#emc-devel | Logs for 2010-07-03

[00:14:04] <KimK> andypugh: I never heard of them before, thanks. I don't like them already (just from their web page) because they use those hidden links to their screenshots. Why not have it so you can right-click the screenshot "open in new tab"? Annoyed me enough to tease out one of their obfuscated links: http://www.avl.com/wo/webobsession.servlet.go/encoded/YXBwPWJjbXMmcGFnZT12aWV3Jm1hc2s9ZG93bmxvYWQmbm9kZWlkPTQwMDA2MzYwMSZub2VuY29k_0AZT1KUEcmY2FjaGVidXN0ZXI9.jpg127
[00:14:04] <KimK> 8115037469
[00:14:09] <KimK> Bah
[00:14:14] <KimK> http://www.avl.com/wo/webobsession.servlet.go/encoded/YXBwPWJjbXMmcGFnZT12aWV3Jm1hc2s9ZG93bmxvYWQmbm9kZWlkPTQwMDA2MzYwMSZub2VuY29k_0AZT1KUEcmY2FjaGVidXN0ZXI9.jpg1278115037469
[00:15:34] <KimK> I'm sure the DRM police will be stopping by any moment now. BTW, andy, what's "alpha" (gauge lower left of photo center)
[00:16:51] <andypugh> Alpha is what we call the pedal position.
[00:17:08] <KimK> Ah, OK, thanks.
[00:17:41] <andypugh> Basically there are only two controls, dyno current and pedal position, but you can use them to control to different things.
[00:18:46] <andypugh> ie you can close the dyno loop on dyno speed or dyno torque and the pedal loop on alpha, indicated torque, fuel pressure, power......
[01:51:22] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[02:52:09] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * r06a279c50077 10/src/hal/drivers/hal_ppmc.c: make error message more informative
[03:35:08] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * ref766804c070 10/configs/ppmc/ppmc.ini: use Axis GUI
[03:35:10] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * r444a3e07bd0b 10/configs/univpwm/univpwm_io.hal: update for pendant
[03:35:11] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * r31f9b8b8584c 10/configs/univstep/univstep.ini: update to Axis GUI
[03:35:12] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * ra49f54ba2f93 10/configs/univpwm/univpwm.ini: update to Axis GUI and add some uptions
[03:45:18] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * rb20474ff129d 10/configs/univpwm/pendant.hal: add pendant file
[03:46:26] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * r180c5ce12e10 10/configs/univpwm/spindle.hal: add spindle speed hal file
[03:47:16] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * rd5a61e7d2ed8 10/configs/univpwm/spindle.xml: add spindle display xml file
[14:37:56] <jepler-> jepler- is now known as jepler
[14:57:43] <andypugh> I think G76 might be broken in Master.
[14:58:27] <andypugh> I am getting some good passes (2 or 3) then a few full-speed passes, then a couple of good ones...
[14:59:12] <andypugh> Looking in Halscope the return to sensible passes coincides with an encoder reset / index pulse.
[15:00:39] <andypugh> The same Halscope, same G-code, same material has just done it right first time in 2.4.1. In that Halscope you can see the index-enable followed by an encoder reset at the beginning of every pass. That behaviour was not seen in 2.5~pre
[15:01:02] <cradek> what is your encoder hooked to?
[15:01:18] <andypugh> A hostmot counter
[15:01:53] <cradek> can you scope index-enable and encoder counts and encoder position
[15:02:07] <andypugh> Halscope?
[15:02:11] <cradek> I've seen this behavior when ppmc encoders were broken and would reset index-enable without resetting their count/position
[15:02:14] <cradek> yes
[15:02:30] <andypugh> OK, need to switch computers.
[15:02:41] <cradek> I cut several threads on 2.4.1/hostmot2 at cnc workshop
[15:02:59] <cradek> I didn't see the problem - not sure what firmware I was using - I didn't check
[15:07:13] <andypugh_garage> How o I get a screen cap/
[15:07:30] <SWPadnos> printscreen
[15:07:36] <andypugh_garage> Please forgive typing ghastly metal eybord
[15:07:44] <SWPadnos> or alt-printscreen for just the current window
[15:07:55] <andypugh_garage> any other way?
