#emc-devel | Logs for 2007-12-19

[07:39:18] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[11:25:14] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hugs CIA-20
[12:34:20] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[16:20:19] <alex_joni> * alex_joni kicks CIA-20
[16:22:27] <alex_joni> 'lo
[16:33:48] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: feel free to attempt to try to implement that
[16:34:03] <SWPadnos> so you didn't have to stop the motion queue unless the interp got to someplace where it needs the value, and sees that it doesn't have it yet :)
[16:34:06] <SWPadnos> har har :)
[16:34:16] <rayh> I'
[16:34:21] <SWPadnos> me too
[16:34:23] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: next step would be branch predictions
[16:34:31] <rayh> d need a var for each axis and then MDI is history.
[16:34:32] <alex_joni> and other CPU-like improvements
[16:34:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:35:09] <alex_joni> out-of-order optimisation
[16:35:09] <alex_joni> :D
[16:35:10] <SWPadnos> how about simultaneous execution units?
[16:35:19] <alex_joni> like XYZ and UVW?
[16:35:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:35:24] <alex_joni> ROFL
[16:35:50] <rayh> I always wanted something like x2*#y
[16:36:18] <SWPadnos> x[2*#y]
[16:36:54] <alex_joni> ha.. link axis.1.pos-fb to motion.analog-input-01
[16:36:58] <alex_joni> M66 E1
[16:37:01] <alex_joni> and presto :D
[16:37:21] <alex_joni> (but without offsets & all that g-code crap)
[16:38:04] <SWPadnos> hey ray, and probably jmkasunich, I may need to ask you guys some questions about the prehistory and history of EMC on Linux to prepare for my ESC talk
[16:38:09] <SWPadnos> in the next month or so
[16:38:41] <jmkasunich> sure... my history only goes back to 2003 or so.
[16:38:47] <alex_joni> you can also ask JonE .. I think he also has some history
[16:38:51] <SWPadnos> then again, you wrote aRTAPI, right? :)
[16:38:55] <SWPadnos> yep that's true
[16:38:59] <SWPadnos> -a
[16:39:02] <rayh> * rayh has old-timers and a rose colored history filter
[16:39:06] <jmkasunich> fred wrote the original, I modified it
[16:39:07] <SWPadnos> perfect
[16:39:10] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[16:39:21] <SWPadnos> I should email him too, once I figure out what I want to ask/say :)
[16:39:35] <alex_joni> maybe ask him what to say?
[16:39:41] <SWPadnos> oh, good idea
[16:39:54] <jmkasunich> rayh: after four years of "working" on my CNC conversion, it moved under computer control for the first time the other day
[16:40:10] <rayh> AWESOME!
[16:40:13] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: forgot to congrat you on that..
[16:40:18] <alex_joni> saw it on your blog today..
[16:40:23] <jmkasunich> so far lathe only, haven't mounted or wired the Z motor yet
[16:40:57] <SWPadnos> heh - that's almost inspiring enough for me to brave the cold in the garage to work on mine :)
[16:41:01] <jmkasunich> s/Z/quill
[16:41:10] <rayh> That is a great feeling when it happens.
[16:41:15] <jmkasunich> brrrr - nothing could be that inspiring
[16:41:19] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:41:25] <SWPadnos> it's up into the 20s I think
[16:41:39] <rayh> At -15f it takes a bit of courage.
[16:41:43] <SWPadnos> oh my god - it's freezing here!
[16:41:47] <SWPadnos> balmy
[16:42:32] <jmkasunich> today's mission is to get the spindle motor contactors hooked up
[16:42:34] <rayh> Had to go out to the shed and pick up some acme. It turned white when I got it in the basememt.
[16:43:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:43:09] <jmkasunich> that is the "don't touch me if you want to keep your skin" warning
[16:43:11] <rayh> Is this mesa connected, John?
[16:43:21] <alex_joni> parport so far :)
[16:43:22] <jmkasunich> rayh: not yet
[16:43:36] <rayh> It was calling out, "lick me quick."
[16:43:45] <rayh> parport?
