#emc-devel | Logs for 2010-12-09

[01:00:13] <jepler> someone should email the lists about the necessary apt sources.list change
[01:00:35] <jepler> btw cnames to dyndns names work moderately well
[08:29:58] <psha> mhaberler: good morning
[08:30:16] <mhaberler> psha: hi, how are you
[08:30:32] <psha> fine :)
[08:30:41] <mhaberler> I saw you 'passing by' on my server ;-)
[08:30:46] <psha> have you read my mail?
[08:31:12] <psha> i think it's better to select column by property in glade
[08:31:40] <psha> only use case when it's needed to select column from hal is several alternative values for each combobox entry
[08:32:07] <mhaberler> no, didnt see it -pls resend
[08:32:23] <psha> oops
[08:32:25] <psha> it's exim here
[08:32:30] <psha> have not installed postfix :)
[08:34:01] <mhaberler> re column - good point. will try that so I learn it ;-)
[08:34:27] <psha> it seem that there are 3 letters laying around for you :)
[08:34:38] <psha> 24.11, 08.12 and 09.12 :)
[08:35:09] <mhaberler> aha, well xmas time has lots of postal obstipation
[08:36:44] <mhaberler> on a different front, I think I fixed the toolchange abort issue. I'd appreciate if you could look over the diff as sanity check: http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/emc2-dev.git/blobdiff/f4c3cc7fad6525db1ea4dc7973a493edd294a1ce..54525e19b5ea9d777be58efea8ecfa433748f85c:/src/emc/iotask/ioControl.cc
[08:38:23] <mhaberler> if that's till something you remember; works great for me now and I know what the issue was.
[08:38:24] <mhaberler> anyway will fix the combo widget and let you know.
[08:38:26] <mhaberler> what do you think is still needed before a merge request?
[08:39:28] <psha> i think it's not correct
[08:39:43] <psha> it's illegal to set values on input pins i think
[08:40:40] <mhaberler> oh, that one. that is really the handshake thing - need to clear it once read so request is ack'ed. probably should make it an in-out.
[08:41:44] <psha> i see what's needed :) but i don't know how legal is that way of handshaking
[08:42:59] <psha> yes, it's used widely in electronics but here are slightly different rules for input/output connections
[08:43:31] <psha> another issue - is there any constant for 'return 11'?
[08:47:17] <mhaberler> unfortunately, not. It means ''TC complete', but at the same time an RCS_ERROR is signaled which aborts milltask
[08:51:04] <psha> besides theese issues everything is ok
[08:52:00] <psha> but as i already mentioned i'm not confident in toolchanging :)
[08:53:25] <mhaberler> ok, well I guess I'll use this for a while on the real machine; now that I understand how to keep local changes around due to your gentle git training it's not an issue ;-)
[08:58:04] <psha> :)
[09:14:58] <mhaberler> ok, the gladevcp-hal-combobox branch has the property change in, and I actually tested it ;-)
[09:24:20] <mhaberler> and even the wiki page is á jour
[09:25:17] <mhaberler> psha: so, what else is left to do? I think it looks good for a first cut
[09:33:25] <psha> may you merge full combobox change in one patch?
[09:33:30] <psha> i'll pick it shortly
[09:34:02] <psha> i've finaly configured exim to auth on my mail relay :)
[09:34:12] <psha> so now mail won't lie dead on this notebook :)
[10:02:11] <psha> mhaberler: may you merge full combobox change in one patch?
[10:02:15] <psha> i think you'll miss it with ping timeout
[10:02:42] <mhaberler> yeah, I was off. Ok, I will try... it's a research issue for me ;-)
[10:06:28] <mhaberler> relative to master?
[14:09:54] <Dave911> Hi guys... has there been any discussion regarding this phantom wanna be investor? I've been tied up with other things and just saw the email.
[14:35:24] <cradek> I would guess any real responses were sent in private
[14:41:00] <cradek> there's some discussion on the list now, I see
[14:42:18] <Dave911> True ... at least to the phantom.. has something like this occurred before?
[14:43:25] <Dave911> I was wondering if this is looked at as a positive sign by most devs,r a negative, or indifferent..
[14:46:04] <Dave911> I think it is inevitable that as EMC2 improves and matures it will become more and more attractive to the commercial marketplace.
[14:47:16] <cradek> that's probably true
[14:47:56] <Dave911> I wasn't around when Smithy decided to start using EMC2. It seems like that type of thing tends to help - doesn't it?? Or does that also cause issues that I'm not aware of..
