#emc-devel | Logs for 2009-04-28

[01:28:04] <skunkworks> Hi jepler. What hardware failed?
[01:36:56] <jepler> skunkworks: the machine that runs all my stuff
[01:37:11] <jepler> skunkworks: web, email, emc cvs
[01:37:34] <jepler> so now I get to pick out and purchase new hardware, which I used to enjoy
[01:38:27] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883220004
[01:38:58] <jepler> not quite what I need
[01:39:04] <jepler> "ezos"?
[01:39:13] <SWPadnos> it's replaceable :)
[01:40:04] <SWPadnos> you could replace the caps on the old motherboard
[01:40:23] <jepler> I have better things to do with my time
[01:40:27] <SWPadnos> true
[01:40:40] <jepler> like buy hundreds of dollars of replacement hardware, and send this stuff to the landfill
[01:40:40] <SWPadnos> and the cost of the caps may be more than a replacement MB+CPU+RAM
[01:41:15] <SWPadnos> presumably low power is more important than high performance
[01:41:28] <SWPadnos> (given that "low" these days is very relative)
[01:41:48] <SWPadnos> err, "low" in the performance realm anyway
[01:43:13] <jepler> oh I was looking at a 95W quad core
[01:43:23] <SWPadnos> heh. so much for low power
[01:43:33] <jepler> maybe I should consider it .. I dunno
[01:43:41] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856167032
[01:43:52] <jepler> nonono
[01:43:57] <SWPadnos> it seems that for a mail/web/cvs server, you shouldn't need a lot of horsepower
[01:44:14] <SWPadnos> though CVS in VMs may need a bit more
[01:44:26] <jepler> yes but I do need room for the hard drive and internal tape drive (cdrom-size)
[01:44:37] <SWPadnos> oh, tape drive. hmmm
[01:46:43] <SWPadnos> huh. the MSI wind supposedly has a 5.25" bay and a 3.5" internal bay
[01:47:01] <SWPadnos> wow. there it is
[01:51:01] <jepler> I see that
[01:51:42] <jepler> is atom 64bit?
[01:51:46] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:51:55] <SWPadnos> closest to the core2 duo I think
[01:52:24] <SWPadnos> I don't know if it has the virtualization extensions though
[01:53:00] <jepler> I wouldn't want performance of less than half of the machine it was replacing .. http://laptoping.com/intel-atom-benchmark.html
[01:53:25] <jepler> and half the RAM
[01:53:34] <SWPadnos> what was the old one?
[01:53:54] <jepler> Athlon X2 3800+, 4GB DDR2-mumble
[01:54:02] <jepler> at least I think that generation was DDR2, I forget
[01:54:11] <SWPadnos> yeah, probably
[01:54:21] <SWPadnos> certainly not DDR3, probably not plain old DDR
[01:55:07] <jepler> at the moment my cart's got a phenom 9600 and a biostar-brand motherboard (that's the brand the office is buying these days, I guess)
[01:55:19] <SWPadnos> does that benchmark use multiple cores?
[01:55:21] <jepler> and I have a good case and psu
[01:56:29] <jepler> I don't know
[01:57:02] <jepler> if not it penalizes both systems equally
[01:57:13] <SWPadnos> unless that was a single core Atom
[01:57:19] <SWPadnos> which also runs at 1.6 GHz
[01:57:49] <jepler> single core? they still make that?
[01:57:54] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:57:57] <SWPadnos> for embedded, yeah
[01:58:20] <jepler> pc2-5300
[01:58:32] <SWPadnos> ok, DDR2
[01:59:00] <SWPadnos> DDR2-333
[02:00:58] <jepler> frustratingly, I don't have any other systems with the same generation memory
[02:01:07] <SWPadnos> DDR@?
[02:01:10] <SWPadnos> s/@/2/
[02:01:10] <jepler> yeah
[02:01:13] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[02:01:13] <jepler> this other one must be DDR
[02:01:32] <jepler> .. trying to determine whether the modules are damaged or good
[02:01:44] <SWPadnos> I've got a few GB of extra laptop-sized DDR2 sitting around
[02:01:48] <jepler> the screwed-up system will actually run memtest and it didn't detect any errors over an hour
[02:01:54] <jepler> but I don't trust that a whole lot
[02:01:59] <SWPadnos> hmmm. no
[02:02:07] <SWPadnos> where's the video on that system?