[16:43:49] <jmkasunich> yes
[16:43:56] <rayh> What breakout?
[16:44:46] <jmkasunich> a surplus db-25 to 25 screws thing with no circuitry, plus a perfboard that I made yesterday with two relays, three optos, and a charge pump
[16:44:52] <jmkasunich> haven't wired in the perf yet
[16:45:21] <SWPadnos> rayh, hmmm - that brings up an interesting question - do you have a "favorite" parport breakout?
[16:45:32] <SWPadnos> or least favorite, as the case may be :)
[16:46:02] <SWPadnos> I've talked to a couple of people lately who were looking for breakouts, and there always seems to be some deficiency
[16:46:04] <alex_joni> from pictures I like the pdmx one that sits on geckos
[16:46:12] <SWPadnos> that's great for steppers :)
[16:46:18] <rayh> That's what the solder fumes comments were about. Good on you, John. That's how I did my first ones.
[16:47:00] <rayh> I used the gecko pmdx on Smithy's new desktop mills.
[16:47:10] <rayh> I like it.
[16:47:27] <SWPadnos> seems like that one saves quite a bit of wiring
[16:47:28] <rayh> If you use gecko drives.
[16:47:43] <rayh> and don't care about gecko's shifting definition of fault.
[16:47:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:48:37] <SWPadnos> the older drives still have the same fault output though, right> it's just the 203V that has a different function?
[16:48:42] <SWPadnos> s/>/?/
[16:49:03] <rayh> No some 2xx had a fault output some didn't.
[16:50:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm. maybe the G202/G212 had a new scheme
[16:50:40] <alex_joni> bbl.. really need to crash now
[16:51:36] <rayh> see you alex
[16:51:57] <rayh> Favorite breakout.
[16:52:12] <jmkasunich> I'm the eternal optimist - I've already started collecting parts for my next project
[16:52:13] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/newparts.jpg
[16:52:20] <rayh> passive with a pci parport card
[16:52:40] <jmkasunich> (only 82k pic for those with slow wires)
[16:52:53] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: what is the servo going to be used for? spindle?
[16:52:57] <jmkasunich> yep
[16:53:01] <rayh> That'll take 5 minutes!
[16:53:01] <skunkworks> cool
[16:53:05] <jmkasunich> its 1kw continuous at 5000 rpm
[16:53:25] <jmkasunich> the table is 12 x 24" and 125 lbs
[16:53:38] <jmkasunich> I'm hoping to make a bridge mill of sorts, and have it come apart
[16:53:52] <jmkasunich> so the biggest chunk will be base/table, at maybe 150-175
[16:54:02] <jmkasunich> so I can bring it to the CNC workshop
[16:54:10] <jmkasunich> not in 2008 tho
[16:54:13] <rayh> bridge or gantry?
[16:54:23] <jmkasunich> whats the diff?
[16:54:35] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking stationary table and moving bridge
[16:54:40] <rayh> bridge -- x slides under
[16:54:45] <jmkasunich> ah
[16:55:02] <jmkasunich> that would take almost twice the bench space, so I was thinking the other way
[16:55:08] <rayh> gantry is a stationary table.
[16:55:24] <jmkasunich> gantry then, although nothing is cast in stone
[16:55:43] <rayh> That way you just add the width of the gantry to the length of x
[16:55:55] <rayh> Good plan.
[16:56:20] <rayh> How much Z you thinking?
[16:56:30] <jmkasunich> I saw a mill on the net that did moving table, but they moved it the short way
[16:56:38] <jmkasunich> I'd like about 10"
[16:57:36] <skunkworks> a vote - stationary table with slides mounted to the long direction.
[16:57:56] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: thats the current plan
[16:58:02] <rayh> Yep
[16:58:04] <jmkasunich> might put them right on the side of the table
[16:58:16] <rayh> medium sized thompson linear rail.
[16:58:25] <rayh> hanging over a couple inches on each end.
[16:58:36] <jmkasunich> I have 8 THK SR20 slides (no rail) already
[16:58:57] <jmkasunich> I think its sr20, maybe hr20?