[15:08:03] <cradek> it's on the menu
[15:10:01] <andypugh_garage> thanks. ghastly swarf-proo kb has no prntsc
[15:11:49] <cradek> bbl after shower/breakfast (is it morning already?)
[15:14:35] <andypugh_garage> 2.4.1 http://imagebin.ca/view/B9LChyu.html
[15:20:09] <andypugh_garage> 2.5~pre http://imagebin.ca/view/oxXHjuf.html
[15:20:42] <andypugh_garage> All I have done between the two is change emc version
[15:22:19] <andypugh_garage> it looks like index-enable is being driven differently. It could be an illusion
[15:31:19] <jepler> that 2.5 trace is AFU
[15:36:03] <jepler> please test at the tip of v2.4_branch; if the problem is there as well I will hold 2.4.2 until this is sorted out.
[15:36:20] <cradek> http://imagebin.ca/view/B9LChyu.html looks right to me
[15:36:42] <cradek> http://imagebin.ca/view/oxXHjuf.html looks wrong
[15:37:04] <cradek> what is gpio.004.in?
[15:37:58] <cradek> please verify which version is the Screenshot -1
[15:41:42] <andypugh_garage> screenshot 1 is a fresh git pull of the 2.4.1 branch
[15:41:51] <cradek> on Screenshot -1, I see above the 10 button a count reset without index, but above 11 an index without count reset
[15:42:05] <andypugh_garage> gpio-4 is the index pulse into the 7i43
[15:42:54] <cradek> are you using the same config and same firmwares?
[15:43:18] <jepler> Hold on. I want to be sure what version of emc we're talking about. There's no such thing as "the 2.4.1 branch". Is it v2.4.1, or is it v2.4_branch? What does "git describe" print in the source directory for the thing you're saying is "2.4"?
[15:43:22] <andypugh_garage> yes, all else (supposedly) the exact same
[15:43:40] <andypugh_garage> let me check
[15:44:45] <andypugh_garage> not working is v2.4.1-358-g6d6b94a
[15:45:32] <andypugh_garage> working is v2.4.1
[15:46:26] <jepler> commit 6d6b94a is not one from linuxcnc.org. Do you deliberately have some of your own modifications there?
[15:46:49] <andypugh_garage> yes
[15:47:16] <andypugh_garage> including a revert of the last G76 patch
[15:47:28] <cradek> can you find a linuxcnc commit that shows the problem
[15:48:10] <andypugh_garage> I haven't tried.
[15:48:13] <jepler> if you have no uncommitted changes, then 'git checkout origin/master' to get source that exactly matches linuxcnc. 'git checkout master' to get back to the master branch which is presumably where you have your committed changes.
[15:48:27] <andypugh_garage> OK
[15:49:19] <andypugh_garage> Can I finish this component first? switching versions mid-part seems rash
[15:49:35] <cradek> I am puzzled by: "screenshot 1 is a fresh git pull of the 2.4.1 branch" vs. "working is v2.4.1"
[15:50:07] <cradek> I have no idea what versions you are comparing and what code you are running that the shows bad behavior
[15:50:21] <andypugh_garage> That is because I am puzzled by alost everything to do with version control
[15:50:32] <cradek> sure, when you have time to nail it down, let us know
[15:51:05] <andypugh_garage> the first screenshot was a freshly downloaded and compiled 2.4.1
[15:51:27] <andypugh_garage> that worked fine made a nice thread
[15:51:27] <cradek> first is this one? http://imagebin.ca/view/B9LChyu.html
[15:51:47] <andypugh_garage> yes
[15:51:48] <cradek> I agree it looks right
[15:52:07] <jepler> then the confusion is that the page >>
[15:52:09] <jepler> argh
[15:52:10] <jepler> >>
[15:52:17] <jepler> http://imagebin.ca/view/oxXHjuf.html says "Screenshot-HAL Oscilloscope-1.png"
[15:52:30] <cradek> right we need to figure out what code causes http://imagebin.ca/view/oxXHjuf.html
[15:52:46] <andypugh_garage> The second screenshot was whatever state I left my dev version in last time I got bored
[15:53:26] <jepler> meanwhile I'll test sim/lathe on the tip of origin/master and origin/v2.4_branch to see if I can observe a problem (but I'm sort of suspecting that whatever's going on is in the mesa driver)
[15:53:49] <andypugh_garage> Ah. I hadn't even looked at the screenshot file names
[15:54:07] <cradek> andypugh_garage: you said you reverted a g76 patch. I also don't know what that means.