[02:02:12] <jepler> onboard
[02:02:21] <SWPadnos> interesting
[02:02:28] <jepler> I booted with pci video and it also crashes during early boot, but it doesn't scramble the screen the same way
[02:02:31] <jepler> I'm sure it means something
[02:02:46] <SWPadnos> the PCI card probably uses more power than onboard
[02:03:00] <SWPadnos> which is worse with screwed up caps
[02:03:07] <jepler> but only from rails regulated in the psu, I had assumed
[02:03:17] <SWPadnos> dunno
[02:04:25] <jepler> this borrowed system reports as Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz, any guesses what family of RAM it has?
[02:04:44] <SWPadnos> it's chipset dependent
[02:04:47] <jepler> oh
[02:04:49] <SWPadnos> unlike the AMDs
[02:04:51] <jepler> that's right
[02:05:17] <jepler> p4m890
[02:05:34] <jepler> -m7
[02:05:42] <SWPadnos> greek
[02:05:50] <jepler> also ddr2
[02:06:44] <jepler> ok, so I know I have some ddr2 I can plug in when my new system arrives, I don't have to buy more
[02:06:47] <jepler> that's good to determine
[02:06:53] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:07:09] <SWPadnos> though memory was on sale for $35 for 4GB today, I think
[02:07:34] <SWPadnos> with a rebate though, so maybe it was $65 now and 30 back
[02:07:38] <jepler> yeah there were some decent deals
[02:08:01] <jmkasunich> pretty soon memory will be like flash sticks - buy a cup of coffee and they throw in a gig of RAM
[02:08:43] <SWPadnos> well, if you combined airport prices for coffee and net prices for flash, we're there now ;)
[02:09:50] <jmkasunich> I just finished operation #1 on 54 little intake manifolds
[02:09:54] <jmkasunich> that gets old fast
[02:10:24] <SWPadnos> got inspired (or hired) at NAMES?
[02:10:38] <jmkasunich> no, this is for a friend of mine
[02:10:45] <jmkasunich> I did 18 of them for him last year
[02:10:53] <SWPadnos> oh, the same ones as before
[02:11:09] <SWPadnos> "boring them out", more or less
[02:11:25] <jmkasunich> "porting" I think is the term
[02:11:30] <jmkasunich> but that is just on the one end
[02:11:39] <jmkasunich> carb end: face, drill, chamfer, tap
[02:11:45] <jmkasunich> block end: face, drill, port
[02:12:16] <jmkasunich> I just finished "face, drill, chamfer" on the carb end
[02:12:27] <SWPadnos> well, it does sound like it would get boring after a while
[02:12:53] <jmkasunich> they're fast enough that you can't do anything else
[02:13:13] <jmkasunich> load part, load first tool, start - about 1 minute later, change tools, start - about 1.5 minutes later, unload part
[02:14:55] <jepler> SWPadnos: I'm looking at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138124 and http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103244 and some pci-express video card
[02:15:46] <jepler> SWPadnos: I read that atom benchmark page again, and it says the test is single-threaded but the "silverthorne" atom CPU benchmarked is dual core..
[02:16:32] <SWPadnos> that looks like a good price on the motherboard, though the SB700 is supposedly slower than the SB750 for disk access
[02:16:33] <jepler> (hm I notice an atom core has much lower performance per MHz than celeron-m 900!)
[02:16:46] <SWPadnos> but higher per watt, most likely
[02:18:23] <jepler> how much slower? I've just got a single 7200RPM disk, surely there's no motherboard it can max out
[02:18:50] <SWPadnos> yeah, it probably won't matter
[02:18:57] <SWPadnos> kind of like the extra couple of cores ;)
[02:19:50] <jepler> oh those I know how to max out .. for up to a minute at a time
[02:20:09] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:21:33] <jepler> actually alex_joni would be thrilled to have it for making ubuntu live cds
[02:21:44] <jepler> the process of compressing the main image is done in parallel
[02:21:45] <SWPadnos> this one may have better performance, for not much more cost: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138140
[02:22:41] <jepler> it'll be a wash if I can use the onboard video instead of a card
[02:22:45] <jepler> (I don't have any post-agp video cards yet)
[02:23:10] <SWPadnos> I didn't notice if that has the 128M of "SidePort" memory
[02:23:10] <jepler> good, the x16 and PCI slots don't conflict..
[02:23:22] <jepler> yes it does
[02:23:28] <jepler> does that mean "actual video ram"?