[14:49:54] <skunkworks> smithy tried to do some proprietary interfaces.. I think that turned the a lot of the comuinty off. (just what I got from it)
[14:50:03] <skunkworks> community
[14:50:43] <cradek> several companies sell emc-powered machines. So far, it hasn't led to much help for the project. Little things here and there (like sherline hosted some of our web stuff for a while)
[14:52:08] <Dave911> Perhaps Smithy was a bad example.. I wonder how they get by with their GUI also ... I think there are some licensing issues there myself but not necessarily with the EMC2 license but with the tools they used to make the interface..
[14:52:10] <cradek> seems like mesa being interested in making hardware that works well with EMC has done 10x as much for us
[14:52:34] <cradek> the Smithy demo machine I saw at cnc workshop was running AXIS
[14:53:29] <cradek> whether that was just to placate us I can't say
[14:53:54] <SWPadnos> I thought they just added some tabs to AXIS, more or less
[14:54:07] <skunkworks> I thought it was because they didn't have a lathe gui
[14:54:10] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:54:38] <Dave911> They are still using their other interface apparently.. at one point I had an exchange with the women that runs the development?? and she pointed me to the developer and that was as far as I got.. I wonder if that was done to placate also ...
[14:54:44] <SWPadnos> the difference with Anonymous Investor is that the proposal is to make a company that makes CNC controls that happen to run on EMC
[14:54:51] <skunkworks> yes - mesa has really opened things I think.
[14:55:08] <Dave911> That conversation came about when I asked for their screen source code.. :-)
[14:56:07] <SWPadnos> RedHat sells services and some "enterprise" software that runs on Linux, but they still contribute their kernel (and other tool) changes back to the community
[14:57:00] <SWPadnos> the interesting thing about AI is that the resulting company would be controlled by someone who can choose to be very good for the community
[14:57:43] <Dave911> >>happen to run on EMC?? Seems like that is his core goal - to use the EMC2 software to create an industrial service company.
[14:58:12] <SWPadnos> yes - it's a controls company primarily, that happens to run on EMC :
[14:58:14] <SWPadnos> :)
[14:58:44] <Dave911> >>"can choose to be very good for the community" .. or not ??
[14:58:50] <SWPadnos> yes, or not
[14:59:21] <SWPadnos> the thing about the folks that have used EMC so far is that they wanted to get a cheap control and make it "theirs" for as little investment as possible
[15:00:10] <SWPadnos> a company that makes controls for "real" machine shops would have a different clientele, and a different set of requirements to fill, than the general EMC community needs
[15:00:41] <SWPadnos> I think I mentioned recently that it's kind of like Apple. Many customers want fewer choices, not more
[15:01:24] <SWPadnos> so making things simple for the end user can widely expand the potential audience
[15:01:35] <Dave911> OK.. I see your point.. I think. do you mean that EMC2 would be fine if it was just like Fanuc ?? etc...
[15:02:12] <SWPadnos> (which could be something like using a Mesa card and labeling the I/Os a certain way - they could be used for something else, but labels and documentation pointing out *one* way to do it is "easier" for people to grasp)
[15:02:25] <cradek> companies wanting to use EMC has led to improvements available to the community. I've done paid work with results given to everyone.
[15:02:40] <SWPadnos> yep. me too.
[15:02:52] <SWPadnos> (with not as far reaching usefulness :) )
[15:03:00] <archivist> I do know there is a uk person or two helping the chinese to use EMC for a production lathe
[15:03:35] <cradek> what I haven't seen is a company really working on EMC and contributing improvements. I haven't yet seen a company (machine builder) that really understands how to participate in the community, and get their users to participate.
[15:03:59] <SWPadnos> yeah. that's also not what this entity would likely be, IMO
[15:04:13] <Dave911> Cradek: I agree.. and I really wonder why?
[15:04:32] <SWPadnos> commercial end users don't (necessarily) want to "participate in a community", they want to buy something that works, and has service contracts available for when it breaks
[15:04:44] <cradek> Dave911: not much overlap between people who get free software and people who can successfully run a company?
[15:04:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:04:54] <SWPadnos> I resemble that remark :)
[15:04:59] <cradek> me too, big time
[15:05:01] <archivist> I do wonder if we create an association of integrators not funded by anon
[15:05:13] <SWPadnos> that's been discussed as well
[15:05:19] <SWPadnos> it's not as easy as it would seem
[15:05:47] <archivist> we a loose group we cover the globe better I think
[15:06:02] <SWPadnos> sure, it's more a matter of what the list would actually mean
[15:06:09] <SWPadnos> who administers it?