[16:59:02] <rayh> and about 5" between slides
[16:59:20] <jmkasunich> yep
[16:59:49] <jmkasunich> I wonder if I need two screws for a span that short (probably about 14" with the rails)
[16:59:55] <jmkasunich> I've been assuming I do
[17:01:12] <rayh> I most always err on the side of too heavy.
[17:01:17] <jmkasunich> me too
[17:01:26] <skunkworks> I would.. either 2 motors or a nice timing belt.
[17:01:36] <jmkasunich> if I didn't have the desire to take the machine to CNC workshop, I'd be erring on the side of way to heavy
[17:01:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:02:06] <rayh> Yep.
[17:02:13] <jmkasunich> for the gantry, I've been toying with the idea of doing it like a planer - the crossarm moves up and down
[17:02:39] <jmkasunich> that way when you are cutting 3" above the table, Z isn't sticking down 10" from a bridge that is up 13"
[17:03:01] <jmkasunich> of course that would mean two screws for Z as well
[17:03:04] <SWPadnos> that'll need two screws, I think
[17:03:04] <rayh> A guy named tony used to hang around here.
[17:03:15] <rayh> He and I built a bridge router that way.
[17:03:21] <rayh> Worked a treat.
[17:03:35] <jmkasunich> stiffer than traditional bridge routers?
[17:03:38] <rayh> Single motor and timing belts.
[17:04:46] <jmkasunich> the part that currently has me stumped is B - I want to be able to tilt the spindle, so it can be a vertical, horiz, or anywhere in between
[17:05:03] <jmkasunich> I like horizontal for work that allows it - very nice chip clearing
[17:05:29] <cradek> are you going to make a setup just like max?
[17:05:41] <jmkasunich> sort of
[17:06:02] <jmkasunich> actually, I think I'd try to do AC, not BC
[17:06:22] <jmkasunich> wait, thats wrong
[17:06:36] <jmkasunich> I want BC
[17:06:53] <jmkasunich> but my support is to the left (or right) of the spindle, not behind it like max
[17:07:08] <SWPadnos> AC should allow the same geometry as BC, shouldn't it?
[17:07:18] <cradek> yes you need any two rotaries
[17:07:27] <SWPadnos> except you rotate the support rail
[17:07:34] <SWPadnos> (in this configuration anyway)
[17:07:36] <cradek> you just have to mount the work differently
[17:07:51] <cradek> A can be vertical rotary on the table
[17:08:10] <SWPadnos> or in this case, "nod" of the head
[17:08:15] <SWPadnos> front-back tilt
[17:08:16] <cradek> yes
[17:08:34] <jmkasunich> this gets confusing because even X and Y aren't well defined yet
[17:08:39] <jmkasunich> traditionally X is the long axis
[17:08:39] <SWPadnos> that's a big motor though, a table-mounted rotary is probably easier
[17:08:54] <jmkasunich> but for a bridge machine, you typically stand at one end, not the side of the table
[17:09:11] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: good point about the motor - I'm not committed to it yet
[17:09:23] <SWPadnos> it seems big for a small machine :)
[17:09:24] <jmkasunich> I'd REALLY like to be able to tilt the spindle
[17:09:38] <jmkasunich> I already had it, so it is my current leading candidate
[17:09:39] <SWPadnos> yeah, similar to the bridgeport head adjustments
[17:09:45] <jmkasunich> but I'm keeping my eyes open
[17:09:58] <jmkasunich> I don't really need a kilowatt I don't think
[17:10:06] <cradek> AC trunion seems easy to build
[17:10:18] <cradek> you need plenty of Z travel though
[17:10:25] <jmkasunich> cradek: I'd need another rotary
[17:10:30] <SWPadnos> ebay often has AC servomotors/drives cheap - like $100-200, in the 400-watt range
[17:10:31] <jmkasunich> and that still means vertical spindle
