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[00:01:09] <JT-Shop> jepler: I'm just saying it was not intuitive and a bit confusing on the file name and name and I know read the docs more than most but it caught me off guard
[00:02:23] <JT-Shop> time to close this dial up connection see you guys in the morning
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[00:05:16] <jepler> poor jt
[00:05:20] <jepler> someone should airlift him an internet
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[00:49:40] <seb_kuzminsky> "daddy, where do people go when they disconnect from the internet?"
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[01:44:06] <seb_kuzminsky> jepler: the new version of comp-paranoia is even more better
[01:44:56] <seb_kuzminsky> it adds a couple of commits on top of what you already reviewed, that prefix a bunch of generated variables with "__comp_", to make them harder to collide with by mistake
[01:45:33] <seb_kuzminsky> if you dont object i'll push this latest version
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[05:38:34] <CIA-51> 03seb 07v2.5_branch * r4b307201ac5c 10/docs/src/config/ (5 files): docs: fix a typo in example RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE
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[07:02:41] <seb_kuzminsky> why doesn't axis switch to World mode once it's homed? is there some reason to stay in Joint mode? the current behavior is annoying on gantry machines
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[11:54:02] <alex_joni> hey jthornton
[11:54:35] <jthornton> hey alex_joni
[11:55:11] <alex_joni> I started getting email notifications
[11:55:26] <alex_joni> is there a certain review procedure? or do you just look at the names, and decide which one looks legit?
[11:55:41] <jthornton> cool
[11:55:58] <jthornton> I go to ... hold a sec let me see
[11:56:39] <jthornton> components > community builder > user managment
[11:57:07] <jthornton> select Unapproved in the right most drop down box
[11:57:40] <jthornton> any one that has been confirmed click on the name if it looks legit
[11:58:18] <jthornton> then look on the Contact Info tab to see if everything looks legit
[11:59:10] <jthornton> if so then cancel the edit and click Approved
[11:59:23] <jthornton> all the rest I just delete
[12:03:17] <jthornton> I talked to the owner of the ISP yesterday and they are supposed to fix my broadband for the remainder of the month so I have that long to get satellite which seems to be the only option where I live
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[16:18:33] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: it seems like there is or was something important missing from world-mode jogging, but I don't know offhand what it is. no incremental jogs?
[16:19:03] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: so for trivkins machines the experience is or was strictly better by using joint mode jogging than world mode jogging
[16:20:01] <cradek> yes world mode jogging doesn't have incremental
[16:20:04] <cradek> doesn't have wheel support
[16:20:29] <cradek> seems to be broken for abc? accel handling is wrong maybe?
[16:20:35] <cradek> doesn't support uvw axes at all
[16:20:41] <cradek> (all iirc)
[16:21:00] <cradek> (I say this rarely but) it needs a complete rewrite
[16:21:15] <cradek> the rewrite may have already been started in ja3
[16:23:25] <micges> world mode jogging, incremental is working in ja3
[16:23:47] <cradek> yay
[16:23:59] <micges> I've tested jogwheel but I don't remember if patches was included to repo
[16:24:22] <micges> even if not it wasn't much of it
[16:25:20] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: with all that said, I'd sure think about adding an option to select world mode after homing if you think it would be a better experience on a gantry machine in view of the current limitations
[16:25:32] <jepler> that is, I'd be happy to review the patch
[16:27:05] <pgf> is there a technical reason that simulator packages aren't built for every ubuntu release? i'm mainly curious. (i can certainly build my own.)
[16:28:27] <jepler> often a newer ubuntu release has packages on our buildbot (at the moment, "precise" has packages):
http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
[16:31:30] <pgf> thanks. so the implication is that the reason the sim packages are only built for the supported releases is simply that the package building machinery is only run for those supported releases. makes sense.
[16:32:48] <jepler> buildbot is nice and automated, but our system for getting the stable release packages onto
http://www.linuxcnc.org/ is less so.
[16:33:15] <pgf> nod
[16:33:19] <jepler> though buildbot itself needs work when a new distro version is to be supported
[16:33:28] <skunkworks> could the buildbot build the livecd's for lucid and whatever the old one is?
