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[02:54:45] <KimK> After breaking things further (to the point of English 0, French 0), I have learned about "make -d ...", which (in the case of my failing builds) has increased the make logfile outputs from about 3k lines to about 75k lines, very helpful. I have now been able to restore things to where they were (English 4, French 0). Keep your fingers crossed.
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[03:00:07] <KimK> Also, I have learned there's a Maker Group in Omaha:
http://omahamakergroup.org/ And they have received some donated old robot arms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLyf72AI3D8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epxJ1ymompc I just joined their Google group. I plan to go to their BBQ Sat June 25 and chat. Maybe I'll give a presentation on EMC2 sometime.
[03:01:16] <KimK> The event is the OMGWTFBBQ. The Omaha Maker Group Where's The Food Bar-B-Que. (Why, what did *you* think it was?)
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[16:13:42] <rayh> I see that the links in the gcode quick reference in a stock 2.6 install seem to be broken.
[16:20:04] <rayh> They refer to gcode_main but the current link is gcode/main
[16:25:17] <rayh> What seems to have happened is that the quick reference refers to the devel directory at linuxcnc.org rather than the 2.4 directory.
[16:25:30] <SWPadnos> hi rayh
[16:25:47] <SWPadnos> 2.6 is devel. are you talking about 2.4.6?
[16:25:59] <SWPadnos> (I don't know that 2.6 actually exists)
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[16:29:32] <rayh> Hi Steven
[16:29:46] <skunkworks___> rayh: !
[16:29:54] <rayh> Yes I'm working 2.4.6
[16:29:55] <SWPadnos> hey. long time no see :)
[16:29:58] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[16:30:04] <rayh> Hi Sam
[16:30:19] <rayh> It has been a long time.
[16:30:37] <rayh> Business is settling out a bit these days.
[16:31:09] <skunkworks___> rayh: have you been keeping up with the list? or do I need to link a bunch of videos of the Kearney and Trecker? ;)
[16:32:01] <rayh> I've been away so link or send to my e addy.
[16:33:32] <skunkworks___> rayh: this one pretty much shows it all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39q6kvrSBSk
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[16:34:08] <rayh> looking
[16:36:08] <rayh> Wah! Even slows the chain down as the correct tool approaches the front.
[16:36:50] <skunkworks___> yes - we pretty much emulated how the old control did it
[16:37:01] <skunkworks___> figured it worked...
[16:39:41] <rayh> Great work, Sam. What boards did you use?
[16:41:55] <skunkworks___> 2 mesa 5i20's with 2 analog daughter boards (one 4 axis and 1 6 axis). It totals 96gpio and 10 axis
[16:42:07] <skunkworks___> all the i/o is done with opto22's
[16:42:52] <skunkworks___> I have pretty much used up the raw i/o
[16:42:57] <rayh> Fantastic.
[16:43:53] <skunkworks___> some ladder and some comp programming. (16 speed gear box was done in a comp)
[16:44:18] <skunkworks___> it was just easier for me to do that is c - although I am sure it could have been done in ladder
[16:45:10] <rayh> You running production with it?
[16:45:56] <skunkworks___> My own projects - yes. (I have had a backlog of projects that have been on hold since the thing went down)
[16:46:08] <skunkworks___> about 4 years ago ;)
[16:46:46] <rayh> Beautiful looking machine.
[16:47:55] <skunkworks___> it is built very well. very happy with the conversion. emc fit perfectly
[16:48:04] <rayh> I'd be willing to be that Todd cut the gears in that spindle gearbox.
[16:49:16] <skunkworks___> we initally though about taking out the z axis gear train - (it has a ball spline and about 5 split gears) but after adjusting the gear loading - we got the backlash out of the system)
[16:49:57] <rayh> For something like 16 speeds the ladder would be fairly long and convoluted. Comp is probably a lot cleaner.
[16:50:37] <skunkworks___> yes - it is pretty short - although it probably could be made better. (it does a lot of things - spindle lock and such)
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[16:52:21] <skunkworks___> handles spindle overide (so it doesn't try to shift as you slow or speed the spindle)
[16:53:52] <rayh> Great work, Sam. Someday I've got to get over there and watch it for real.