[17:10:44] <jmkasunich> I like the idea of a horizontal spindle so the chips clear nicely
[17:10:54] <SWPadnos> the Yaskawa drives can do position or velocoty control, so they could be used for a spindle
[17:10:58] <SWPadnos> velocity
[17:11:08] <jmkasunich> thats why I was asking you about them last night
[17:11:11] <SWPadnos> yep
[17:11:14] <jmkasunich> then you mentioned the price
[17:11:20] <SWPadnos> the ones I have are 50 and 200 watt, so a bit small
[17:11:37] <jmkasunich> so far, I have $50 in the table, $40 in the slides, $150 in the rotary (bought that years ago), and $0 in the motor
[17:12:02] <cradek> I don't see why AC trunion means you need a vertical spindle
[17:12:06] <jmkasunich> I know its gonna cost a lot more before I'm done - $hundreds in screws and linear rails
[17:12:30] <cradek> with a horizontal spindle it would be very nice to rotate A90 and mount the part sitting flat
[17:13:01] <jmkasunich> cradek: if I want to do a largish flat part (3axis), I want to be able to remove the rotary and attach it to the table
[17:13:10] <jmkasunich> (like a 10 x 20 panel or something)
[17:13:12] <cradek> ah
[17:13:20] <SWPadnos> 9 minutes to go: http://cgi.ebay.com/YASKAWA-SGDH-04AE-SERVOPACK-LOT-OF-2_W0QQitemZ280183451139QQihZ018QQcategoryZ78191QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[17:13:23] <cradek> you 'only' need a big angle plate
[17:13:43] <jmkasunich> and matching Z travel
[17:13:53] <jmkasunich> the angle plate would be the heaviest single part then
[17:13:59] <SWPadnos> hmmm. maybe I should buy those - they're useful for the disc motors as well
[17:14:53] <jmkasunich> I wonder how much spindle power I really "need"
[17:15:04] <SWPadnos> well, that depends ... ;)
[17:15:09] <jmkasunich> no matter what you have, theres always a part or cut that wants more
[17:15:14] <SWPadnos> yep
[17:15:23] <jmkasunich> but for real heavy stuff, I have the van norman with the 5-1/2" face mill
[17:15:27] <SWPadnos> and then there's all that titanium you want to mill
[17:15:35] <jmkasunich> so I don't thing this machine needs to swing anything large
[17:16:06] <jmkasunich> I am interested in small tools - I want to go all the way up to PC board milling stuff, which will require a very fast spindle
[17:16:16] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking belt driven from the main spindle
[17:16:21] <jmkasunich> I think I have a visitor, back soon
[17:29:59] <jmkasunich> back
[17:30:20] <jmkasunich> that was my carpenter/magician friend, picking up his most recent gimmick
[17:44:24] <skunkworks> Sworn to secrecy - right? ;)
[17:44:40] <jmkasunich> not really
[17:44:59] <jmkasunich> he uses tools for props
[17:45:10] <jmkasunich> he gave me a 3/8 fender washer
[17:45:33] <jmkasunich> and I made a new one that is a tiny bit bigger and a tiny bit thicker, that the real one nests inside of
[17:46:03] <jmkasunich> about 0.010 wall thickness
[17:47:03] <skunkworks> nice. that is a pain to hold.. did you make the reccess/hole - then cut the outside diameter
[17:47:29] <jmkasunich> no, did the OD first, then stuck it in a soft collet that I bored to fit
[17:48:03] <skunkworks> ah
[17:48:22] <jmkasunich> fortunately the new part is just a tiny bit bigger than the last thing I used that soft collet for
[20:07:22] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hugs CIA-20
[20:07:23] <CIA-20> * CIA-20 hugs alex_joni
[20:08:29] <cradek> if only we would all return hugs but not kicks
[20:10:01] <alex_joni> ??