[16:33:29] <jepler> and it sometimes seems like ubuntu releases happen more frequently than our point releases :-/
[16:33:40] <jepler> skunkworks: oh in theory
[16:33:50] <skunkworks> heron
[16:34:00] <jepler> but the last thing seb needs is people thinking they should download 700 meg isos from his personal server every time somebody makes a git commit
[16:34:12] <jepler> if you want the latest, install live cd then upgrade via apt
[16:34:25] * jepler bangs his fist on the table for emphasis
[16:35:01] <skunkworks> oh sure.. I just know that more than one person has run into bugs becuase they didn't update to the latest linuxcnc from what was on the livecd
[16:35:33] <skunkworks> heh
[16:39:53] <cradek> one of us (ahem) should make a wiki page that answers the question about when and what and why to upgrade
[16:39:56] <cradek> we see that on the list a lot lately
[16:40:04] <cradek> there is a lot of "never upgrade - it will break" fud
[16:40:32] <cradek> it's true that the upgrade manager sometimes offers a full OS version change, which is bad
[16:40:48] <cradek> long long ago there were screenshots of this explaining it (I think for 5.10)
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[16:42:09] <cradek> reinstalling the whole OS to update is an extremely foolish practice from our shameful past
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[17:13:30] <GoSebGo> Skunkworks: i'd like to add livecd building to the buildbot, but havent gotten around to it yet
[17:14:28] <GoSebGo> Jepler: thanks for reminding me that world-mode is more broken than joint-mode on trivkins machines, i'd forgotten that
[17:14:44] <GoSebGo> I mean for jogging
[17:15:07] <GoSebGo> I'll look at adding an option to select the post-homed state
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[18:50:25] <GoSebGo> Whoops, ini_config.txt talks about [TRAJ]AXES, but Axis looks for [TRAJ]JOINTS
[18:50:42] <IchGuckLive> Hi mhabler does remap util kno the tooldiameter loadet ?
[18:51:03] <IchGuckLive> mhaberler: ?
[18:51:36] <GoSebGo> Our sim/axis/gantry.ini uses AXES=4, and Axis only shows 3 joints when in Free mode
[18:52:15] <GoSebGo> I thonk Axis is right and the config documentation & sample configs are wrong
[18:52:35] <IchGuckLive> why are there now so many sims at all
[18:53:28] <IchGuckLive> what is the different between the gantry and the standard axis
[18:53:29] <GoSebGo> To simulate lots of different kinds of machines and setups
[18:53:49] <GoSebGo> Gantry has two joints on one of its axes
[18:54:42] <IchGuckLive> arend in real mashinery the joints connected
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[18:56:14] <IchGuckLive> GoSebGo: i for example direct the step dir signal to 2 seperat pins of the card for the second motor of the portal
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[18:56:42] <GoSebGo> Usually the motors are independently controlled
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[18:57:08] <IchGuckLive> ok
[18:57:15] <GoSebGo> So if one motor looses a step, you can home them independently to square the gantry up
[18:58:33] <IchGuckLive> therfor i use a XYUV mashine setup and home all alone
[18:58:41] <mhaberler> was war bitte die Frage?
[18:58:58] <IchGuckLive> does remap util kno the tooldiameter loadet ?
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[19:21:29] <cradek> GoSebGo: are you using gantrykins on the wood router you've been using?
[19:21:42] <GoSebGo> Yes
[19:22:02] <GoSebGo> And it's all kinds of broken... ;-)
[19:22:09] <cradek> is it steppers or servos? how do you home it?
[19:22:17] <cradek> yeah I'm sure it's awful, that's why I asked
[19:22:52] <GoSebGo> Steppers. With encoders terminated in the stepper amps....
[19:23:02] <cradek> weird
[19:23:15] <GoSebGo> Homes to shared limit/home switches
[19:23:20] <skunkworks> compumotor?
[19:24:07] <cradek> do you remember the fake gantry with indexed encoders I made? I've still got it if you're interested in it.
[19:24:25] <GoSebGo> The amps are marked "Moto Omusa"
[19:24:33] <skunkworks> huh..