[02:23:33] <SWPadnos> yes, I believe it does
[02:23:45] <SWPadnos> 1 Gb of dedicated video memory
[02:24:21] <jepler> ah crap, I wonder if my psu has the 24-pin connector..
[02:24:28] <SWPadnos> it looks like it can also share some of main memory - I don't know if that's optional though
[02:27:05] <jepler> SWPadnos: wanna help me pick out a psu?
[02:27:17] <SWPadnos> err -sure
[02:27:43] <jepler> I thought one of mine had a part that clipped on to the old-style 20 pin connector to make it 24
[02:27:47] <jepler> but I guess I was wrong
[02:27:58] <SWPadnos> there are adapters
[02:28:35] <SWPadnos> but of course you can't be sure the PSU can supply the right currents since all they do is split some wires to multiple contacts
[02:29:20] <jepler> too bad you can't sort combo deals by the type of thing combo'd
[02:29:35] <SWPadnos> yeah, that would be nice
[02:30:02] <SWPadnos> what power do you want?
[02:30:26] <SWPadnos> I'm thinking 300-500W should be enough, unless you expect to add a high power video card at some point
[02:30:33] <jepler> let me see if I can find a power figure for my tape drive
[02:31:34] <jepler> beyond CPU (95W TDP) that's probably the next highest item
[02:31:43] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703015
[02:31:46] <jepler> I don't envison powerful video, maybe a 2nd hard drive someday
[02:33:21] <jepler> seems the peak power of this tape drive is only 23W, which is lower than I expected
[02:34:00] <SWPadnos> there were a bunch of less expensive supplies between 400 and 700W, that was the least expensive PCP&C one though
[02:34:38] <SWPadnos> the lowest cost of the brands I selected was $30 or so (Rosewill, which I don't have a lot of experience with, but they seem good so far)
[02:37:08] <jepler> fwiw the old system was on a 350W antec
[02:37:24] <jepler> looks like the office is putting antec in systems, this is a 500W "earthwatts"
[02:37:37] <jepler> and I have a PCP&C silencer which if I recall correctly I bought from you
[02:37:46] <SWPadnos> yep, they're generally quite good too
[02:37:55] <SWPadnos> yes, I believe that's right
[02:38:32] <jepler> I think that the old system was measured at 70W idle, 1xxW loaded, but I don't know the peak. that was with the tape drive external, too
[02:38:41] <jepler> and the old system had a 65W CPU
[02:39:51] <SWPadnos> Antec 430W for $55: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371006
[02:40:18] <SWPadnos> ah, 550W for the same price: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371016
[02:40:55] <jepler> but it's not earthwatts
[02:41:03] <jepler> (is that an efficiency claim?)
[02:41:08] <SWPadnos> true
[02:41:11] <SWPadnos> I think so
[02:41:30] <SWPadnos> they say 80%
[02:41:45] <jepler> "up to 85" vs "at least 80"
[02:41:56] <jepler> I have a bet about which one is better at typical loads
[02:42:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:42:34] <SWPadnos> the BP550 has a 120mm fan, so it could be quieter than the 80mm in the EarthWatts one
[02:42:52] <jepler> yeah I was noticing that
[02:42:56] <jepler> I see one is atxv2.0 and one is v2.2
[02:43:15] <SWPadnos> and has modular cabling, for extra bling visibility
[02:43:30] <jepler> I don't know what that means
[02:43:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:43:47] <SWPadnos> you only plug in the cables you want
[02:44:06] <SWPadnos> I think "bling" means "shiny things", but I've never been sure :)
[02:44:53] <jepler> oh, the modular cabling means you'll lose the cables when you need them later?
