#emc-devel | Logs for 2008-12-13

[01:01:57] <SWPadnos> too bad they aren't starting this month
[01:29:14] <jmkasunich> I think they are open the 20th
[01:31:40] <SWPadnos> yeah. I may take advantage of that
[01:31:56] <SWPadnos> though if they're crowded I may choose to go there on a weekday
[01:32:46] <SWPadnos> I basically have two choices at the moment: 1) have a friend go with me on Thursday/Friday, with Saturday as an overflow travel day
[01:32:59] <SWPadnos> or 2) do it myself Friday, Saturday and Sunday
[01:33:08] <jmkasunich> if you are talking about the lathe pickup, the driveway will be a lot more crowded on saturday
[01:33:15] <SWPadnos> yeah. hmm
[01:33:51] <SWPadnos> there's also the possibility of going a week later, like the day after Christmas, and spending a couple of days at Niagara Falls with my wife
[01:34:11] <SWPadnos> but she doesn't want to take off work next Friday or Monday to go earlier
[01:43:03] <SWPadnos> cradek, did you do anything special with the chip guards? (like removing them, padding, bungeed open or closed ... )
[02:25:32] <cradek> bungeed open, I think
[02:25:39] <cradek> otherwise you can't tie it down
[02:26:50] <SWPadnos> right
[02:27:03] <SWPadnos> plexiglass isn't so good for holding tons of steel
[03:31:56] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[03:32:31] <steve_stallings> SWP - watch out for loose areas in the tarp, the wind will beat the sh*** out of it
[03:33:14] <cradek> if I did it again, I would try to get a pallet plastic wrapper thing
[03:33:21] <cradek> it would be easy to cover the tarp with it
[03:33:22] <steve_stallings> recheck straps after a few miles, and especially if they get wet, they will stretch
[03:33:41] <SWPadnos> heh - yeah, I know tarps get beaten up pretty badly
[03:33:50] <cradek> the tarp lasted pretty much half the trip back
[03:34:10] <cradek> it was still better than nothing, but not much
[03:34:10] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:34:12] <steve_stallings> and water on the lathe will not be fatal if you can get it dry soon after arriving home
[03:34:19] <cradek> there's still blue dust everywhere
[03:34:36] <SWPadnos> I'm planning on taking it easy on the way back - ~250 miles one day and ~350-400 the second
[03:34:58] <SWPadnos> so I get time to browse on loading day :)
[03:35:10] <SWPadnos> I'm just trying to figure out how to figure out the tongue weight
[03:35:24] <SWPadnos> s/figure out/measure/2
[03:35:42] <steve_stallings> make sure you take some squished air on the road with you to boost tires if one goes slack
[03:35:43] <cradek> bathroom scale
[03:36:02] <SWPadnos> we don't have one
[03:36:11] <SWPadnos> and I don't think they go that high :)
[03:36:47] <SWPadnos> (of course I could buy one - I know that :) )
[03:36:56] <cradek> scaling 2:1 is easy if you have some 4x4 scrap with you (and you should)
[03:37:03] <steve_stallings> arrange to have a couple of hundred pounds of stuff that you can relocate on the trailer
[03:37:09] <SWPadnos> that's true
[03:37:20] <steve_stallings> if the trailer wants to wag the car, put more weight on the tongue
[03:37:26] <SWPadnos> yep. I can probably buy a few hundred pounds of extra stuff if necessary ;)
[03:37:46] <SWPadnos> the Jeep is ~4500 pounds, the trailer and load will be 5500+
[03:37:59] <SWPadnos> but it does have brakes on both axels
[03:38:07] <SWPadnos> or axles even
[03:38:43] <cradek> I could not figure out a way to test the trailer brakes except "seems to stop ok" - I would have been happier if I had had a way to test them.
[03:38:54] <SWPadnos> yeah. I know the feeling
[03:39:11] <SWPadnos> testing when you're about to rear-end someone isn't ideal
[03:39:20] <SWPadnos> or at any other time on the interstate, more or less
[03:39:26] <steve_stallings> relative weight is not a killer, I towed 14K lbs with a 6K vehicle, pulled easily and smoothly
[03:40:16] <cradek> what seemed amazing was how often I had to stop for gas...
[03:40:33] <steve_stallings> if you can test the trailer brakes independent of tow vehicle it can increase your confidence
[03:40:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:40:33] <cradek> (I'm not used to driving a truck)
[03:40:38] <SWPadnos> I have to do that anyway with the Jeep
[03:40:44] <steve_stallings> I was able to stop truck and trailer with just trailer brakes from 20 MPH
[03:41:00] <cradek> how did you do that test?
[03:41:03] <SWPadnos> I get 22 or so on the highway, I'm expecting half that if I'm lucky
[03:41:16] <SWPadnos> oh, all you need is a battery and a rider on the trailer
[03:41:26] <steve_stallings> inertial controllers have a lever or button on them to test
[03:41:27] <SWPadnos> with balls and no brain
[03:41:28] <cradek> that doesn't test the truck's brake output
[03:41:50] <SWPadnos> I'll have to see what's on this trailer - I don't know what it has
[03:42:08] <steve_stallings> electric or surge?