[19:24:56] <GoSebGo> They're what Shopbot sells (or sold, two years or so ago)
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[19:29:20] <GoSebGo> I have the docs for the amps & steppers, basic motion is working pretty well
[19:29:42] <GoSebGo> Thing are good in Free mode :-)
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[19:31:08] <cradek> are you using 2.5?
[19:31:43] <GoSebGo> Yes, one of the first things i did was upgrade to 2.5-pre
[19:32:52] <cradek> It seems that we (?) could make a realtime component that slaves two joints smartly
[19:33:14] <cradek> and that handles homing to index, etc
[19:33:21] <GoSebGo> I remember you talking about that earlier
[19:33:39] <cradek> yeah apparently I've tried before to get you interested
[19:33:51] <GoSebGo> Heh
[19:34:07] <cradek> or maybe it would have to go in motion, but I'd rather it didn't
[19:34:09] <GoSebGo> Now i'm motivated ;-)
[19:34:18] <SWPadnos_> maybe we need Stuart to donate a 20-ton gantry, to make it more interesting :)
[19:34:29] <cradek> the axis.N interface is pretty stable and if we (?) could do it in a module, it'd be useful on all versions
[19:34:40] <cradek> obviously the advantage is it'd let you stay in free mode
[19:34:57] <cradek> I mean joint mode
[19:35:00] <cradek> y'know
[19:35:18] <SWPadnos_> those terms are still backwards, aren't they?
[19:35:27] <SWPadnos_> or something
[19:35:28] <GoSebGo> I think free is joint and teleop is world?
[19:35:30] <cradek> what terms
[19:35:46] <SWPadnos_> free / joint / teleop / world / $whatever
[19:36:01] <cradek> the ui modes and the motion modes don't map 1:1
[19:36:05] <SWPadnos_> right
[19:36:30] <SWPadnos_> more like 3:2
[19:36:36] <micges> how so?
[19:36:41] <GoSebGo> Ui modes are made up, motion modes are real ;-)
[19:36:44] <cradek> ui modes are joint and teleop/world. I think the motion modes are free and coordinated.
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[19:37:23] <SWPadnos_> ah yes. free = individual planners for each joint, coordinated = one planner for all joints (more or less)
[19:37:28] <GoSebGo> Motion modes are free, teleop, and coordinated
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[19:37:45] <cradek> ok that sounds right
[19:37:47] <SWPadnos_> in the TP?
[19:37:58] <GoSebGo> Teleop is vel-cmd jog, coord is line/circle motions
[19:37:59] <cradek> ui is joint and (sometimes) world
[19:38:11] <SWPadnos_> right, teleop is "manual coordinated" for the most part (right?)
[19:38:33] <cradek> how teleop works depends which branch you're in
[19:38:36] <SWPadnos_> heh
[19:38:49] <GoSebGo> Teleop is continuous jpg in world coordinates
[19:39:12] <SWPadnos_> right - move left/right, even on non-trivkins machines
[19:39:16] <cradek> yes in non-ja3, it's velocity-based jogging in world coords
[19:39:33] <cradek> in ja3, there's position-based jogging in world coords
[19:39:43] <GoSebGo> Great!
[19:40:07] <cradek> way more than 80% done is my impression
[19:40:09] <GoSebGo> Maybe we (?) Should merge ja3 early in the 2.6 cycle
[19:40:17] <SWPadnos_> h, so you can only do continuous jog in teleop (in non-ja3)?
[19:40:29] <SWPadnos_> s/h/hmmm/
[19:40:32] <cradek> yes we(?)'ve considered it
[19:40:35] <GoSebGo> Swpadnos: right
[19:40:42] <cradek> SWPadnos_: yes, and that sucks
[19:40:49] <SWPadnos_> ok, thanks. those terms have never made sense to me
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[19:41:01] <SWPadnos_> they probably won't again in about 20 minutes :)
[19:41:27] <GoSebGo> Another fun fact: soft limits dont work in teleop mode on nontrivkins
[19:41:53] <cradek> that's not too surprising
[19:41:57] <GoSebGo> It'll happily jog at 1080(!) Ipm into the limit switches
[19:42:01] <jepler> SWPadnos_: how's the look up table?