[02:45:17] <SWPadnos> yes, or plug them all in "just in case", thuse defeating the purpose
[02:45:36] <SWPadnos> and what's really dumb on the units I've seen is that the cables aren't even interchangeable
[02:45:57] <jepler> I see that one connector is a different color on that antec 550
[02:46:07] <SWPadnos> so you can't decide you want one more drive cable and one less PCIe cable - they're just straight through cables for the different connector types
[02:46:20] <SWPadnos> probably primary vs. secondary PCIe connectors
[02:46:52] <jepler> they look identical except for the color .. I can't discern any keying
[02:47:12] <jepler> and nothing shows a legend for which is which
[02:47:33] <jepler> I see that the pcie connector is also red, though, and all the rest are black
[02:47:46] <jepler> 4th and 8th pictures
[02:48:10] <SWPadnos> yes, the PCIe video cards that take two connectors have a red and a blue or black one
[02:48:21] <SWPadnos> those are PCIe
[02:48:39] <jepler> oh, hm -- you're saying the card end is red
[02:48:47] <jepler> that blows my theory out of the water
[02:48:53] <SWPadnos> yes, I believe so
[02:51:04] <SWPadnos> hmmm. well, not on this card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133256
[02:51:12] <SWPadnos> but that is a cool looking card (very shiny)
[02:51:30] <jepler> yeah it's all blingish
[02:51:53] <SWPadnos> and only $315 after rebate. hmmm
[02:55:26] <jepler> Cons: ... bland grey color. Black would have been nice
[02:55:46] <SWPadnos> damn. I hate bland grey
[02:55:56] <SWPadnos> oh wait, I don't actually care
[02:58:17] <SWPadnos> ok, bedtime for me. good luck with it
[02:58:46] <jepler> see you
[02:58:47] <jepler> thanks
[02:59:32] <jepler> "Please add antec.com to your Safe Senders list, or check your spam folder regularly. We have received several complaints that our support team never responded, when in fact the response had been routed to the recipients’ spam folders."
[03:15:11] <jepler> sigh .. ordered
[03:52:40] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[13:50:09] <cradek> welcome back
[13:50:12] <jepler> my dsl is busted. the phone company will hopefully look at it within the next 24 hours. cvs will be down until it's fixed.
[13:50:58] <cradek> arg.
[13:51:10] <jepler> .. this is why we should switch to git at least two days ago
[13:55:48] <BJT-Work> what is git?
[13:56:09] <BJT-Work> nm I found it
[13:58:13] <BJT-Work> hmm git is easier to type than cvs :)
[13:58:24] <jepler> yes, in fact that it's primary advantage
[13:59:12] <jepler> actually, the advantage I'm thinking of is that it has a much reduced reliance on a central server compared to cvs.
[13:59:29] <BJT-Work> that would be better
[14:00:07] <BJT-Work> this is funny "git is a distributed version control system. No, you don't need to know what that means to use this guide. Think of it as a time machine: Subversion or CVS without the suck. "
[14:00:20] <skunkworks> internet went down here at work yesterday - they where here in an hour - fixed in 2. I guess being a business helps.
[14:01:01] <cradek> BJT-Work: one of the problems with git is the git advocates
[14:01:02] <jepler> I buy "small business" level dsl from my isp, but the telco still treats it like home service
[14:01:27] <BJT-Work> how is that cradek ?
[14:02:43] <cradek> git advocates seem to spend a lot of time insulting other systems and the people who use them
[14:03:01] <BJT-Work> ok, I see now
[14:03:03] <cradek> (maybe every piece of software has those folks though)
[14:03:26] <BJT-Work> yep
[14:04:42] <BJT-Work> is the security with git as good or better than cvs?
[14:04:52] <cradek> heh http://www.databasesandlife.com/why-subversion-is-better-than-git/
[14:05:02] <cradek> BJT-Work: which kind of security do you mean?
[14:05:31] <BJT-Work> for commits
[14:05:58] <cradek> you can control who can put changes in your repository, just like cvs
[14:06:19] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work reads about git
[16:02:10] <skunkworks> Jepler!
[16:02:19] <jepler_> hi skunkworks
[16:02:36] <skunkworks> that looks promising.
[16:03:27] <skunkworks> hey - cvs is back up :)
[16:03:37] <jepler_> hopefully the phone company doesn't unbreak it
[16:03:42] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[16:05:09] <skunkworks> Jepler: Last night I meant what failed within your computer. (hd motherboard ps?)
[16:06:10] <jepler> skunkworks: I think it's the motherboard
[16:06:20] <jepler> but I ended up ordering a replacement psu, motherboard, cpu
[16:07:55] <skunkworks> nice :)
[16:08:21] <jepler> at least I can afford it
[16:10:50] <jepler> actually the psu+mobo+cpu isn't that expensive, it's replacing the tape backup system which *also* flaked out at the same time that is expensive
[16:11:25] <skunkworks> yes - tape backups are an expensive evil.
[16:14:42] <skunkworks> what are you using?
[16:15:46] <jepler> old system is SCSI DLT-4 35GB native, new system will be USB DAT 80GB native
[16:17:25] <skunkworks> aw. I have some new 40/80dlt IV I could have sent you.