[20:10:19] <cradek> * cradek kicks CIA-20
[20:10:21] <CIA-20> ow
[20:10:30] <alex_joni> poor bot :)
[20:14:32] <alex_joni> * alex_joni rubs CIA-20's tummy
[20:14:32] <CIA-20> *purr*
[20:15:04] <cradek> ok that's getting a little strange
[20:16:13] <alex_joni> * alex_joni eats CIA-20
[20:16:14] <CIA-20> * CIA-20 tastes crunchy
[20:16:17] <alex_joni> :P
[20:16:22] <alex_joni> * alex_joni stops now
[20:16:51] <alex_joni> you can still 'kill' it :)
[20:18:18] <jmkasunich> strange
[20:23:12] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: what people do for fun :)
[20:23:58] <BearPerson> ancient remains from when cia was a smaller project ;)
[20:24:52] <jmkasunich> so those responses aren't ales hijacking cia? they're built into the bot?
[20:25:12] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: you think I would do that?
[20:25:15] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich hits CIA-20
[20:25:24] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich kicks CIA-20
[20:25:24] <CIA-20> ow
[20:25:30] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: http://cia-vc.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/cia/LibCIA/IRC/Bots.py
[20:29:28] <BearPerson> great, that means I'll soon have to disable those things because everyone keeps messing around with it ;)
[20:30:34] <jmkasunich> BearPerson: you are a member of the CIA project?
[20:30:54] <BearPerson> depends on how you look at it, but I guess it's mostly a yes by now
[20:31:05] <jmkasunich> cool - its a really nice tool
[20:31:23] <BearPerson> I hope I got rid of most of the basic bot trouble
[20:31:27] <alex_joni> * alex_joni votes for yes :)
[20:32:35] <alex_joni> bbl
[20:32:53] <jmkasunich> I've been lying to CIA for a long time now
[20:33:07] <BearPerson> how so? :)
[20:33:16] <jmkasunich> I'm running the emc compile farm, and when a build fails, I send a message to CIA so it pops up here
[20:33:31] <jmkasunich> its not really a commit, but I fake it with the content that I want to appear on channel
[20:35:11] <BearPerson> hmm, interesting approach
[20:35:19] <BearPerson> I should turn that into a feature sometime ;)
[20:36:13] <jmkasunich> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/infrastructure/farm-scripts/results_cia?rev=1.3
[20:36:22] <jmkasunich> that is what I'm using today
[20:38:05] <jmkasunich> if CIA wanted to support an "announce" message (or something along those lines) in addition to the "commit" messages it supports now, I'd change my scripts to use it
[20:38:24] <cradek> jmkasunich: the one good thing I can say about your script is that it works
[20:38:34] <jmkasunich> the only good thing?
[20:39:44] <cradek> wellll
[20:39:53] <cradek> what is IMAGE, ALTTEXT, etc?
[20:40:21] <jmkasunich> ?
[20:40:29] <jmkasunich> where are you seeing that?
[20:40:34] <cradek> IMAGE=pass.png
[20:40:52] <jmkasunich> oh, those images are the check or X on the web view
[20:41:37] <jmkasunich> I thought you were looking at results_cia
[20:41:53] <jmkasunich> the webpage uses server side includes to stick the results into the main page
[20:42:07] <cradek> that is results_cia
[20:42:17] <BearPerson> results_cia has some remnants of that code lying around, though it obviously doesn't do much
[20:42:27] <jmkasunich> duh
[20:42:46] <jmkasunich> warning warning copy-paste coding detected!
[20:42:52] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich fixes
[20:42:53] <cradek> ha
[20:44:56] <CIA-20> EMC: 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10infrastructure/farm-scripts/results_cia: removed some leftover code
[20:45:47] <BearPerson> looks like commits are working, too.
[20:46:26] <alex_joni> BearPerson: yup, for now it's all good
[20:46:33] <alex_joni> will bug you when it stops
[20:46:36] <alex_joni> s/when/if/
[20:46:38] <CIA-20> EMC: 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10infrastructure/farm-scripts/results_list: removed some more leftover code
[20:46:39] <BearPerson> good, thanks :)
[20:46:56] <alex_joni> haha: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=393680&cid=21751128
[20:57:18] <cradek> jmkasunich: now if you could only make our naive cvs server not send the same cia message for each directory of a big commit
[20:57:40] <cradek> oh wait that's my abominati^Wbaby^Wfault
[20:59:02] <cradek> BearPerson: do many other cia users have that problem, or do you know?