[15:54:49] <andypugh_garage> You made left-hand threads work since the last time I did any threading
[15:55:31] <andypugh_garage> So I reverted that to see if it was that
[15:56:08] <jepler> so you reverted 57c8a38 Fix threading and tapping with spindle turning backward (M4)
[15:56:11] <cradek> did you revert it with git or manually?
[15:56:12] <andypugh_garage> I am going to have to stop beore I go literallyn msad with this keyboard
[15:56:47] <andypugh_garage> git revert <long stringofhex>
[15:57:13] <andypugh_garage> talk later. get on withb your day
[15:57:37] <jepler> is your servo thread really 10ms?
[15:58:19] <cradek> bbl
[16:02:43] <jepler> I get an OK result with the tip of master: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/2.5pre-simlathe-100hz-threading.png
[16:03:16] <jepler> so all I know is that my setup is different enough from andy's
[16:46:19] <CIA-2> EMC: 03jmelson 07master * rcd2aaa9ac182 10/src/hal/drivers/hal_ppmc.c: remove unneccessary buf declaration
[16:46:36] <cradek> wonder if he intends that these changes go into 2.4
[16:54:26] <jepler> At least some of them, I think
[16:55:00] <jepler> 06a279c for instance
[16:55:30] <cradek> true
[16:56:21] <jepler> They all look fairly safe
[16:56:28] <jepler> I'll figure out what makes sense and cherry-pick them back
[16:57:30] <jepler> the android emulator emulates a physical keyboard
[16:57:37] <jepler> Unfortunately the key legends don't match what the keys do
[16:58:03] <jepler> E.g., it shows that less than is on H with the ALT modifier, but that actually produces [
[16:58:11] <jepler> Which is shown as being on the F key with ALT modifier
[19:04:10] <andypugh> hi chaps.
[19:04:28] <andypugh> git checkout master says "you are already on master"
[19:05:22] <andypugh> git describe says "v2.4.1-358-g6d6b94a"
[19:14:10] <jepler> 'git checkout origin/master'
[19:14:13] <jepler> different than 'git checkout master'
[19:14:50] <andypugh> Ah, I thought that was an either-or !
[19:15:25] <andypugh> And perhaps this is the problem?
[19:15:26] <andypugh> fatal: Entry 'src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hm2_7i43.c' not uptodate. Cannot merge.
[19:15:44] <andypugh> (Though I doubt it)
[19:16:09] <jepler> that indicates you have non-commited edits to that fi
[19:16:10] <jepler> le
[19:16:30] <jepler> commit them with 'git commit' or get rid of them with 'git checkout src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hm2_7i43.c'
[19:16:54] <andypugh> I think I tried that checkout the other day.
[19:18:23] <andypugh> Does v2.4.1-353-gc27d6ca
[19:18:23] <andypugh> look like a proper version, written by grown-ups?
[19:19:08] <jepler> yes.
[19:23:46] <andypugh> OK, I guess this is something I can't check through SSH
[19:23:52] <andypugh> Back shortly
[19:24:03] <cradek> sweet, probing when rotated works great
[19:24:52] <cradek> I was boring a hole that was split along X, so it was better to probe it while rotated 45
[19:25:26] <cradek> jepler: in other news, I think I contributed to the failure of the spindle bearing by mounting it in a too-small hole
[19:25:38] <cradek> the reason was the spindle is not remotely round - it is 7-sided
[19:25:55] <cradek> I measured it with a micrometer and then bored a round hole to match that measurement!
[19:26:03] <jthornton> nice for probing not nice for bearing failures
[19:26:21] <cradek> assuming it's round, that works great! if it's 7-sided, not so much
[19:26:35] <cradek> jthornton: fixed already - I got it apart without destroying it and pressed in a new bearing
[19:27:18] <cradek> I really wonder how he turned it 7-sided
[19:27:26] <jepler> cradek: 7-sided?