[16:17:53] <jepler> 80/160 will give me a bit more growing room
[16:17:55] <cradek> drives or tapes??
[16:18:05] <skunkworks> tapes
[16:18:11] <cradek> ah, those I have :-)
[16:18:20] <cradek> my tapes are 40/80 but my drive is 35/70
[16:18:24] <skunkworks> I have a drive (it is flakey scsi) if you want it.
[16:18:34] <jepler> it seems to be the scsi card that flaked out
[16:19:04] <jepler> two machines I tried it on won't finish POSTing with the card in
[16:19:37] <skunkworks> cradek: do you need them? I have 15 of them
[16:20:40] <cradek> thanks but I don't need them bad enough to justify your shipping them - I have probably 10 already that I'm not using. My rotation is 6 or 8 currently so I'm set for a long time.
[16:21:01] <jepler> skunkworks can just toss him in his car when he drives down from wichita
[16:21:15] <skunkworks> I could do that. :)
[16:21:18] <cradek> hm that's true
[16:21:26] <cradek> if you bring them I'll happily take them off your hands.
[16:22:02] <skunkworks> I will try to remember if we do come. (the garage is going well so I am thinking that it should be a go)
[16:22:06] <jepler> my old tapes will go to Ingrid's organization; she still uses a DLT drive and it hasn't freaked out yet
[16:22:12] <jepler> of course you're going to come
[16:22:41] <cradek> you'll be there - I can read your mind.
[16:22:50] <skunkworks> heh
[16:39:54] <SWPadnos> oh hmm - anyone looking for PCI SCSI cards?
[16:40:09] <SWPadnos> I have a few Adaptecs of various flavors
[16:40:39] <SWPadnos> (AHA-2940, 3940, an AAC-131 RAID card, maybe others)
[16:40:44] <SWPadnos> oh, and an old Buslogic
[22:30:16] <dgarr> jepler: what are the features added or modified for ::cb::nicer_cb (apart from the image gifs)? just curious, i haven't studied the code
[23:28:42] <jepler> dgarr: that's basically it
[23:28:50] <jepler> dgarr: tk8.4 and earlier have ugly motif-style indicators
[23:33:45] <dgarr> jepler: isn't tk8.4 required for emc2?
[23:34:43] <dgarr> or i mean for axis/tkemc/etc
[23:35:11] <jepler> dgarr: oh, they're ugly including in 8.4
[23:35:20] <jepler> I think 8.5 is the first version that looks "like you'd expect"
[23:35:25] <jepler> (i.e., about like windows 95)
[23:36:36] <jepler> I don't recall offhand if we have some requirement for 8.4, or whether earlier versions are OK too -- even back to breezy it's 8.4, so we're not seeing a lot of older systems in practice
[23:37:35] <dgarr> i sometimes use a checkbutton as an indicator and then don't want the little checkmark
[23:38:31] <jepler> is that one of the things that's broken with cb.tcl?
[23:39:59] <dgarr> not sure what you mean, for my application i reverted to the original checkbutton with -selectorcolor green for example
[23:41:13] <jepler> oh, you're referring to how -selectcolor doesn't work
[23:41:14] <jepler> ?
[23:41:17] <dgarr> s/-selectorcolor/selectcolor/
[23:41:27] <jepler> I was wondering if I'd broken -indicatoron
[23:41:31] <dgarr> yes that was what i was referring to
[23:41:38] <jepler> it's ok if you prefer to use tk lingo, I know both
[23:41:47] <jepler> far too many neurons spent on tcl/tk
[23:46:28] <dgarr> i wonder if anyone uses hidden machinable files
[23:50:27] <jepler> I haven't figured out what's special about that checkbutton
[23:50:30] <jepler> it's frustrating
[23:51:28] <jepler> as near as I can capture from debug prints, the binding that's supposed to pass the button event from the overlay image to the real checkbutton leads to another button event going to the image
[23:51:33] <jepler> but that makes no sense
[23:53:12] <dgarr> i looked a little, comment out this line stops the bad behavior (but thec checkbutton doesnt check either # bindtags $w._button [list ::cb::nicer_cb_b [winfo toplevel $w] all]
[23:54:33] <jepler> yeah
[23:59:58] <jepler> dgarr: you must be a geek. http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/phpv1/index.php?img=01-OT2%2Fp1040189.jpg