[16:54:42] <KimK> Hi Ray, Hi all. I've gotten the v2.5 docs debugged (I think). If so, I'll post them later on my website for previewing and comments and send an email to both lists announcing it. I ended up changing the HTML layout too, to match the manual. So now I can have both PDF users *and* HTML users mad at me, lol!
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[16:56:41] <skunkworks___> KimK: thanks for working on this!
[16:56:53] <rayh> KimK I remember upsetting folk a lot of years ago. Thanks for your work.
[17:03:18] <KimK> Ray, I will try to get this done this weekend, so it's (at least a little bit) in advance of the Workshop. Hopefully you'll have the "new" docs available too, in case that helps. Sorry I can't be there with you.
[17:04:44] <KimK> Got to run an errand, back after while. Keep posting, I'll read back.
[17:05:54] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I wonder if I should go to the workshop
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[17:21:27] <rayh> Hum. Yes
[17:22:03] <rayh> You keeping busy these days, Steven
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[17:30:13] <psha> KimK: sorry for no response regarding docs - i'm currently overwhelmed with work and ICFPC 2011
[17:30:35] <psha> btw is it ok to have Z in degrees and not linear?
[17:30:48] <skunkworks___> rayh: what have you been up to?
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[17:33:41] <rayh> Building up my carving block business.
[17:34:48] <skunkworks___> going well?
[17:41:00] <rayh> Yes.
[17:41:34] <rayh> I"ve got four part time folk doing most of the work.
[17:42:20] <rayh> Just finished up an additional 2k square feet of storage.
[17:45:05] <skunkworks___> awesome!
[17:47:27] <rayh> Even your K&T might fit.
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[18:01:15] <skunkworks___> heh
[18:01:25] <skunkworks___> just need a few feet of concrete
[18:05:52] * KimK is back from errand
[18:07:27] <KimK> psha: No problem. As soon as I learned about the "-d" for "make", I had 75k lines of logfile instead of 3k lines, and that was a *big* help.
[18:09:56] <KimK> psha: I think in reality, Z can only be linear, because it must go along with X & Y to make real-world 3D coordinates, but if you're just cooking up something, and you just want it to work, and you don't care about Z working with X & Y, then maybe OK?
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[18:11:36] <psha> i need coordinates moves
[18:11:50] <KimK> Can you use "C"?
[18:12:05] <psha> as i recall there is nothing special even in trivkins about axis type
[18:12:38] <psha> so quick question is maybe i may just change axis_type in ini and everything will be ok?
[18:12:43] <KimK> C is rotation around Z.
[18:13:51] <psha> that's what i need
[18:14:03] <psha> linear x, y and turning table
[18:14:10] <psha> thx
[18:14:11] <KimK> Well, maybe. It's kind of a given that XYZ are linear, ABC are rotary, and UVW are linear. I think if you go against this too much, you'll be swimming upstream.
[18:14:20] <KimK> Yes, sounds like C would work.
[18:14:55] <psha> usually i supplement my ignorance with source reading skills ;)
[18:15:18] <psha> but i've not noticed anything important about axis types...
[18:15:36] <KimK> Ha, source reading is a good thing, but with EMC2 I think that would be the hard way.
[18:15:44] <psha> may i have XYC axes - i mean 3 of them only, not 6
[18:15:59] <KimK> Besides, maybe soon I'll have improved docs for everyone.
[18:16:43] <KimK> Yes, Although how you're going to make anything useful happen is unclear. Is there a manual quill or something?
[18:16:56] <psha> custom gui
[18:17:42] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/p/cnccutter.png
[18:18:45] <psha> so limitations of Axis or other gui's are not important
[18:18:57] <KimK> Cool. Is there a picture of the machine involved?
[18:19:17] <psha> not yet :)
[18:19:51] <psha> also i've only part of that machine - only moving table
[18:20:14] <psha> everthing else (camera mounts, heaters, knife, etc...) i've not seen
[18:20:25] <KimK> No, no limitations, I don't think. Although you might have to accept the presence on the display of Z, A, B, that won't go away, and won't move either.