[03:42:14] <SWPadnos> electric I believe
[03:42:38] <steve_stallings> do you have a brake controller in the Jeep, or just plan on splicing into the brake lights?
[03:42:52] <SWPadnos> well, I'm not sure
[03:43:05] <SWPadnos> it's wired with a 7-pin jack, if that tells you anything
[03:43:09] <SWPadnos> it has the towing option
[03:43:12] <SWPadnos> factory
[03:43:12] <steve_stallings> brake lights can be jerky since they do not modulate
[03:43:31] <SWPadnos> right
[03:43:52] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure my friend has towed this trailer with my Jeep, but I'm not positive
[03:43:58] <steve_stallings> OK, factor docs should tell you something, perhaps you even have a brake controller of some sort
[03:44:20] <SWPadnos> yeah. I could check now, but those are outside and I'm inside and well ...
[03:44:29] <cradek> and it's fing cold
[03:44:39] <SWPadnos> not that cold - it's above 20
[03:44:43] <SWPadnos> more or less
[03:45:08] <steve_stallings> 7-pin and about 1.25 diameter? that is a standard heavy duty trailer setup
[03:45:26] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's the kind of thing you'd use with a rather large RV
[03:45:41] <steve_stallings> hope you do not encounter ice or snow on your trip
[03:45:59] <SWPadnos> yeah, that's one reason for a two day return trip
[03:46:11] <steve_stallings> that would be cause to cancel or lay over a couple of nights
[03:46:16] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:46:31] <SWPadnos> I should get snow tires before I go
[03:47:16] <steve_stallings> may help, but not major since the most dangerous mode is stopping not pulling
[03:47:25] <cradek> I would not even tow that in rain - no way for snow - you'd have to be insane
[03:47:27] <SWPadnos> maybe for the trailer ;)
[03:47:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:48:34] <steve_stallings> just take it to JMK's place and park it until spring
[03:48:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:48:55] <SWPadnos> I don't think he has room for it, or he just might have gotten it for himself :)
[03:49:26] <steve_stallings> is it 5C or 16C?
[03:49:42] <SWPadnos> I don't know. it has what looks like an air chuck on it
[03:49:45] <cradek> 5c
[03:49:50] <SWPadnos> they made both
[03:50:00] <steve_stallings> 5C would have a threaded chuck mount, 16C would be A2-5
[03:50:03] <cradek> oh - interesting
[03:50:21] <SWPadnos> I also don't know if it has the 3HP or 5HP spindle motor
[03:50:32] <cradek> mine's 2
[03:50:35] <SWPadnos> oh
[03:50:40] <SWPadnos> or the 2HP spindle motor
[03:50:58] <steve_stallings> Hardinge thread is unique, something like 2-3/16, 10 TPI
[03:51:12] <SWPadnos> luckily you can turn that if you have a lathe
[03:51:20] <cradek> yep, takes a lot of luck to find a chuck for it
[03:51:35] <SWPadnos> the chuck is probably worth most of the cost of the lathe
[03:51:46] <SWPadnos> the chuck and tool holders almost certainly so
[03:51:53] <cradek> comes with tool holders?
[03:51:56] <SWPadnos> 8
[03:51:59] <cradek> nice!
[03:52:01] <SWPadnos> some with tools in them
[03:52:05] <cradek> hope they are a useful combination
[03:52:06] <SWPadnos> yeah, I thought so
[03:52:08] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:52:31] <SWPadnos> some boring, at least one turning with a standard insert
[03:52:54] <SWPadnos> or maybe one of the boring bars had a standard insert - don't recal
[03:52:56] <SWPadnos> l
[03:53:04] <cradek> cool.
[03:53:17] <SWPadnos> yeah. it'll be good
[03:53:23] <cradek> I have some duplicates I don't need - if you do too, maybe we can trade some stuff around.
[03:53:32] <SWPadnos> ok, I'll let you know
[03:53:41] <steve_stallings> Hardinge stuff is not that rare, there were a lot of them
[03:54:08] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:54:12] <steve_stallings> it is common for a Southbend owner to accidentally purchase a Hardinge chuck
[03:54:19] <SWPadnos> oops
[03:54:35] <steve_stallings> then sell it cheap! 8-)
[03:54:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:54:59] <SWPadnos> now I'm looking for sapre/replacement tooling plates, and there aren't any around
[03:55:13] <SWPadnos> there used to be, between $100 and $500 (depending)
[03:55:36] <steve_stallings> gee, ready to sell your soul? now what do I need.....
[03:55:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:56:06] <SWPadnos> if you want some things that I can (a) buy and (b) carry to Galesburg *without* the trailer, let me know ;)
[03:56:34] <steve_stallings> if you get one with the lathe, you will probably find that you will only want another if you go into production and want to save a setup
[03:56:57] <cradek> I think you could get them for 3/8 and 1/2 height tools - mine is the 3/8
[03:57:06] <cradek> 1/2 would be better to have.
[03:57:22] <SWPadnos> hmmm. do you have any boring bar holders?