[20:59:19] <BearPerson> "that problem" ?
[20:59:24] <cradek> (cvs is pretty bad at this)
[20:59:49] <BearPerson> ah, hmm
[20:59:58] <cradek> every directory you touch with a cvs commit runs the "loginfo" program once. with a naive cia message generator, you can get several at once
[21:00:05] <BearPerson> indeed, that does explain some problem reports I got earlier
[21:00:29] <cradek> logger_dev: bookmark
[21:00:29] <cradek> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2007-12-19.txt
[21:00:56] <cradek> not sure if I can find one quickly in our logs
[21:01:12] <BearPerson> I'm guessing it would be most elegantly solved inside the cvs commit hook, will have to see when I get around to looking at that
[21:01:23] <SWPadnos> since we're on the topic, do you guys know which part of the process generates email subjects with tabs/carriage returns in them?
[21:02:11] <SWPadnos> the 12/11 log should have a bunch from Francis Tisserant
[21:02:11] <cradek> clearly not cia
[21:02:55] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2007-12-11.txt
[21:03:01] <SWPadnos> look around 14:35
[21:03:37] <cradek> that's a good example
[21:06:22] <cradek> I wonder if esmtp wraps the subject (and maybe other headers)
[21:06:40] <cradek> my mailer doesn't care, it does the right thing. yours has problems with this?
[21:06:42] <SWPadnos> could be
[21:06:52] <SWPadnos> it looks ugly in the message list :)
[21:06:53] <cradek> (wrapping headers is perfectly fine I think)
[21:07:04] <SWPadnos> it's GUI mozilla, not a text terminal app
[21:07:26] <SWPadnos> I uploaded some images a long time ago (when the CVS move was being done, I think)
[21:07:46] <cradek> mutt shows the split header in the message itself, but in the message list it unwraps it and shows as much as fits across the terminal
[21:08:22] <SWPadnos> http://www.cncgear.com/images/YuckyTabs2.jpg
[21:08:49] <cradek> those are from sourceforge...
[21:08:59] <SWPadnos> same thing happens with CIA messages
[21:09:08] <cradek> I recommend getting a better mailreader
[21:09:12] <SWPadnos> :P
[21:09:17] <cradek> no, really
[21:09:20] <SWPadnos> what could be better than Mozilla? :)
[21:14:38] <jepler> mailman, the mailing list software, wraps long header lines because some RFC says there is a maximum and recommends to keep them under a certain width.
[21:15:12] <cradek> SWPadnos: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html see 2.2.2 and 2.2.3
[21:15:18] <SWPadnos> I'd think that same RFC would say that carriage returns aren't valid, but that's probbly wishful thinking
[21:15:27] <jepler> at least in older versions, my mutt would show the wrap as "?" instead of a whitespace; it would also disturb the thread view because it though the various slightly-different wrappings were distinct subject lines..
[21:15:27] <cradek> SWPadnos: ^^^
[21:17:30] <SWPadnos> ah ok. I should see if it's possible to look at enough of the Mozilla code to understand where to put the s/\r// expression :)
[21:17:41] <SWPadnos> thanks
[21:17:59] <cradek> it will still have whitespace you may or may not want to keep
[21:18:36] <SWPadnos> true, I guess something that collapses any whitespace group containing a CR into a single space would be better
[21:18:51] <cradek> Each line of characters ... SHOULD be no more than 78 characters
[21:19:22] <SWPadnos> right, and MUST be no more than 998
[21:19:30] <cradek> which is pretty funny
[21:19:58] <SWPadnos> yeah, considering that some computers hardly had enough RAM to hold a 1k line :)
[21:21:55] <cradek> well rfc2822 is from 2001...
[21:22:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:22:14] <SWPadnos> the 78 character limit is really hilarious anyway
[21:22:26] <SWPadnos> it's not like you're going to "print" an email onto a punched card
[21:22:53] <SWPadnos> and Windows has the only console that can't do anything other than 80 (and possibly 40) columns
[21:22:55] <cradek> "to accomodate ... user interfaces"
[21:23:30] <cradek> any old laser printer will truncate those lines too ...