[18:21:12] <psha> heh, to rename axis all i need is to fix hal and glade files :)
[18:21:34] <psha> i may name then with 'that long one axis', 'short one' and 'rotational'
[18:22:04] <psha> s/then/them/
[18:22:41] <KimK> Ha, OK, well, it's open source, so do whatever you like, I guess? (In accordance w/ GPL #x, anyway)
[18:24:37] <psha> heh, it's even not hardcoded anywhere - just glade file and hal file
[18:24:52] <psha> question of eye candyness
[18:25:38] <psha> for unknown reason customer wants Z :)
[18:27:13] <KimK> Ha, OK. Make him sign a disclaimer that his request goes against the established ways of doing things and that you cannot be responsible for problems, etc., blah, blah.
[18:28:25] <psha> :))
[18:28:30] <KimK> Z is Z and C is C.
[18:29:06] <psha> so returning to dumb question - may i have XYC without ZAB?
[18:29:40] <psha> is it just a matter of COORDINATS = X Y C
[18:29:40] <psha> ?
[18:29:57] <psha> COORDINATES
[18:30:12] * psha has to throw away keyboard and buy new
[18:30:34] <psha> but BTC is not producing 6300C keyboards anymore :(
[18:31:03] <dgarr> psha: an sim example of an XZC machine might help:
http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/stuff/xzc.ini
[18:31:12] <KimK> I think you have to have the intervening ZAB, but I might be wrong. cradek would be the one to ask , he may have some suggestions on this.
[18:31:22] <psha> dgarr: thanks a lot!
[18:32:10] <psha> so i have to fix COORDINATES and rename AXIS_2 to AXIS_5
[18:32:44] <psha> dgarr: very readable config, thanks again
[18:32:58] <dgarr> and the trick is to set [TRAJ AXES=6
[18:33:06] <dgarr> welcom
[18:33:26] <KimK> See, now with XZC you have a way to make something useful happen. Z can intersect X and/or C. With XYC you have the problem of how to cut anything. Unless you're just looking with a camera.
[18:34:19] <KimK> Or maybe there's some kind of fixed spindle, which is not mentioned?
[18:36:16] <KimK> Or maybe there's a manual axis involved, like an XY router where there's a manual raise/lower to begin cutting?
[18:39:25] <psha> KimK: no, it's positional table - no drilling or milling
[18:39:27] <psha> cutting
[18:39:35] <psha> pneumatic knife
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[18:41:06] <KimK> Oh, OK. Then Z can be your up/down. Maybe +Z values activate "air up" solenoid, and -Z values activate "air down" solenoid?
[18:41:48] <KimK> OK, I guess Z zero can be "up" too.
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[18:46:07] <KimK> Now that I know what you're working on, you suddenly have my undivided attention, lol. I have has in the back of my mind a similar project for some time. I have saved an old wall mounted pen plotter for years because the company at one time offered a conversion kit to vinyl knife. But two problems: (1) kit costs $1000! (2) Only provides free-swiveling knife! So their kit option is no good.
[18:46:38] <KimK> So I want to convert it using EMC2. ANd now I see that's exactly what you are working on, great!
[18:47:18] <psha> valves are activated with output pin
[18:47:38] <KimK> Except I'll make mine a full-servo axis on Z, I don't want to drag around an air compressor, lol!
[18:49:14] <SWPadnos> rayh, yes, pretty busy :) you?
[18:49:25] <KimK> psha: Yes, exactly, an output pin. Only instead of using simple gpio (what, M100-M199?), control it from HAL Z command values and a HAL comparator.
[18:50:01] <SWPadnos> I went on 23 business trips last year. I haven't gone anywhere in the last 6 weeks or so, but I have already flown ~55k miles this year
[18:50:31] <psha> KimK: yes, possible solution - if you need complex automation
[18:50:56] <psha> in my case customer don't want any programming so gpio is better (more simple) solution
[18:51:51] <KimK> psha: Ha, OK. Tell him Einstein said, "Everything should be as simple as possible. But no simpler."
