#emc-devel | Logs for 2007-11-15

[00:31:58] <Roguish> hello there. anyone know why there are 6 axes defined in the 5axis sim hal file?
[00:41:40] <Roguish> i do, 'cause it uses b and c axes and therefore a axis must also be defined? right?
[00:50:55] <alex_joni> right
[00:56:10] <Roguish> thought you went to sleep a few hours ago?
[04:15:56] <CIA-18> 03compile-farm 07Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (dapper) realtime (2.6.15-magma) * 10emc2.2branch/: build PASSED
[08:06:15] <alex_jon1> alex_jon1 is now known as alex_joni
[13:44:11] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/stepconf/stepconf.py: another stepconf bug squashed thanks to jlmjvm
[13:44:11] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/debian/changelog: another stepconf bug squashed thanks to jlmjvm
[14:04:50] <alex_joni> hey samco
[14:08:02] <skunkworks> alex_joni: hi. How is it going? last day of the week for me. :)
[14:11:25] <alex_joni> is tomorrow free?
[14:11:34] <alex_joni> * alex_joni made a new livecd..
[14:12:33] <skunkworks> 2.2.1? dapper?
[14:12:41] <alex_joni> yup
[14:12:59] <skunkworks> hey - just got the email :)
[14:13:01] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/43/6/lang,en/
[14:14:14] <alex_joni> juve@dsplabs:~/public_html/emc$ ls -al *.iso | wc -l
[14:14:14] <alex_joni> 15
[14:15:03] <alex_joni> bbl..
[14:17:03] <skunkworks> Great job! :)
[14:45:39] <cradek> thanks for doing that alex
[14:50:58] <skunkworks> Hi cradek
[14:51:07] <cradek> hi
[14:51:42] <skunkworks> Friday for me :)
[14:51:58] <skunkworks> oops - already said that. (not trying to rub it in) ;)
[14:52:38] <cradek> wow that would be nice...
[14:55:19] <skunkworks> How is the 5 axis sim coming?
[14:58:20] <cradek> great
[14:59:55] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/stepconf/stepconf.py: merge from branch: fix homing
[15:01:35] <skunkworks> biab
[15:15:21] <tissf> hello all
[15:20:39] <tissf> Servo-related items
[15:20:40] <tissf> The units on the I gain are volts per user <<<unit-seconds>>>.
[15:20:42] <tissf> Can someone explain the meaning of minus sign between unit and seconds? Or reformulated with letters?
[15:31:41] <cradek> I think it means it's the multiplication of those two units
[15:33:16] <cradek> like torque is newton-meter (force * distance)
[15:33:40] <cradek> often written with a -
[15:35:15] <tissf> OK Thank you
[15:45:50] <jepler> it looks like that document uses "user unit" and "machine unit" to refer to the same thing, and never gives a definition of either one.
[15:46:30] <jepler> "machine unit" makes more sense to me
[15:46:35] <jepler> opinions?
[15:52:08] <tissf> What is the difference you see between the two?
[15:52:38] <cradek> I think there is no difference
[15:52:47] <cradek> I agree machine unit is probably better
[15:52:53] <cradek> even though I'm guilty of saying 'user unit'
[15:53:40] <alex_joni> 'user unit' might refer to program units
[15:53:46] <alex_joni> e.g. G20/G21
[15:53:58] <alex_joni> so I'd say machine unit(s) sounds way better
[15:53:59] <tissf> The term "user units" recurring theme in all the documentation, it seems to me also correct.
[15:54:31] <cradek> alex_joni: I agree
[15:54:53] <cradek> we have program units, machine units, and display units
[15:55:08] <alex_joni> yeah, we should stick to those
[15:55:09] <cradek> 'user' is a term that could mean any of them
[15:56:38] <jepler> I am going to revise ini_config.lyx to use "machine units" everywhere.
[15:56:51] <alex_joni> jepler: I can do that if you like
[15:56:55] <tissf> My question was about a minus sign between the word "unit" and the word "seconds", it is not used in this case with us:)
[15:56:55] <jepler> I'm already halfway done
[15:56:59] <alex_joni> ok..