[03:57:36] <SWPadnos> or "round shank tool" holders
[03:57:42] <cradek> yeah, a few, not enough really
[03:57:43] <SWPadnos> (same thing, different name)
[03:57:57] <cradek> hmm, maybe I'm wrong about there being two heights - those holders wouldn't work
[03:57:58] <SWPadnos> ok, the ones on this are 5/8". what are yours?
[03:58:00] <steve_stallings> yes, there are two styles, and I cannot remember which lathes they came on but they shipped based on type of lathe, i.e. AHC vs NC
[03:58:08] <cradek> yes 5/8
[03:58:11] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:58:23] <steve_stallings> 5/8 is the diameter, not the height offset
[03:58:26] <SWPadnos> of course I have 3/4 boring bars
[03:58:29] <SWPadnos> right
[03:58:33] <SWPadnos> just made me think of it
[03:58:54] <cradek> I have one or two that have a 3/4 hole actually. don't know if they came that way or not.
[03:59:16] <SWPadnos> I think I spotted a knurling tool holder for $30 (?)
[03:59:18] <cradek> the hole pokes out the bottom - doesn't seem original
[03:59:23] <SWPadnos> ah
[03:59:44] <SWPadnos> I probably need to look at this stuff before I'll be able to discuss it intelligently
[03:59:54] <steve_stallings> Hardinge did offer 3/4" for the tailstock turret stuff, but I do not remember any for the tooling plate
[03:59:57] <SWPadnos> did you lay the control down for the trip?
[04:00:07] <cradek> no
[04:00:21] <cradek> it was upright, wrapped in plastic so all the doors would stay shut
[04:00:26] <steve_stallings> why are you bringing the control home?
[04:00:34] <SWPadnos> ok, all the transformers on the bottom?
[04:00:35] <cradek> it has very good stuff in it
[04:00:41] <SWPadnos> I think they'd charge me more to leave it :)
[04:00:44] <cradek> not all, but the two heavy ones are on the bottom
[04:00:54] <SWPadnos> plus, if the motor drives work that's a bonus
[04:00:54] <cradek> (it has a dozen or so)
[04:00:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:01:20] <cradek> yeah you really want the servo transformer and drives, I would think
[04:01:25] <steve_stallings> yea, but air motors don't count
[04:01:33] <SWPadnos> this is an HNC, not an AHC
[04:01:37] <cradek> unless you have a different conversion scheme in mind
[04:01:59] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[04:01:59] <SWPadnos> my hope is that everything works
[04:02:06] <cradek> hi jmk
[04:02:11] <SWPadnos> my backup is that I can put new servos and drives on it :)
[04:02:13] <SWPadnos> hi jmk
[04:02:34] <jmkasunich> tooling: 3 turning toolholders, one has a tool in it, which in turn has a rather standard 80 degree diamond insert
[04:02:39] <jmkasunich> the others are just holders
[04:02:49] <SWPadnos> I finally found a drive for the 200W Yaskawa AC servo a friend has
[04:02:54] <SWPadnos> oh, ok
[04:02:58] <jmkasunich> 5 boring holders, 5/8" holes, two or three of which have HSS boring tools
[04:03:12] <cradek> nice
[04:03:30] <cradek> are the boring holders one or two bolt style?
[04:03:33] <steve_stallings> my guess is that 200 watt AC servos would be marginal on this machine, 400 watt would be better
[04:03:41] <SWPadnos> the 200W is free :)
[04:03:44] <jmkasunich> cradek: not sure I know what you mean
[04:03:49] <SWPadnos> it may be OK for X
[04:03:58] <jmkasunich> two bolts (nuts actually) hold the holder to the turret
[04:03:59] <SWPadnos> if needed
[04:04:06] <jmkasunich> setscrews (I think) hold the tools in the holders
[04:04:23] <cradek> nice. some have only one bolt, so they can turn, not suitable for drills etc.
[04:04:47] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: you are thinking about replacing the motors?
[04:05:00] <SWPadnos> I'm more thinking about what to do if I have to replace the motors
[04:05:04] <jmkasunich> oh
[04:05:12] <jmkasunich> cross that bridge if/when you come to it
[04:05:14] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:05:16] <jmkasunich> I bet they are fine
[04:05:33] <SWPadnos> yep. I'm less worried about motors than the drives
[04:05:34] <jmkasunich> and if not, I'd seek out identical replacements before kluging something in there
[04:05:43] <SWPadnos> but I do have a few analog drives here
[04:05:45] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:05:46] <SWPadnos> yeah
[04:05:46] <jmkasunich> the motors are DC aren't they cradek?
[04:05:55] <cradek> yes, brushes
[04:06:05] <steve_stallings> yes, keep the motors if possible, mounts are strange
[04:06:11] <jmkasunich> so drives won't be a big deal if it comes to that
[04:06:14] <SWPadnos> so I've heard
[04:06:31] <SWPadnos> yeah. I have some that will probably work, though probably not at the right voltage
[04:06:38] <SWPadnos> that was something like 100-110V, right?