[18:53:34] <psha> currently they have fully manual cutter so even semi-automatic would be great for them :)
[18:54:21] <SWPadnos> psha, have you figured out how to slow motion while the knife re-orients?
[18:54:46] <psha> SWPadnos: knife is fixed
[18:54:51] <psha> table is moving
[18:54:56] <SWPadnos> oh, then what's C for?
[18:55:05] <psha> table rotation
[18:55:08] <SWPadnos> eek
[18:55:11] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:55:36] <KimK> I think he means the table rotates under the knife. (Ah, yes, you got it. )
[18:55:39] <SWPadnos> yep
[18:56:01] <SWPadnos> is C programmed or is it being automatically calculated from the XY motion?
[18:56:48] <SWPadnos> (I can't see it being automatic with a rotating table - knife maybe, table no)
[18:57:07] <KimK> Mine would be the other way, knife rotates and raise/lowers from an X/Y shallow gantry (or travelling cross-beam).
[18:58:08] <psha> SWPadnos: no programming - some pre-defined moves (load <-> camera <-> knife)
[18:58:33] <psha> camera - knife need have small error
[18:59:05] <KimK> I intend to program mine (add the missing C vectors, I mean) by using InkScape or similar.
[19:00:01] <KimK> Start with X/Y shape. Add the C vectors. Then cut.
[19:01:33] <SWPadnos> inkscape or something is probably the best bet. I can't see how to get HAL to tell the motion controller that it needs to slow down so the knife can rotate (like at a cusp)
[19:03:31] <KimK> Yikes! My pen plotter is about 3 ft x 4 ft. That's a 5 ft diagonal. If I had to swing (rotate) the table while the pen was poised over one corner, that would require a 10 ft dia. circle! psha, how big is the plotting area on your machine? (I hope not too big!)
[19:05:20] <psha> small - 500mm x 35mm
[19:06:09] <KimK> OK. (Whew!)
[19:06:45] <psha> with angular axis i don't need to set min/max?
[19:07:19] <KimK> travel limit? No, not if you mark it as "continuous"
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[19:09:51] <KimK> Ha, "I'm gone", good one, Ray.
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[19:22:37] <psha> KimK: hm, how may i mark it as continuous? don't see anything in dgarr's config
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[19:27:47] <SWPadnos> WRAPPED_ROTARY=1 or similar
[19:27:50] <SWPadnos> maybe :)
[19:29:22] <KimK> psha: Sorry, I was AFK for a bit.
[19:29:22] <psha> thx
[19:29:32] <KimK> SWPadnos: Thanks also
[19:29:46] <SWPadnos> err -you're welcome. for what? :)
[19:30:15] <KimK> For answering psha while I was AFK
[19:30:22] <SWPadnos> oh. well sure
[19:38:49] <KimK> psha: You said you need a new keyboard. Don't feel bad, I need a new mouse. Mine has gone into some kind of high-speed debounce (that is, totally ineffective debounce). So if I want to click a checkbox, I go ...c l i c k... and my mouse goes "yesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesnoyesno", so it's a coin toss what I will get.
[19:41:03] <psha> :))
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[20:46:52] <KimK> Hey, psha? What do you mean, no rotary travel limits? Isn't the X/Y table mounted above the C rotary? The C rotary doesn't have slip rings, does it? What do you do about the X/Y motor leads to the table? (Steppers, I presume, so no encoders?) Especially since there's such a large potential travel as the table swings around everywhere? What keeps you from going round-and-round and breaking off the X/Y motor leads?
[20:47:29] <psha> C on top
[20:47:46] <psha> Y is longest, X and C are mounted on it
[20:48:04] <KimK> Ah, OK. That's better. Had me worried there for a minute.
[20:48:05] <psha> top most part is rotary table so it has no limits
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[22:54:57] Tech_Talk is now known as
Birdman3131
[22:56:46] <tom3p> i dunno what rayh needed but the vid from the antwerp high school shows off multiaxis relations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjPCEpZybXs&NR=1
[22:56:47] <tom3p> so unless ray has the actual max5, the vid may suffice
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