[15:06:16] <SWPadnos> how do you get on (or off) it?
[15:06:21] <Dave911> I agree that commercial end users generally have no interest in the community... but what about machine developers?? I would think they would be all over this ... but they are not.
[15:06:25] <mshaver> * mshaver stumbles into a relevant IRC conversation
[15:06:31] <SWPadnos> what can a customer assume about someone who is on the list?
[15:07:00] <Dave911> Hello Mr. Shaver.. ;-)
[15:07:04] <cradek> uh-oh - matt's here now
[15:07:10] <SWPadnos> Dave911, people who are engineers designing or modifying machines should be interested, people making "run of the mill" machines wouldn't be
[15:07:19] <SWPadnos> I would see it as a time sink, at least at first
[15:07:29] <archivist> end users want to see a posh brochure and an established company so they can see a future of support
[15:08:06] <SWPadnos> the best way to make money in a business is to spend as little time and money as possible on something that you sell
[15:08:25] <SWPadnos> (all else being equal, of course, like robustness and suitability for the customers purpose)
[15:08:53] <Dave911> I can tell you it is definitely a time sink at first - but well worth the effort... :-)
[15:08:58] <SWPadnos> so if you have to spend a lot of time "customizing" something, or thinking about how to go about it, that's a loss (assuming that you can't charge for your time)
[15:09:00] <mshaver> hey! are you talking about making some sort of "approved EMC integrators" list?
[15:09:02] <SWPadnos> heh, I agree
[15:09:12] <SWPadnos> choir, meet the preacher :)
[15:09:20] <Dave911> :-)
[15:09:24] <SWPadnos> mshaver, that's one tangent we've been talking about
[15:09:30] <SWPadnos> (again)
[15:10:12] <Dave911> >>so if you have to spend a lot of time "customizing" something ..... I can relate.
[15:10:57] <Dave911> On the otherhand that time spent learning is an investment just like investing in tool... that is the way I look at it. No investment - no tool for future work.
[15:11:04] <cradek> SWPadnos: no - it's only a loss if your end result is worthless AND you can't charge for the time
[15:11:39] <SWPadnos> relative loss - if you spent less time on it and charged the same amount, you made more money
[15:11:53] <SWPadnos> (effectively, since you can spend the other time on other things)
[15:11:55] <mshaver> I have a very hard time trying to convince my client: 1. That there's value in community participation 2. That modular control components that support rapid customization is a worthwhile goal.
[15:12:07] <cradek> (that's a weird definition of loss IMO)
[15:12:20] <SWPadnos> lost time, time == money, lost money :)
[15:12:26] <SWPadnos> in business anyway
[15:12:47] <archivist> mshaver, more community = more people to keep the thing running and upgraded later
[15:13:03] <Dave911> Why is that Matt? Too much investment on their part time wise - hence too expensive?
[15:13:34] <cradek> mshaver: the very most cynical way to see it is that community participation offloads support calls - I don't see why they don't even see that.
[15:13:41] <SWPadnos> it makes sense that a producer of machines doesn't want a modular customizable system. you only need to customize when you design a new model
[15:13:54] <SWPadnos> otherwise it's just copies of the existing model
[15:14:21] <SWPadnos> so you make a design that works, using the least design resources, balanced with the lowest production cost
[15:14:44] <Dave911> But what about future enhancements?
[15:14:52] <mshaver> Well, as to the community issue, they seem to want something that they can "own" and exclude others from using. This is said to be a "competitive advantage" and to promote "differentiation" which is thought to be a good thing in and of itself.
[15:15:08] <SWPadnos> once you have a mill and a lathe setup, you can more or less make as many mills and lathes as you want with zero or almost zero design time
[15:15:56] <cradek> mshaver: I can see that approach - too bad you can't really use free software then
[15:16:03] <SWPadnos> (ie, you fire mshaver and continue to produce machines :) )
[15:16:08] <mshaver> SWPadnos: True, but "runs" are in the 10s quantity before a change.
[15:16:16] <SWPadnos> heh. that's not ideal
[15:16:20] <cradek> no...
[15:16:58] <SWPadnos> there's a difference between a company that makes machines and one that makes controls though
[15:17:20] <SWPadnos> controls *do* need to be flexible and modular, because they may be used on an unknown variety of machines
[15:17:25] <mshaver> Bridgeport made the BOSS series in the low hundreds...
[15:17:43] <SWPadnos> each BOSS, or all of them?