[19:27:31] <jepler> bizarre
[19:27:56] <cradek> yep, evenly spaced, like it was on purpose
[19:28:15] <cradek> I don't have a good way of measuring the deviation, but I'm pretty sure I can even feel it
[19:29:40] <cradek> now I have to fix the motor or find a new one
[19:30:59] <Jymmm> cradek: Got a DTI ?
[19:32:00] <cradek> of course
[19:32:20] <cradek> I guess I could mount it in the lathe and rotate it, duh
[19:32:32] <Jymmm> cradek: that's what I was thinking
[19:32:33] <cradek> I thought I'd need a 3 point measuring system, but 1 works too
[19:33:23] <Jymmm> * Jymmm strongly believes in the KISS method =)
[19:33:51] <cradek> yep I did that - I bored the hole oversize until it fit :-)
[19:35:28] <Jymmm> heh, if it doesn't fit, you didn't use enough explosives!
[19:35:33] <andypugh> cradek: one of those curve heptagons like the british 50p piece? (Constant diameter, non-constant radius)
[19:35:56] <cradek> yes I suspect that's the shape
[19:36:04] <cradek> centerless grinding can easily cause that
[19:38:53] <andypugh> http://www.imagebin.ca/view/CtealI.html
[19:39:05] <andypugh> Same problem with the latest master.
[19:39:48] <andypugh> Might well be Hostmot, the index-enable lines are not going high for long enough to register in the servo thread.
[19:40:19] <andypugh> But I am surprised that G76 carries on without an encoder reset.
[19:41:06] <andypugh> I might add a base thread to get a better halscope.
[19:41:43] <cradek> if you know a good and bad revision, you can use git bisect to narrow it down to one change
[19:45:06] <andypugh> (whoo-hoo 1/2" sch 80 pipe has a near-as-makes-no-odds 14mm bore)
[19:46:25] <andypugh> I don't know when I last threaded.
[19:46:32] <jepler> we do know a good revision -- v2.4.1. git bisect start; git bisect bad origin/master; git bisect good v2.4.1
[19:46:59] <andypugh> Just like that?
[19:47:07] <jepler> then git will check out a commit that is between those two in history. build, test, and depending on the result: git bisect good OR git bisect bad
[19:47:22] <andypugh> OK.
[19:47:29] <andypugh> I might be some time.
[19:47:34] <jepler> yes, it's not at all instant
[19:48:16] <jepler> but it will probably be less than 10 steps to test
[19:48:25] <andypugh> atal: ref HEAD is not a symbolic ref
[19:48:31] <andypugh> (F)
[19:50:10] <jepler> on which step?
[19:50:29] <andypugh> I only typed the "git bisect start"
[19:51:03] <jepler> try doing a 'git checkout master' first
[19:51:33] <jepler> looks like it might be a bug in git circa 2008 that they've fixed since then: http://lists-archives.org/git/645686-git-bisect-start-on-a-tag-revision-fails.html
[19:51:38] <jepler> git checkout master; git bisect start; ...
[19:52:13] <andypugh> is "won't bisect on seeked tree" bad? It is saying 176 revisions left to test.
[19:53:27] <jepler> git bisect reset; git checkout master; git bisect start; ...
[19:53:32] <jepler> stop at the first one that gives you an error
[19:53:36] <jepler> and tell me the error
[19:54:05] <jepler> it looks like mmmmaybe the first 'git bisect start' that complained about HEAD left you in a funky state but I'm not sure
[19:55:30] <andypugh> It looks like it was working before, actually. (Same node, same number to sort through)
[19:55:46] <andypugh> make clean, or just make?
[19:56:11] <jepler> it won't hurt to 'make clean', except for the waiting
[19:56:31] <andypugh> Yeah, it was the waiting prompted the question
[19:57:06] <JT-Hardinge> I've got a short little g code file a few lines of G1 moves and when I add a G0 Z move Axis complains that the program exceeds the machine maximum on axis X, if I take that one line out it quits complaining
[19:57:07] <jepler> you can skip the "make clean" unless you get a message about 'unable to rebuild' .. then clean and make again
[19:57:16] <jepler> JT-Hardinge: I guess you have to leave that G0 move out then
[19:57:47] <JT-Hardinge> didn't know if that might be a clue
[19:58:08] <jepler> sorry, my answer was a bit flip
[19:58:14] <JT-Hardinge> that's ok
[19:58:31] <andypugh> JT-Hardinge: I ask only because I did it today, but are you sure the sign is right on the G0 move?