[04:07:21] <cradek> DC bus is 90V
[04:07:39] <cradek> amps take 90, +-12 to 15
[04:08:44] <SWPadnos> oh, that's good
[04:08:51] <SWPadnos> I think the drives I have are 80 or 100
[04:08:54] <SWPadnos> 80 maybe
[04:09:06] <cradek> it says peak is 85V 25A
[04:09:24] <jmkasunich> as a bonus, there is a tape in the reader
[04:09:32] <cradek> ha
[04:09:34] <SWPadnos> great. I have 30A 80V drives :)
[04:09:34] <jmkasunich> in case you want to make whatever the lathe made last
[04:09:38] <SWPadnos> I wonder what it does :)
[04:09:45] <cradek> maybe the thing actually works
[04:10:22] <SWPadnos> oh. resolver input would be a pain
[04:10:27] <jmkasunich> I wonder how hard it is gonna be to find top jaws for the chuck
[04:10:49] <steve_stallings> air chuck or mechanical
[04:10:54] <jmkasunich> air I believe
[04:11:14] <jmkasunich> no sign of a place to insert a chuck key, and "stuff" on the back end of the spindle
[04:11:19] <jmkasunich> confusing stuff actually
[04:11:39] <jmkasunich> there is one short, wide thing, probably a cylinder, about 6" dia x 2" thick, with two air lines
[04:11:48] <jmkasunich> those are disconnected (quick-connects)
[04:11:51] <steve_stallings> I have some for one brand, not Microcentric but the other common one...
[04:12:19] <jmkasunich> and the hoses from the lathe are hooked to a smaller cylinder (or something) that is farther out the back (actually sticks out thru a hole in the plexiglass
[04:12:39] <SWPadnos> that may be for the barfeeder
[04:12:56] <jmkasunich> no, the smaller thing completely blocks the spindle hole
[04:13:04] <jmkasunich> I suspect it may be the actuator for the chuck
[04:13:11] <SWPadnos> hmmm. ok
[04:13:17] <jmkasunich> when you remove the chuck and the small thing, I bet the spindle bore is clear for bars
[04:13:29] <jmkasunich> I'm guessing the larger thing is the actuator for collets
[04:13:40] <jmkasunich> I should have taken my camera
[04:13:53] <SWPadnos> I was just thinking that I should have suggested it :)
[04:14:03] <SWPadnos> but I didn't think of it
[04:14:09] <steve_stallings> air chucks for a Hardinge are typically ones with an air bladder inside rather than pulled by a drawbar
[04:14:10] <jmkasunich> cradek: what does your air-drawbar look like?
[04:14:40] <jmkasunich> steve_stallings: hmm - the thing on the back end is small, maybe it is just a rotary air joint (equiv of slip rings)?
[04:14:48] <steve_stallings> the air chuck actuactor has a rotary air union to feed the tube running to the chuck
[04:15:09] <jmkasunich> I bet thats what I saw
[04:15:17] <steve_stallings> there are usually two air lines and the chuck is positive open and positive close
[04:15:27] <jmkasunich> about 1 or 1.5" diameter, 2" or so long, two air lines
[04:15:32] <steve_stallings> the tube is acutally coaxial with two air paths
[04:15:41] <jmkasunich> the tube thru the spindle bore?
[04:15:42] <cradek> I'm getting a photo
[04:15:57] <steve_stallings> tube thru the bore
[04:16:08] <jmkasunich> that sounds very much like what I saw
[04:16:19] <steve_stallings> tube is typically 3/8" to 1/2" diameter
[04:16:23] <jmkasunich> the large diameter thing that is disconnected is probably the collet drawbar cylinder
[04:17:06] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/pict6437.jpg
[04:17:10] <jmkasunich> the smaller one passes right thru it, rotary union on the back, and you switch the hoses from the rotary union to the collet actuator depending on the type of work you are doing
[04:17:24] <steve_stallings> drawbar cylinders are typically 5" to 7" diameter and would have to be completely out of the way to set up the rotary union for an air chuck
[04:17:35] <jmkasunich> yep - where you have those brass tubes, this machine has shorter tubes and quick-disconnects
[04:17:54] <cradek> those are disconnects
[04:17:57] <jmkasunich> then the other part (rotary union) passes thru the center and sticks out farther to the right
[04:18:27] <jmkasunich> cradek: you have disconnects on the ends of fairly long pipes, I think this one has shorter pipes (minor difference)
[04:18:27] <steve_stallings> OK, I guess that if the feed tube were long enough the collet closer could be left in place, but that is not typical
[04:19:03] <jmkasunich> the black hoses in cradek's picture mate with smaller hoses that go to the rotary union
[04:19:55] <jmkasunich> cradek: what are the two black hoses on the left going up? cutoff slide?
[04:20:21] <cradek> cutting oil
[04:20:35] <jmkasunich> oh
[04:20:56] <cradek> you can't see it well, but there's also some cutoff slide stuff there
[04:21:07] <cradek> behind the encoder housing
[04:21:42] <jmkasunich> swp's lathe has a plate mounted on the flat where the cutoff slide would go, with a rod sticking up that supports the cutting oil nozzle(s)
[04:21:59] <SWPadnos> cradek, cutoff slide stuff in the back?
[04:22:06] <steve_stallings> here is a link to one popular aftermarket collet closer that is actually more common than the Hardinge factory one: http://www.dunhamtool.com/air_collet_closer.html
[04:22:10] <SWPadnos> (or in the front, so we can't see it?)
