#emc-devel | Logs for 2010-09-15

[00:11:49] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[13:40:56] <moopy> hello mr joni???
[13:42:36] <moop> hello mr joni???
[13:42:52] <moop> hang on what?
[14:26:05] <alex_joni> moop: hang on for me to start the logger
[20:11:07] <andypugh> texlive is huge, is it strictly necessary?
[20:12:38] <jepler> latex is part of the pdf doc building toolchain, so some texlive packages are needed. whether what is in build-dep is minimal, I don't know.
[20:13:37] <andypugh> But if I don't intend making PDF docs on this machine (Which only has an 8GB SSD you see)
[20:13:43] <jepler> if you can determine that the build-depends are unnecessarily broad then they can be reduced
[20:14:27] <jepler> if you aren't building emc2 debian packages and don't configure with --enable-build-documentation then you don't need it.
[20:21:12] <andypugh> I still seem to have 3GB free, so I will see how it goes
[20:22:32] <andypugh> apt-get reckons I can free 650MB by removing it.
[20:52:03] <skunkworks> so - that fixed it for stuart?
[21:00:33] <skunkworks> heh - when I didn't have the scaling right - jogging was interesting. probably similar. It could not keep up with commanded so there was a delay when stopping the jog as the axis cought up.
[21:09:24] <cradek> none of our drivers have scale that works how the docs say
[21:09:47] <cradek> ppmc and mesa are both on their own - most of the rest match each other but not the docs
[21:09:53] <cradek> what a swirl
[21:10:07] <skunkworks> heh
[21:11:01] <skunkworks> so - it is correct to use (units/sec)/.9 for mesa - right?
[21:11:19] <skunkworks> where max feedrate is at 9v out.
[21:11:32] <skunkworks> it has to be - it works ;)
[22:54:38] <Dave911> Is Mach3 on life support?.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/121981 Finally, Brian has admitted, the mystical Rev 4 version of Mach3 that "fixes everything" has been put on indefinite hold.. Now Brian is talking about charging for support... I ask.. what support? He is on the email list about once every other day.. His "feel good" group of supporters are...
[22:54:40] <Dave911> ...trying to urge him onward but it sounds like he is in real trouble.. I suspect that he still owes a bunch of money to Art. If you developers hadn't made EMC2 work so well.. perhaps he would be better off.. ;-) Yeah.. I know.. now I have to go wash my mouth out with soap.. :-)
[22:55:32] <morficmobile> interesting
[22:59:10] <cradek> if you only have one person in the world who has the ability to fix bugs or add features, it seems like you're doomed
[22:59:30] <cradek> the only way out is to charge enough to hire people on
[23:00:09] <cradek> if you can't have constant growth (and you CAN'T) you can't have constant income with their existing model
[23:02:54] <cradek> One thing for damn certian, there isn't another piece of software on earth ... where you can get direct support from the programmer (usually within
[23:02:57] <cradek> a few hours or less) and one-on-one support when it's needed.
[23:03:01] <cradek> ^ ha
[23:06:41] <andypugh> What's the structure there? (ie Who are Art and Brian?)
[23:06:54] <Dave911> I agree.. a CNC controller is a very complex piece of software... I think Art realized that along the way someplace also ... and he knew that he had to get rid of Mach3 at some point. Brian had the opportunity to add people early on but could never allow anyone into the core of the software. I think he was deathly afraid of someone stealing the code.. seriously.. So many core...
[23:06:56] <Dave911> ...issues were never fixed. Now it sounds like he is in a slide..
[23:07:00] <cradek> art used to be the sole developer - now art quit and brian is the sole developer
[23:07:07] <Jymmm> andypugh: Art is the original dev of Mach, Brain bought it
[23:08:01] <Dave911> Brian is buying out Art ... But Art still owns the rights to the LPT driver.
[23:08:10] <Jymmm> lol
[23:08:30] <Jymmm> sneaky bastard
[23:08:31] <Dave911> Art is still writing software ...
[23:08:36] <cradek> sometimes it's hard to decide between 'lol' and 'wtf'
[23:08:59] <cradek> smart guy to sell off the albatross and move on to fun stuff
[23:09:17] <Dave911> http://gearotic.com/
[23:09:34] <andypugh> The point comes with software when it can become something of a millstone. I guess even if none of the current EMC2 devs want to drop out, at least knowing that they could without "abandoning" the user base must be something of a comfort.
[23:09:38] <Dave911> Art is a smart guy .. no doubt ..
[23:10:24] <cradek> I can't take seriously any web page containing the "word" hobbiest
[23:10:55] <andypugh> I noticed that in the forum posts too. Perhaps it is a Mach meme?
[23:12:42] <cradek> no idea
[23:12:46] <andypugh> I hope they get themselves sorted out, it's not good to see a project fail. And I doubt we really want to be flooded with Windows-only CNC Hobbiests.
[23:13:09] <Jymmm> TCNC
[23:13:17] <cradek> they aren't faced with failing outright, they are faced with fading slowly
[23:13:43] <cradek> well unless microsoft screws them in a future windows release - that's the way they can fail outright
[23:13:55] <Dave911> Right ..
[23:13:59] <andypugh> <a href="http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/TCNC">TCNC</a>
[23:14:06] <andypugh> ?