[19:58:52] <JT-Hardinge> sign?
[19:59:24] <JT-Hardinge> andypugh: the G0 is a Z move and the warning is about X axis
[20:00:13] <JT-Hardinge> if I take the G0 off the line and leave it a G1 it is happy and does not complain
[20:00:53] <andypugh> I guess you could join the git bisect club..
[20:01:42] <JT-Hardinge> if I add another line with G0 after some G1 moves it complains "Program exceedes machine maximum on axis X"
[20:01:47] <jepler> the limits exceeded warning is a pile of crap and somebody smarter than me should replace it with something that works.
[20:03:34] <JT-Hardinge> I'm not smarter than you but I'd be happy to try if you could point me to where the existing exceeded warning part of the code is located
[20:05:44] <JT-Hardinge> a G0 by itself after a G1 move triggers the error
[20:10:25] <andypugh> I ought to move the home flag, it would be an efficency gain during this process. (can't home with the guard down, can't run with the guard up)
[20:31:49] <JT-Hardinge> is the early warning system part of Axis?
[20:52:25] <andypugh> OK, I have ended up with an answer from git bisect, but I might have marked-as-good one that was bad (I am hopeless at keeping my concentration at repettive tasks)
[20:53:52] <andypugh> I think I reverted the implicated commit, and the problem remained
[20:54:25] <andypugh> git revert seems to always open a nano editor window, is that normal?
[20:54:49] <andypugh> (It's a pain in the neck as my lathe keyboard has no Ctrl key, so I can't get out)
[20:58:56] <JT-Hardinge> andypugh: I wish I knew what you were talking about
[20:59:28] <andypugh> So do I, it would be a huge help
[21:10:05] <morficmobile> andypugh: you can tell git what editor to use, not that i have it memorized how, but it's easily changed
[21:11:16] <morficmobile> andypugh: git config --global core.editor "mate -w"
[21:11:17] <morficmobile> <--- google says you do it like that
[21:11:36] <morficmobile> copied invisible linebreaks :(
[21:28:55] <andypugh_garage> Oh no! it's homing in on one of _my_ changes!
[21:51:26] <morficmobile> andypugh: you messed up on the "good to have someone else to blame" concept
[21:51:44] <andypugh> Right, I have found which commit broke lathe threading. It is going to be Mesa-hardware only.
[21:53:44] <andypugh> # bad: [c9add70ba1d5ac28c21821639a3f41d51cca6f35] hostmot2: add support for three-phase pwm
[21:53:44] <andypugh> git-bisect bad c9add70ba1d5ac28c21821639a3f41d51cca6f35
[21:53:44] <andypugh> # good: [1a3e9e71de9a090ec79a993014c76d7011348d47] Revert "hostmot2: add support for three-phase pwm"
[21:53:44] <andypugh> git-bisect good 1a3e9e71de9a090ec79a993014c76d7011348d47
[21:55:22] <andypugh> I fear it is going to be difficult to find, I didn't touch encoders.
[22:31:26] <mozmck> Ok, I'm working on the livecd again finally. I need to remove some things for emc2 to fit. I did away with gnome-games, and I'm thinking maybe rhythmbox can go?
[22:31:50] <alex_joni> mozmck: did you remove the win stuff?
[22:31:53] <alex_joni> wubi & co?
[22:32:55] <mozmck> I don't see wubi installed...
[22:33:51] <alex_joni> it's an exe on the CD
[22:33:58] <alex_joni> outside of the linux stuff
[22:34:11] <alex_joni> otoh, how much do you need?
[22:36:03] <mozmck> hmm, I'm not completely sure. I packed the iso and it is about 735MB vs 700 for the original
[22:37:12] <mozmck> looks like wubi is only 1.4 meg
[22:38:12] <mozmck> rhythmbox is pretty large, and there is still totem for playing audio and video...
[22:38:57] <jthornton> oh no I use rhythmbox to play music while I machine!
[22:39:44] <mozmck> tough! you'll have to install it manually :)
[22:39:59] <jthornton> Oh No... Mr. Bill
[22:40:31] <mozmck> I need to get something off the livecd though to make sure it fits on a CD.