[15:18:12] <mshaver> SWPadnos: My argument is to make the control it's own product
[15:18:29] <SWPadnos> yep, that sounds like what AnonInv wants to do :)
[15:19:17] <mshaver> I don't know for sure, but I'd guess they made a couple hundred of each model -based on an observation of their serial numbers
[15:19:50] <mshaver> Who is AnonInv?
[15:19:51] <SWPadnos> interesting. I'd expect it to be much higher
[15:19:57] <skunkworks> I can see anyone retrofitting something other than a hobby machine needing some support for integration. I could not imagine joe machine shop owner using an emc 'kit' without support. (unless you are stuart)
[15:20:00] <Dave911> Mshaver: You mean in the 10's like every ten?? I thought Smithy's volume was much higher than that.
[15:20:04] <SWPadnos> Anonymous Investor - sent an email to the user list a few days ago
[15:20:31] <skunkworks> (or they are really motovated)
[15:21:17] <skunkworks> * skunkworks cannot believe how low his ladder is getting
[15:21:21] <skunkworks> *long
[15:22:21] <Dave911> Stuart is clearly the exception to the rule..
[15:23:26] <SWPadnos> there are whole classes of "computer controlled machine" users who really couldn't care less what they get, they just want to call someone and buy the thing which will make that part of their business work
[15:23:52] <SWPadnos> think about all the engraving and sign-making shops, not just people making mechanical parts
[15:24:18] <mshaver> Dave911: There are around 50 machines that use the control I designed in the field - I base this on my sales of a circuit board that is used one/machine.
[15:24:35] <archivist> and the 30 year old window frame welding machines that need upgrading
[15:25:57] <Dave911> If I was selling little mills - I would use EMC2 openly and use that as a selling point. Most experienced users that I run into hate proprietary software, and I mean hate not dislike.
[15:26:11] <mshaver> AFAIK, Tormach orders machines in lots of 15 pieces (I think) - my wild guess is that they might have 200 (?) in the field...
[15:26:28] <Dave911> I agree. Most end users want to buy an appliance. Plug it in and use it.
[15:27:23] <mshaver> Sherline sells (I think) about 200 CNC systems/year
[15:27:33] <SWPadnos> Dave911, "free upgrades for life" is something people understand :)
[15:27:57] <Dave911> And they want a support phone line so they can call when things burp.
[15:28:38] <Dave911> SWPadnos: Yes, unlike Microsoft Windows 7 upgrades .. :-(
[15:28:38] <SWPadnos> I thought about emailing AI myself. I just wish I had the time to make it really work
[15:28:50] <archivist> I think the uk bunch are selling 30-60 mills per year
[15:29:02] <SWPadnos> (I have thought about doing a business just as described, but haven't gotten around to it)
[15:29:22] <SWPadnos> I don't know what the sales of routers are, they're probably higher than mills and lathes
[15:29:31] <mshaver> archivist: Stevenson (Arc Eurotrade)?
[15:29:57] <archivist> yup
[15:30:06] <Dave911> To do it right will take a team of people and it will be more than two or three.
[15:30:12] <archivist> he asks me the odd question
[15:30:57] <mshaver> odd question?
[15:31:30] <archivist> uk ism one or two questions
[15:32:02] <archivist> he struggling to set up screw cutting properly at the moment
[15:32:25] <mshaver> ah! He needs EMC :)
[15:32:41] <archivist> he is using emc!
[15:32:59] <mshaver> We have threading going on the Sieg KC6 no problem!
[15:33:07] <archivist> but he gets paid to do it I dont... so I let him struggle a bit
[15:33:24] <cradek> archivist: in that case maybe you should make an arrangement
[15:33:50] <archivist> when I last spoke he was going to cantact me
[15:34:03] <mshaver> actually, controlling the tool post is the hard bit
[15:35:55] <skunkworks> that right there is one issue now. Companies using emc - charging customers for support but asking the unpaid developers/users for help. :)
[15:36:40] <archivist> yup that does urk me a bit in #mysql too
[15:37:25] <archivist> if I spots them I tend to be harder on them :)
[15:37:26] <skunkworks> then again - I at some point might make money with the K&T - and I ask a lot of questions.
[15:37:30] <cradek> sometimes I help for free - sometimes not - why be mad about it? nobody forces you to work for free.
[15:38:11] <skunkworks> I guess you could just say - I will help - but I will require compinsation.
[15:38:21] <archivist> I think helping for free is part of the give back to community
[15:40:04] <mshaver> * mshaver is reading the e-mail on the user's list - (ಠ_ಠ)
[15:40:20] <skunkworks> I cannot believe more people don't use emc :)
[15:40:26] <Dave911> Mach3's main support is from the community also ...
