misread what you said
[22:34:11] <mhaberler> lawnmowing sometimes helps
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[22:38:27] <skunkworks__> alex_joni: maybe... :)
[22:39:24] <mhaberler> that wasnt a suggestion for alex;)
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