[22:40:35] <jthornton> anyone use bluetooth to talk to their machine?
[22:41:05] <mozmck> I thought about replacing openoffice with abiword and gnumeric. openoffice is one of the largest programs on there.
[22:42:10] <jthornton> the only thing I normally us is the openoffice spreadsheet
[22:42:45] <mozmck> have you tried gnumeric for that? it's a lot smaller but seems to work fine for me.
[22:43:41] <mozmck> I believe abiword will open any document openoffice will...
[22:43:50] <jthornton> I've not heard of it
[22:44:23] <mozmck> both of those are (or were at least) part of the gnome office suite.
[22:45:08] <mozmck> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeOffice
[22:45:56] <jthornton> I'm installing gnumeric now with the synaptic package manager
[22:47:56] <mozmck> gnucash is good for personal finance too in case you haven't heard of it. We switched to it from Quicken somewhere around 1999 or 2000.
[22:48:23] <jthornton> I've used that one before
[22:50:42] <alex_joni> mozmck: last I checked abiword and gnumeric were crap compared to openoffice
[22:50:53] <alex_joni> but I must admit it was a looong time ago
[22:50:56] <andypugh> Yeah, but, this is for a workshop machine.
[22:51:23] <alex_joni> andypugh: I have no problem with removing openoffice
[22:51:44] <mozmck> alex_joni: that could be, but I've found them decent for most things I've needed, and way smaller and faster.
[22:51:48] <andypugh> I, err, "fixed" the threading issue.
[22:52:29] <mozmck> alex_joni: I think they are much better now that they were, but I don't use either very extensively.
[22:52:57] <andypugh> Though a spreadsheet of some sort is probably useful, i spent much of last night using one to generate G-code
[22:54:10] <mozmck> openoffice calc and gnumeric are both terrible compared to excel when it comes to large datasets (100000 or so records).
[22:56:52] <jthornton> there are actually some folks that would love a completely stripped down liveCD with nothing but EMC on it.
[22:57:32] <andypugh> Live credit-card CD for stealth installations
[23:03:30] <mozmck> hmm, I notice a package called example-content. that takes up around 8 meg
[23:38:09] <andypugh> Hi Micges. I nearly unfairly accused you of breaking G76. But then realised that the git bisect procedure breaks if you "good" a build due to testing it wrongly. Then I tried again and found it was all my fault.
[23:48:36] <cradek> andypugh: yay, you found it
[23:48:55] <mozmck> cradek: how about removing compiz from the livecd?
[23:48:55] <andypugh> Yes and no.
[23:49:23] <andypugh> I found a fix, but the fix worries me.
[23:49:46] <mozmck> I removed example-content and gnome-games which freed up some, but not quite enough.
[23:49:47] <andypugh> (Unless I get to say "race condition" and walk away
[23:50:27] <cradek> mozmck: still having space problems?
[23:50:34] <cradek> yuck
[23:51:00] <mozmck> yeah, I'm just getting back to this again. I don't want to take too much off.
[23:51:09] <cradek> how much more space do you need?
[23:51:47] <andypugh> All they need is terminal, Pidgin, EMC2 and Synaptic.
[23:51:49] <mozmck> Not sure. removing example-content should have removed about 7 meg, but I think I needed about 35 meg
[23:52:09] <cradek> did you take out ttf- packages for khmer/lao/punjabi/japanese/thai/korean? I have all those installed by default
[23:53:36] <mozmck> nope. lao is tiny, but looks like thai and takao-pgothic would free up about 10 meg
[23:53:43] <mozmck> or more
[23:53:59] <andypugh> Do we not have users of those languages?
[23:54:15] <cradek> andypugh: they could always install them again
[23:54:28] <andypugh> I bought some little servos from Thailand, I think CNC homebuilds are quite big there.
[23:54:58] <cradek> andypugh: it may or may not be relevant that emc isn't currently internationalized for any of those languages, so they'll have to deal with english anyway to use it.
[23:55:54] <andypugh> We can dump chinese too then, the only potential user I have seen seems determined that writing a new gui is the way to go. (I don;t think he has managed a base compile yet, though)
[23:56:21] <andypugh> Er, smiley