[19:42:24] <GoSebGo> Cradek: it surprised me!
[19:42:26] <SWPadnos_> jepler: I haven't done anything with that since we discussed it
[19:42:42] <SWPadnos_> that was Saturday, wasn't it?
[19:42:48] <SWPadnos_> or Sunday
[19:42:57] <jepler> it was a weekday
[19:42:57] <SWPadnos_> too hard to remember
[19:43:00] <SWPadnos_> oh
[19:43:02] <jepler> in the past
[19:43:08] <SWPadnos_> phew
[19:43:25] <cradek> GoSebGo: is this at your hackspace in boulder?
[19:43:48] <GoSebGo> No, it's at a friend's shop
[19:44:15] <GoSebGo> Lepton, he used to hang around here a while back
[19:45:37] <GoSebGo> Kid bought a new shopbot, half-upgraded it to linuxcnc, then lost interest and it's been sitting idle until now....
[19:45:59] <SWPadnos_> kids these days ...
[19:46:08] <jepler> SWPadnos_: how's your hardinge?
[19:46:18] <SWPadnos_> sure, rub it in
[19:46:28] <jepler> oh, I see, you're glad at the idea of being a kid
[19:46:38] <SWPadnos_> kids have a long way to go to catch up with my level of procrastination
[19:46:45] <SWPadnos_> I'm much older and more experienced
[19:47:12] <jepler> and you've got a massive head start
[19:48:32] <GoSebGo> Did you guys see the [traj]
[19:48:35] <GoSebGo> Oops
[19:48:54] <GoSebGo> Axes vs joints config snafu i described above?
[19:49:16] <cradek> are you drunk?
[19:49:19] <GoSebGo> Way above
[19:49:32] <skunkworks> BTW - we are expecting our fist child....
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[19:49:39] <GoSebGo> Not yet
[19:49:39] <skunkworks> first!
[19:49:44] <GoSebGo> Haha
[19:49:46] <cradek> hahah
[19:49:53] <GoSebGo> Congrats!
[19:49:55] <skunkworks> Thanks
[19:49:56] <SWPadnos_> skunkworks: congrats
[19:50:02] <cradek> yay
[19:50:02] <SWPadnos_> better sleep now
[19:50:05] <SWPadnos_> while you still can
[19:50:11] <skunkworks> middle of august - all hell breaks loose...
[19:50:26] <micges> skunkworks: congrats
[19:50:32] <GoSebGo> Good job, the world needs more of you :-)
[19:50:41] <skunkworks> heh - thanks again
[19:50:41] <cradek> eek
[19:52:41] <skunkworks> I hope he/she spells better...
[19:53:04] <GoSebGo> Our sample configs agree with our docs, but Axis does not, so none of it works
[19:53:46] <cradek> what are your 4 axes?
[19:54:00] <GoSebGo> sim/axis/gantry shows 3 joints in joint/free mode, instead of 4
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[19:54:18] <GoSebGo> X, y1, z, y2
[19:54:41] <cradek> ok you have 4 joints, 3 axes?
[19:54:48] <GoSebGo> Yes
[19:55:05] <cradek> I think it's all borken if the numbers don't match
[19:55:44] <cradek> aren't you just doomed if you're not using ja3? I don't think you can tweak it one more time and have it all work, but please prove me wrong if you can
[19:55:45] <GoSebGo> If you replace [traj]axes with [traj]joints in the ini, it works
[19:56:15] <cradek> what tells motion how many (misnamed) axis.n sets to make?
[19:56:37] <GoSebGo> I mean this one little thing, at least
[19:57:06] <GoSebGo> I'm not sure... The [axis_*] sections i think
[19:57:39] <GoSebGo> Then gantrykins takes a modparam to map them to axes
[20:00:39] <micges> seems to be Axis problem, emctop shows proper numbers
[20:01:20] <GoSebGo> I agree the problem is Axis doesnt match the docs
[20:02:04] <cradek> you're closer to it than anyone, so I guess change it? I dunno.