[23:14:12] <Jymmm> andypugh: TurboCNC
[23:14:24] <andypugh> :-) I guessed
[23:14:25] <Jymmm> http://www.dakeng.com/turbo.html
[23:15:13] <Jymmm> TCNC + VESA == Awesomeness
[23:16:19] <andypugh> Is EMC2 pretty much the only game in town for Free servo control?
[23:16:22] <Jymmm> Heh, I think I just saw my Pascal book around here a few months ago
[23:18:21] <morficmobile> what did opencnc turn into, the SF project? did it turn into what mdsi calls opencnc? with "" around open, only thing open there is your wallet, feature by feature
[23:20:26] <Jymmm> java based
[23:20:32] <Jymmm> code commited 1149 days ago
[23:21:07] <Jymmm> Simulator
[23:21:49] <Jymmm> no files
[23:22:28] <Jymmm> Is Mariss a software guy at all?
[23:22:44] <Jymmm> I wonder if he would "buy mach out"
[23:24:33] <andypugh> The TurboCNC guide to CNC conversions includes a link to EMC2. That seems jolly even-handed.
[23:24:55] <Jymmm> Oh, btw... No disrespect intended in the mentioning of TCNC. I'm just an MS-DOS guy, and like anything worthwhile that runs on dos
[23:25:51] <Jymmm> wolfenstein, doom, tcnc, directaccess, procomm, etc
[23:27:41] <Dave911> No .. I don't think that Mariss is a software guy in that sense.. Art was messing around with a new planner for a future CNC product some time ago ... I would not be surprised if he got back into the CNC software biz if Brian can't make it work... and since he still owns the LPT port driver ....
[23:27:44] <andypugh> I am trying to remeber how I ended up with EMC2 rather than any of the other options. I think it was just the first one I found, oddly enough. Or perhaps I knew of it via Robin Szemeti.
[23:29:07] <Jymmm> Dave911: Maybe Brian never looked at Mach from a business model, and only from a project based one.
[23:31:13] <Dave911> No.. Brian put a lot of thought into Mach3 and it's future.... and then he made some bad decisions... as simple as that.
[23:31:33] <Jymmm> bad decisions?
[23:31:51] <Dave911> yes .. really bad decisions..
[23:31:57] <Jymmm> such as?
[23:32:23] <Dave911> For instance... no one can do it was well as I can.... I can't trust anyone with the source code - not even small snippets of it .. etc
[23:33:02] <Dave911> It is really more of a control issue than anything else for Brian ...
[23:33:21] <Jymmm> Well, that's the closed source philosaphy.
[23:33:50] <Dave911> Pretty common for many small biz owners ... I have to do it myself ... no one will do it as well as I do etc..
[23:34:01] <Dave911> A great formula for zero growth
[23:35:14] <Jymmm> Well if brian is a one-man band, what else is he going to do? If he can't afford to pay another competent dev
[23:36:14] <Dave911> During a long stretch of time.. he had plenty of cash to hire more people ... however now I suspect that has changed and his revenue stream is shrinking ..
[23:36:19] <morficmobile> "if someone steals it, i lose everything", and not realizing this kind of protectiveness will cause the very same thing you want to avoid.
[23:36:36] <Dave911> Yes ...
[23:38:13] <morficmobile> he could have hired people for parts of it that people requested, UI stuff, heck anything non RT he should have "let go", and who knows how this would have changed
[23:39:05] <morficmobile> all he needs is a VCS to not lose anything, ever
[23:39:22] <andypugh> There's a lot to be said for being a wage-slave, isn't there?
[23:39:57] <Dave911> That is one of the issues with Mach3.. the only truly real time component is the LPT port driver..
[23:40:11] <Dave911> And Brian didn't buy that part.
[23:40:35] <andypugh> Is that also the only supported interface?
[23:41:12] <Dave911> What do you mean by supported? ;-)
[23:41:37] <Dave911> There is a USB interface to a couple of third party devices ..
[23:41:38] <andypugh> Can you use PCI or modbus with Mach?
[23:42:46] <Dave911> PCI with a Galil card.. but that is really supported by a couple of users, not really by Brian.. Modbus works but not nearly as well as EMC2.. There is no ladder logic. There is an attempt at ladder logic but it is severely broken.
[23:42:50] <andypugh> Do the Pico PPMC cards work with it, even?
[23:42:59] <Dave911> No ..
[23:44:32] <andypugh> Anyway, goodnight chaps. I am thinking that EMC2 was definitely the right choice for me, from what I have heard.
[23:44:32] <skunkworks> there was talk of mesa support - but so far - nothing
[23:44:39] <Dave911> The vast majority of Mach3 users - use the LPT driver which is actually pretty good. But the VB like scripting language is broken in many ways..
[23:45:00] <andypugh> That sounds very VB-like :-)
[23:45:30] <Dave911> I think that died .. probably when the dev realized that he needed some things internally fixed in Mach3 to make that work ... but Brian would not fix them or release the source so the dev could do it .. hence that project died..
[23:45:48] <Dave911> That story has been played out many times ..
[23:46:00] <andypugh> (I use VB an awful lot, and I like it, but it is vaguely broken. Arguably C is more broken though)
[23:46:03] <skunkworks> I hug emc every day.
[23:46:15] <Dave911> Likewise .. :-)
[23:46:51] <Dave911> bbl