[15:40:34] <SWPadnos> shhh. don't tell anyone
[15:40:42] <skunkworks> heh
[15:40:51] <mshaver> And they're happy about it!!!
[15:41:31] <archivist> collect £$ and get someoneels/mug to do the work
[15:41:50] <skunkworks> now now - they are barely scraping by.
[15:41:55] <skunkworks> ;)
[15:44:31] <skunkworks> I cannot beleive how reletively easy the K&T has come together! that is almost 96 i/o worth plus 4 axis
[15:45:45] <SWPadnos> thatsa lotta IO
[15:46:13] <Dave911> Mshaver: >>And they're happy about it!!! You mean the Mach3 users?
[15:46:21] <mshaver> yep!
[15:46:31] <SWPadnos> and the vendor(s), I imagine :)
[15:46:34] <mshaver> They are so grateful!
[15:47:02] <mshaver> They are constantly thanking Art for his gift to them.
[15:47:15] <Dave911> I think in general they are. The advanced users are getting weary though.. Some vendors are looking for other solutions... and some have found them ;-)
[15:48:07] <Dave911> Mshaver: You are familiar with Lemmings right?? ;-)
[15:48:17] <mshaver> I like Art and Brian - they're a fun bunch! But their users I don't get sometimes...
[15:48:50] <SWPadnos> Dave911, fun game!
[15:49:15] <Dave911> I agree... some psychologist should study that group..
[15:51:09] <Dave911> Seriously... there is something going on there that I simply don't understand. "Group Think" kind of stuff.
[15:52:03] <SWPadnos> two things (at least): 1) shiny blinky blingy interface; 2) assumed familiarity because it's Windows, like all the other software they use
[15:52:55] <SWPadnos> that, and the website has screenshots
[15:54:19] <archivist> linux is a big step for some
[15:54:48] <SWPadnos> and a huge perceived step
[15:55:04] <SWPadnos> or a perceived huge step
[15:55:13] <Dave911> I think a lot of the user dedication to Mach3 pretty much defies logic a lot of the time.
[15:55:31] <SWPadnos> it probably works fine for most people most of the time
[15:56:29] <Dave911> I agree .. perceived. But lets face it.. computers scare the hell out of many people... I get calls all of the time from panic stricken relatives and friends.. You would think someone had drained their bank account.
[15:56:52] <SWPadnos> yes. or is about to :)
[16:02:29] <Dave911> bbl
[16:33:19] <psha> mhaberler: combobox is fune
[16:33:20] <psha> fine
[16:33:45] <mhaberler> puh.. learning to cleanup my own mess..
[16:34:08] <psha> there are two 'dirty' places but i'll clean them myself :)
[16:34:18] <psha> first there is whitespace after 'else:'
[16:34:22] <psha> and second - license header
[16:34:25] <psha> it's already there
[16:34:29] <mhaberler> you mean the dash/underscore translation
[16:34:41] <psha> in hal_updatre
[16:34:42] <psha> update
[16:34:49] <mhaberler> uh.
[16:35:11] <mhaberler> as they say "left as an exercise to the reader" ;--)
[16:35:36] <psha> btw you again write nestd code wth dups :) in hal update it's better to retrieve value in if/else and then set it once
[16:35:53] <psha> + self.hal_pin_f.set(float(model[index][self.column]))
[16:35:53] <psha> + self.hal_pin_s.set(int(model[index][self.column]))
[16:36:21] <mhaberler> I told you - I'm an MBA ;-)
[16:36:24] <psha> :)
[16:40:26] <psha> take a look at void/gladevcp-combobox
[16:40:36] <psha> it's your patch picked on top of gladevcp branch
[16:40:41] <psha> with small cleanup in hal_update
[16:41:52] <mhaberler> your're really going after cleanup.. great!
[16:42:15] <psha> is it still working? )
[16:42:32] <psha> i usually mess things during picking :)
[16:58:44] <skunkworks> hello
[16:59:08] <skunkworks> how come the_wrench doesn't ask me to ask? ;)
[17:01:05] <psha> it has instructions to attack only on #emc channel :)
[17:01:31] <psha> but if you wish...
[17:01:42] <psha> hello skunkworks, you have a question?
[17:01:59] <archivist> good bot :)
[17:02:59] <archivist> skunkworks, it catches the noob who says hello and gets no reply and leaves irc
[17:14:40] <ries__> ries__ is now known as ries
[19:39:25] <ries__> ries__ is now known as ries
[20:07:52] <ries__> ries__ is now known as ries