[20:02:20] <GoSebGo> Axis calls the variable "joints", which is correct, the docs & configs call it "axes", which is wrong
[20:02:50] <GoSebGo> I guess i'll teach axis about axes for now
[20:03:24] <jepler> -num_joints = int(inifile.find("TRAJ", "JOINTS") or live_axis_count)
[20:03:25] <jepler> +num_joints = int(inifile.find("TRAJ", "JOINTS")
[20:03:25] <jepler> + or inifile.find("TRAJ", "AXES")
[20:03:25] <jepler> + or live_axis_count)
[20:03:29] <jepler> maybe?
[20:04:06] <cradek> I have a nagging feeling
[20:04:06] <jepler> this 'or' selects the RHS when the LHS is false, and an empty string is false.
[20:04:09] <cradek> let me dig
[20:04:11] <GoSebGo> What's live_axis_count?
[20:04:50] <jepler> it's determined just above by looking at the mask of axes in the stat buffer
[20:04:58] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/ini_config.html#_traj_section_a_id_sub_traj_section_a
[20:05:12] <cradek> [TRAJ]AXES is not the number of axes OR the number of joints
[20:05:15] <jepler> so basically, the current code says 'look at [TRAJ]JOINTS, but if that's empty then #joints == #axes'
[20:05:53] <jepler> and I'm saying 'look at [TRAJ]JOINTS, but if that's empty then look at [TRAJ]AXES (for compatibility with some readings of the docs), but if they're both empty look at the number of axes'
[20:05:57] <micges> to proper setup gantry machine in v2.5 you must have joints==axes
[20:06:07] <cradek> my feeling matches micges's
[20:06:36] <micges> it was always that way
[20:07:38] <GoSebGo> Cradek: the way i read that doc, traj axes is the number of joints
[20:07:55] <cradek> GoSebGo: for triv and kins, or just kins?
[20:08:06] <GoSebGo> For anything
[20:08:09] <cradek> for triv it's certainly not as you say
[20:08:55] <GoSebGo> " One more than the number of the highest joint number in the system."
[20:09:15] <cradek> read a few more sentences
[20:09:18] <GoSebGo> What am i missing?
[20:09:35] <jepler> if you're using trivkins
[20:09:38] <GoSebGo> Guh
[20:09:39] <jepler> and you have axes XYZBC
[20:09:47] <jepler> then the highest joint number is 5 for C
[20:13:07] <cradek> that's why in that case (in v2.5) you make AXES=6 and make a dummy AXIS_3 (A) entry
[20:15:12] <cradek> it's afu
[20:15:23] <GoSebGo> Axis 3 would be unused, 4 would be B, and 5 would be C
[20:15:28] <cradek> yes
[20:15:28] <GoSebGo> Afu indeed
[20:16:08] <cradek> I suggest for your app trying to work in trivkins mode with the gantryish stuff in hal, or trying to use ja3, bravely testing for a future merge
[20:16:20] <GoSebGo> <barbie voice>nontrivkins is hard
[20:16:30] <skunkworks> heh
[20:16:31] <cradek> I don't suggest trying to tweak it into working right - everything is wrong and most of it's already tweaked in ja3
[20:16:42] <GoSebGo> Ok
[20:16:43] <cradek> you'd be redoing lots of work for no reason
[20:17:23] <GoSebGo> The machine is currently (somewhat) functional with gantrykins
[20:17:43] <GoSebGo> I'll look into wroting a slave-joint comp
[20:18:33] <GoSebGo> I need this machine to make parts for a few months, then i can take it down & experiment
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[20:28:55] <cradek> I think slave-joint would be awesome if it's possible, and it would serve a lot of people nicely through the 2.5 cycle and perhaps beyond if we can't merge ja3 yet
[20:29:17] <cradek> I have not thought it through carefully enough to be sure there's no catch
[20:30:01] <cradek> if it would have to know about all the homing types etc., that'd be pretty awful and it would be better to put it in motion
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[20:33:20] <CIA-51> 03cradek 07v2.5_branch * r56f16c86d260 10/docs/src/config/ini_config.txt: This was ambiguous and the simplest reading was the wrong one
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[23:57:32] <JT-Shop> interesting in Axis 2.5 if you press run without a file loaded a blank error pops up
[23:58:23] <alex_joni> sounds fair.. you don't give me a file, I don't give you an error message