[21:24:06] <cradek> personally I think mozilla's freakout behavior is funnier than the rfc :-)
[21:24:26] <SWPadnos> yeah, it is a bit strange
[21:24:48] <SWPadnos> if they'd just print the wide characters in white instead of black, it would look more or less OK
[21:25:52] <cradek> looks like 'yahoo mail' and 'pegasus' are the only remaining programs used to post to our lists that are too stupid to get threading right
[21:26:08] <SWPadnos> wow, pegasus
[21:26:15] <SWPadnos> haven't heard that name in a while
[21:27:14] <cradek> last night I switched my mom from eudora to gmail. remains to be seen whether that was a good idea.
[21:28:28] <cradek> BearPerson: did you say that people report cvs's behavior of multiple messages as a cia bug?
[21:28:32] <SWPadnos> yrah. it's hard to know if the web-centricity of gmail is a good or a bad thing
[21:29:09] <BearPerson> well, I remember people asking if I knew why cia sometimes "reported commits several times"
[21:29:17] <cradek> ah
[21:29:24] <cradek> that sure could be it
[21:29:32] <BearPerson> not sure how proficient they were with cvs and therefore the exact source of the problem
[21:30:00] <cradek> many cvs loginfo implementations rely on timing hackery (all commits within so many seconds get grouped together) and that is obviously fragile
[21:30:27] <cradek> it's definitely cvs's problem but it would be nice if you could do something easy in cia anyway
[21:30:55] <BearPerson> not sure what we could do in cia that couldn't be done in a commit hook
[21:31:18] <cradek> I see it already has queueing and flood protection
[21:31:56] <cradek> well in our situation, cvs is run inside a very tight chroot for security reasons. The ability to do something complex just isn't there
[21:32:25] <cradek> the loginfo program sourceforge uses requires all of perl and temporary directories and files and who knows what else
[21:33:31] <cradek> but you are definitely right - it's not cia's fault - I'm not saying it is.
[21:34:02] <cradek> cvs is a dinosaur but a well-loved one still, it seems
[21:35:37] <BearPerson> :)
[21:36:17] <cradek> once or twice a year we have a huge battle over switching to someone else. I hope I didn't just trigger one
[21:36:30] <cradek> or, something else, you might say :-/
[21:37:30] <cradek> can you tell what percentage of cia users are using cvs?
[21:47:47] <jepler> cradek: http://cia.vc/stats/vcs
[21:48:10] <jepler> (but see caveat at left)
[21:48:55] <SWPadnos> those bars are not to scale :)
[21:49:13] <cradek> no they're definitely not
[21:49:15] <SWPadnos> unless it's an exponential scale
[21:49:43] <cradek> interesting that cvs is still the clear second
[21:50:38] <SWPadnos> heh - bitkeeper, 1.84 yeaqrs ago
[21:51:01] <SWPadnos> I guess nobody using git uses cia
[21:51:07] <cradek> no sccs? haha
[21:52:56] <alex_joni> git shows up as other
[21:53:12] <SWPadnos> ah yes, I suppose it would
[21:53:16] <alex_joni> http://cia.vc/stats/vcs/other -> check the frugalware commits from today
[21:53:46] <SWPadnos> heh - different kind of too9ltip, I imagine :)
[21:53:49] <SWPadnos> -9
[21:54:43] <jepler> http://www.linux.com/?module=comments&func=display&cid=1137476
[21:55:14] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: you think? sexy-tooltip.c sexy-tooltip.h
[21:55:38] <SWPadnos> oh man, I love your bull-nose 4-flute end mill
[21:55:41] <SWPadnos> :)
[22:02:18] <fenn> i wonder if git messages are underrepresented because they show up as change "sets" rather than, for example, a flood of cvs commits
[22:07:51] <fenn> ooo cia's search box is neato
[22:08:44] <alex_joni> yeah, it's quite nice