[04:22:34] <cradek> SWPadnos: it's from above
[04:23:13] <cradek> I have not used it - it may not even be wired right - it randomly goes up and down, always has even with the old control
[04:23:25] <SWPadnos> right - the slide is the thing we can't quite see because it goess out of frame at the top of your photo, right?
[04:23:26] <cradek> bad SSR or something maybe
[04:23:29] <cradek> yes
[04:23:29] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[04:23:38] <SWPadnos> isn't it air actuated?
[04:23:41] <cradek> yes
[04:23:57] <cradek> PSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTT [slide moves up]
[04:24:00] <SWPadnos> dead solenoid and variable pressure?
[04:24:00] <cradek> .......
[04:24:01] <cradek> ...
[04:24:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:24:09] <cradek> PSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTT [slide moves down]
[04:24:28] <SWPadnos> steve_stallings, nice looking collet closers there
[04:24:29] <cradek> that's my impression of the cutoff slide.
[04:24:32] <cradek> * cradek bows
[04:24:44] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvCXdyjxKkk
[04:24:49] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos applauds, by tapping two fingers on my palm
[04:24:51] <jmkasunich> shows soem of the spindle drivetrain
[04:25:33] <jmkasunich> at about 0:21 you get a glimpse of the cutoff slide
[04:25:50] <jmkasunich> again at 0:30
[04:26:36] <jmkasunich> I took off the back cover ( 0:55 and later), things in there look decent
[04:26:40] <jmkasunich> motor turns freely, etc
[04:26:53] <jmkasunich> both clutches were disengaged, brake was engaged
[04:26:54] <cradek> did you figure out how to disengage the brake?
[04:27:00] <jmkasunich> no
[04:27:10] <steve_stallings> Northfield and Microcentric are the two most common air chucks. They use soft jaws cut to fit the job. Movable jaw hard jaws do exist for some air chucks, but these were not common on Hardinges.
[04:27:31] <jmkasunich> ah, ok
[04:27:46] <jmkasunich> this one has soft jaws on it, pie style
[04:28:00] <jmkasunich> I assumed that was just for a specific job and that the norm is hard jaws
[04:29:00] <steve_stallings> Hardinge users were usually after high accuracy and soft jaws are the way to get it.
[04:35:47] <SWPadnos> hmmm. anyone know what the difference is between the Advanced Motion Controls 30A8T and the 30A8V?
[04:36:49] <jmkasunich> http://www.drautochuck.com/AFT_SwivelJoints.htm
[04:37:18] <jmkasunich> the top right pic or 2nd row center seems like the widget on the back end of the spindle
[04:37:56] <SWPadnos> huh. thanks for finding that
[04:38:55] <steve_stallings> classic setup for an air tube execpt missing the collar to keep the tube centered in the spindle
[04:39:33] <SWPadnos> ok, so I guess I don't know why there's a tube and the rotary union
[04:39:39] <SWPadnos> if that's indeed what both things are
[04:39:50] <jmkasunich> ?
[04:40:05] <jmkasunich> the rotary union and tube feeds air to the chuck when you are using the chuck
[04:40:19] <jmkasunich> remove chuck and union, connect to the regular cylinder as in cradek's photo to use collets
[04:40:51] <SWPadnos> ah, ok. for some reason I thought the rotary union also had an air path to the chuck connected to it
[04:41:17] <jmkasunich> heh, a pic is worth 1000 words - you'll see it soon
[04:41:28] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:41:40] <SWPadnos> general understanding of how these things work would also be good :)
[04:41:48] <steve_stallings> rotary union and feed tube supply air to alternate sides of a diaphram inside the chuck to open and close the chuck
[04:42:11] <SWPadnos> yep - I caught that there need to be two air paths - I assumed for the equivalent of a double-acting cylinder
[04:42:15] <jmkasunich> steve_stallings: the chuck can clamp just as well when "opening" as closing, right?
[04:42:32] <SWPadnos> you may have to swap the hoses :)
[04:42:50] <jmkasunich> the soft jaws that are on there right now seem to be machined to clamp something from inside
[04:42:50] <steve_stallings> I think so, but I have not actually seen jaws set up for inside expansion to clamp
[04:43:21] <steve_stallings> in any event, the mechanism inside the chuck is double acting
[04:43:25] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, I couldn't tell the chuck size from the HGR photo - what size do you think it is?
[04:43:32] <SWPadnos> (looked like 5 or 6 inches maybe)
[04:44:05] <jmkasunich> more like 5 than 6
[04:44:22] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:44:58] <SWPadnos> steve_stallings, a non-descriptive image and description are here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320274513641
[04:45:04] <SWPadnos> but I'm sure you;ve seen them before :)
[04:45:49] <jmkasunich> one of those "need to learn how to work it" things will be the barfeeder
[04:45:50] <cradek> the mounting around the spindle nose is 5.500" so you should be able to tell 5 vs 6 from the photo
[04:46:07] <SWPadnos> looks like 5.75 then
[04:46:12] <jmkasunich> heh
[04:46:20] <cradek> sure might be 6
[04:46:23] <steve_stallings> beige paint? yuck!
[04:46:33] <jmkasunich> supposed to be gray?
[04:46:41] <SWPadnos> bright purple!
[04:46:54] <jmkasunich> that pic doesn't show one piece
[04:47:03] <steve_stallings> chuck mount is not A2-5 because the chuck would be flat against the spindle if it were, therefore treaded and 5C
[04:47:12] <jmkasunich> there is a 9' long tube with an oiler hanging off one side, part of the feeder
[04:47:13] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[04:47:32] <SWPadnos> hopefully all the doodads will stay with it until Friday
[04:47:55] <jmkasunich> they are tagged 1/4, 2/4, etc, and g/w (goes with) the item number
[04:48:06] <SWPadnos> ah, good
[04:48:27] <SWPadnos> I could use this to unload: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370129069637
[04:48:51] <jmkasunich> item in cincinatto, winch not working
[04:48:56] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:49:00] <SWPadnos> maybe not then ;)
[04:49:18] <steve_stallings> there should be another piece to the feeder I think, another floor stand with a small rectangular column with some pneumatic controls on it
[04:49:40] <jmkasunich> two stands total?
[04:50:19] <steve_stallings> not sure, I have never seen a running setup but I have seen the other style of stand with the controls
[04:50:41] <jmkasunich> I have no idea how the barfeeder even works
[04:51:18] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't be totally surprised if some parts of the feeder didn't make it, considering that the machine is set up as a chucker
[04:52:03] <SWPadnos> I'm reasonably sure it won't matter - I'm not sure I'd have room to use it anyway
[04:52:14] <SWPadnos> it would be interesting to get it working though
[04:53:08] <steve_stallings> OK, here is a link to the style of stand I remember, but it does not jive with what SWP bought, so..... http://www.kitmondo.com/ViewListing.aspx?lid=145228&prodName=HARDINGE_AHC
[04:54:01] <SWPadnos> nope
[04:54:23] <SWPadnos> do those things come in sections?
[04:54:32] <SWPadnos> it's possible that there's a section and a stand missing
[05:02:44] <jmkasunich> a stand anyway
[05:11:53] <steve_stallings> so far I have failed to find photos of a setup similar to SWP's, however I did hit this excellent document from Hardinge about collets, feeders, pullers etc.
[05:11:57] <steve_stallings> http://www.hardingetooling.com/usr/PDFfiles/2316.pdf
[05:12:57] <jmkasunich> nice
[05:14:04] <SWPadnos> oooh
[05:14:12] <SWPadnos> it starts with the word "basic" - perfect for me :)
[05:16:58] <steve_stallings> OK, here is a photo with the two stands, but still not one with the tripod like SWP's http://inv.camachinery.com/q/webinv/001307=p,4666,0B1120,,list,,,20115009,,
[05:17:26] <jmkasunich> the base style is probably not a big deal
[05:17:32] <jmkasunich> I'm just trying to figure out how it is used
[05:17:47] <jmkasunich> obviously the end with the long "tray" can slide, and it pivots around the other end
[05:18:00] <jmkasunich> which end faces the lathe?
[05:18:28] <steve_stallings> me too... bar feeders are available that push with hydraulics, air, and gravity using a cable
[05:18:31] <jmkasunich> maybe the sliding end? slide forward, insert bar from headstock end of tube, slide back to align with spindle bore
[05:19:37] <steve_stallings> seem likely, that explains the wide support for the tube
[05:20:46] <steve_stallings> then my guess would be that these are pneumatic feeds and the missing stand has the valve and regulator for the air to push the stock
[05:23:01] <steve_stallings> where is RayH when you need him?
[05:23:16] <SWPadnos> away, it seems
[05:23:56] <jmkasunich> steve_stallings: the ebay pic shows some claptrap on that stand
[05:24:30] <SWPadnos> it does look like there's a hose, and it's the part with the slide on it
[05:27:39] <steve_stallings> URL again please...
[05:27:50] <SWPadnos> one sec
[05:27:54] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/images/products/21-211-041.jpg
[05:28:05] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320274513641
[05:29:56] <steve_stallings> not sure what I am seeing, it does seem that there is a clamp or something to hold the tube to the left side of the support tray
[05:30:26] <jmkasunich> the tube itself has an oiler attached to the side, about 1/3 of the way from one end
[05:30:32] <steve_stallings> is the other stuff on the stand or on the lathe behind it?
[05:30:37] <jmkasunich> I didn't look closer, couldn't say if both ends are open
[05:30:58] <jmkasunich> I think its on the stand
[05:31:21] <jmkasunich> the only thing that sticks out of the lathe past the chip guard is the air chuck union, and that is only about 2"
[05:31:41] <jmkasunich> it's also at the spindle center height, and the claptrap in the pic is clearly lower
[05:31:48] <steve_stallings> logic would seem to be that there is a plug in the tube that is pushed by air and it in turn pushes the stock
[05:32:20] <steve_stallings> oil in the tube would probably be used to make a seal around plug to retain air pressure
[05:32:36] <jmkasunich> and to ease friction between tube and workpiece
[05:32:57] <steve_stallings> returning the plug to the start position would be just push the stock into the tube
[05:34:24] <steve_stallings> feed would be apply air for a moment and let a stop on the tooling plate arrest the motion
[05:35:20] <SWPadnos> the other way to do it is to do what cradek does: pull the stock with the cutoff tool :)
[05:35:30] <steve_stallings> alternative for those without room for a long stock feeder is to pull the stock
[05:36:01] <SWPadnos> bar feeders sure have changed in 20-30 years: http://www.haascnc.com/MAIN_high-prod_ServoBar.asp#highprod
[05:36:07] <steve_stallings> use a short, 12" - 18" support tube to keep the stock from whipping on the outboard end of the headstock
[05:37:05] <steve_stallings> there are lots of friction based or coolant pressure activated pullers
[05:37:41] <jmkasunich> cradek cuts a shallow groove with the parting tool, then uses the tool to drag the stock, then finishes parting
[05:38:51] <steve_stallings> OK for stock large enough to take a groove and provided you can afford to waste a short bit of stock to cut off after pulling
[05:39:16] <SWPadnos> no, he uses the same groove as the parting tool makes
[05:39:40] <SWPadnos> cut a little, stop the spindle, open collet, pull, close collet, start spindle, continue parting
[05:39:41] <jmkasunich> he pulls for the next part before cutting off the last part
[05:40:22] <steve_stallings> unless the finished piece is short, it must be cut off and a new groove used to pull, else the cutoff is too far from the collet and it will chatter
[05:40:34] <jmkasunich> it was a short part
[05:40:40] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuOZutnjTk
[05:42:14] <steve_stallings> OK, if it works, don't knock it.. 8-)
[05:42:22] <SWPadnos> :)
[05:43:09] <steve_stallings> Cradek needs a CNC coolant hose positioner 8-)
[05:43:59] <steve_stallings> much like Stewarts two arm tool changer
[05:44:36] <jmkasunich> the pull is at 4:09
[05:46:30] <steve_stallings> still a lot of "stick out" for a cutoff operation in my opinion
[05:46:40] <jmkasunich> I think it is aluminum
[05:47:00] <steve_stallings> that does help
[05:47:14] <SWPadnos> this does show the bar flying out to an end stop on teh turret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrurHT_Klm0
[05:49:38] <SWPadnos> and there's a facing tool that's presumably justa tad closer to the collet, so they pop the bar out, then face it off, using one turret position
[05:49:40] <steve_stallings> yes, this is typically how a bar feeder is used, sometimes they even use rotating stops so the stock continues to rotate while being fed
[05:50:50] <jmkasunich> I get the impression in that vid that the bar never stops spinning
[05:50:54] <steve_stallings> looks like this guy gets lots of curly swarf in his parts catcher 8-)
[05:51:02] <SWPadnos> and oul
[05:51:03] <SWPadnos> oil
[05:51:25] <steve_stallings> yes, but the oil probably does not jam the chute
[05:55:15] <steve_stallings> OT - amazing what they used to accomplish with just cams and micrometer stops - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rgGPT5vW8&feature=related
[05:57:46] <SWPadnos> yeah, no kidding
[06:04:12] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[06:04:20] <SWPadnos> oh. good plan
[06:04:46] <steve_stallings> suits me too, yawn...
[06:05:10] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[12:54:20] <BigJohnT> the HAL_User_Manual.pdf is not in my usr/share/doc/emc2 directory but the HAL_User_Manual_fr.pdf is... Anyone know why it is missing?
[12:54:41] <BigJohnT> I looked in the submakefile and all seems to be correct there...
[12:57:17] <alex_joni> any errors from the build?
[12:57:50] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/old-www/irclogs/2004/%23emc.freenode.20040718.log <- stumbled upon my first visit to #emc ;)
[12:58:21] <BigJohnT> not that I know of it is the original install on this computer
[13:00:35] <BigJohnT> same on my 8.04 computer...
[13:01:01] <alex_joni> oh, hmm
[13:01:11] <alex_joni> with 2.2.7 ?
[13:01:29] <BigJohnT> yes
[13:01:39] <alex_joni> looking at the deb now
[13:01:49] <alex_joni> (sizewise I don't see anything strange..)
[13:03:09] <BigJohnT> I want to add it to the menu
[13:03:46] <alex_joni> it seems you're correct
[13:03:49] <alex_joni> let me try to fix that
[13:04:22] <BigJohnT> ok, cool
[13:04:46] <BigJohnT> will you add it to the menu also?
[13:05:07] <alex_joni> if you insist :D
[13:05:23] <BigJohnT> Oh, I insist :)
[13:05:44] <alex_joni> ok then, since you're the docs doc I'll do it in a sec.
[13:05:59] <BigJohnT> thanks :)
[13:10:36] <alex_joni> the hostmot 2 updates are a bit large :)
[13:16:41] <alex_joni> yay, got an slight internet connection upgrade
[13:16:43] <alex_joni> http://www.speedtest.net/result/372138814.png
[13:31:53] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT is fast today at 49.2Kbps
[13:32:46] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: will do the hal manual later.. hope that's ok
[13:33:26] <BigJohnT> will it be in the 2.2.8?
[13:33:46] <alex_joni> sure.. I
[13:33:55] <alex_joni> sure.. I'll ask jepler to wait a bit for me :)
[13:34:12] <BigJohnT> ok, thanks
[13:35:49] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: you didn't add the keystick doc to the html index page
[13:36:13] <BigJohnT> alex_joni: ok, I'll fix that
[13:47:09] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: seems someone purposedly removed the HAL_User_Manual.pdf
[13:47:15] <alex_joni> check debian/rules.in
[13:47:35] <alex_joni> (rm debian/tmp/usr/share/doc/emc2/HAL_User_Manual.pdf)
[13:47:42] <alex_joni> take it up with jepler to see why ..
[13:48:20] <BigJohnT> ok, I think the HAL manual should be seperate from the Integrators manual
[13:48:45] <BigJohnT> that would help shorten up the Integrators manual quite a bit
[13:48:56] <alex_joni> it is..
[13:49:04] <alex_joni> the integrators manual only contains the relevant parts
[13:49:10] <alex_joni> and I think it should stay like that
[13:49:33] <BigJohnT> yes the parts relevent to EMC should be in the integrators manual
[13:49:54] <alex_joni> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/lxr/source/debian/rules.in#073
[13:50:02] <alex_joni> (I'm outta here.. bbl)
[13:50:07] <BigJohnT> ok
[13:52:12] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT kicks CIA-42
[13:58:10] <BigJohnT> in trunk do I need to add anything to this? "TLO_IS_ALONG_W = 1 Moves the tool length offset from Z to W."
[13:58:23] <BigJohnT> before I commit it...
[14:39:17] <jepler> last I knew, the hal manual was repeated in its entirety in the integrator manual. so there was no point in having both
[14:39:33] <jepler> the mpurpose of the hal manual is for the nearly-mythical person who wants hal without emc
[14:39:38] <jepler> s/mpur/pur/
[14:39:59] <jepler> if that's changed, then remove the line that removes the pdf, and add the right line to emc2.files.in for it
[16:43:46] <skunkworks> wow - I need to make a minimum of 13 of these h-bridges just for our own tinkering.
[16:44:02] <skunkworks> (when the bugs are worked out)
[16:49:16] <CIA-42> EMC: 03bigjohnt 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/ladder/images/ (Config-com.png Config-io.png): add modbus config images
[16:49:16] <CIA-42> EMC: 03bigjohnt 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/ladder/classic_ladder.lyx: add info on modbus
[17:07:55] <cradek> skunkworks: is that enough to justify having the boards made?
[17:09:17] <skunkworks> heh - I don't know yet. I would actually have to get some quotes. :)
[17:09:44] <skunkworks> If I had a smaller faster machine - I would not mind milling them if they worked.
[17:11:18] <skunkworks> more projects :) - keeps me out of trouble.
[17:12:21] <skunkworks> that is 3 axis mill, puma robot, 2 lathes. Not including some other projects.
[17:13:37] <skunkworks> cradek: your eagle script with tool length probing makes circuit board making easy.
[17:14:44] <cradek> I should unfiveaxisify max and put the new engraving spindle on it...
[17:14:58] <cradek> with probing I wouldn't need the tool holders that go with the old spindle anymore.
[17:19:18] <skunkworks> yes - I just touchoff the first tool - the rest work great.
[17:21:13] <skunkworks> I thought you can just pawn off your board work on jepler :)
[17:21:46] <cradek> I know he'd be happy to do boards for me, but I don't know if he's quite happy with his results yet.
[17:22:04] <cradek> currently I need to make a run of cat collar tags. One of the twerps keeps losing his.
[17:22:40] <cradek> there's an engraving machine at the pet store that makes them, but we're tired of putting money in it.
[17:25:34] <skunkworks> heh
[17:26:25] <skunkworks> We have stopped making our cats wear them... (against my better judgment). One came back with his leg thru it also (stretchy ones)
[17:27:13] <cradek> we use the breakaway kind in case they get caught. I don't know if he's getting caught on a lot of stuff, or pulls them off.
[17:27:38] <skunkworks> now though - the grandparents (what we call our neighbors) pretty much have adopted our 2 toms. so they spend a bunch of time over there also. (less outside then they used to)
[17:28:00] <skunkworks> (they have it pretty good) :)
[17:30:59] <skunkworks> you need some sort of tracking chip on the collars
[17:31:24] <cradek> yeah, I would love to see where they go anyway.
[17:32:07] <skunkworks> we always thought it would be fun to have a howie cam :)
[20:11:30] <alex_joni> jepler: I had a HAL only project a couple years ago
[20:11:39] <alex_joni> it used a GUI + HAL components
[20:15:23] <SWPadnos> same here, minus the GUI :)
[20:15:45] <SWPadnos> though I did use halscope and halmeter a lot
[20:18:17] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: hello fellow nearly-mythical person
[20:18:32] <SWPadnos> greetings
[20:21:04] <skunkworks> ?
[20:28:37] <alex_joni> skunkworks: inside joke :P
[20:28:53] <alex_joni> 16:36 < jepler> the mpurpose of the hal manual is for the nearly-mythical
[20:28:53] <alex_joni> person who wants hal without emc
[20:30:54] <skunkworks> ah :)