[15:57:27] <tissf> jepler: outch ! bad news
[15:57:27] <alex_joni> tissf: I think it either refers to units/seconds or units*seconds depending on context
[15:58:37] <cradek> I think usually *
[15:58:43] <jepler> in the original text tissf asked about, does it mean volt / (millimeter second) if machine units are millimeters?
[15:58:58] <alex_joni> I think so
[15:59:09] <alex_joni> but it depends how you set up scaling on the pid
[15:59:51] <cradek> volt/(mm sec) does make intuitive sense
[16:00:56] <jepler> you mean, if the output value is actually "volts"?
[16:01:04] <alex_joni> jepler: yeah
[16:01:18] <alex_joni> and the input is ~mm
[16:04:00] <jepler> er yes
[16:07:13] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/config/ini_config.lyx: use 'machine units' to refer to, er, machine units. show units of PID gains with equations
[16:08:26] <tissf> hum ! question:
[16:08:28] <tissf> Is there a difference in units between "The units on the I gain are volts per user unit-seconds" and
[16:08:29] <tissf> "The units on the D gain are volts per user unit per second" ?
[16:09:54] <alex_joni> I think "I" refers to 'machine units' * second, and "D" to 'machine units' / second
[16:11:33] <tissf> I also think, but I wanted confirmation
[16:13:47] <alex_joni> don't expect it from me :P
[16:14:06] <tissf> D)
[16:16:14] <tissf> jepler: If you relook ini_config.lyx, I stop translating?
[16:17:30] <tissf> I commit tonight stepconf.lyx
[16:20:55] <tissf> Currently, which the stable, ready documentations for the translation?
[16:21:10] <alex_joni> tissf: everything in v2_2_branch is fixed
[16:21:23] <alex_joni> the stuff in TRUNK can change..
[16:22:36] <tissf> ok therefore I must work on this v2_2_branch
[16:29:25] <jepler> maybe I got it wrong, then, because all those equations I newly wrote have units on the bottom
[16:29:42] <alex_joni> jepler: sounds right
[16:29:55] <alex_joni> volts / units*sec
[16:30:00] <alex_joni> volts / (units/sec)
[16:31:05] <jepler> so D = volt sec / units
[16:31:15] <alex_joni> probably
[16:32:26] <jepler> I wonder if \frac{volt}{sec/units} or \frac{volt sec}{units} is the better equation to put in the docs
[16:32:35] <jepler> er
[16:32:42] <jepler> the first should have been \frac{volt}{units/sec}
[16:32:43] <alex_joni> I got it..
[16:32:51] <alex_joni> I think the first one
[16:33:30] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/config/ini_config.lyx: fix D equation
[16:34:40] <jepler> I don't think that the english-language documentation in v2_2-branch can be considered "unchanging" -- when I make documentation improvements (as opposed to documenting new features), I prefer to backport them so that users can read the best documentation about the version they're using...
[16:35:29] <alex_joni> jepler: right, but it's less likely to change radically (like TRUNK could)
[16:38:49] <tissf> jepler: Thanks for the update, there is no more ambiguity
[16:50:19] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/config/ini_config.lyx: backport: clear up confusion about units in inifiles
[16:56:24] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/common/Glossary.lyx: define display units, program units, and machine units
[17:02:04] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/common/Glossary.lyx: merge from TRUNK: define display units, program units, and machine units
[17:09:08] <alex_joni> jepler: new feature request :)
[17:10:03] <alex_joni> would it be hard to mark lines which AXIS skips (with a leading '/') with a different colour in the preview? (maybe even in the code listbox)
[17:14:39] <cradek> using / is always going to make the preview wrong
[17:14:51] <cradek> because there are two possible programs
[17:14:56] <Roguish_> jepler: another feature request? how would one add color to the sim gui objects (cylinders, box, etc.)?
[17:14:57] <cradek> it's futile to try to draw both of them
[17:15:26] <Roguish_> in vismach.py?
[17:15:47] <alex_joni> cradek: remind me how '/' works?
[17:16:05] <cradek> alex_joni: it skips those lines as if they were never read by the interp
[17:16:17] <alex_joni> that's based on a switch.. right?
[17:16:18] <cradek> alex_joni: /G91 (haha)
[17:16:20] <cradek> yes
[17:16:50] <cradek> /G21
[17:16:50] <alex_joni> hrmm.. then maybe drawing them with some other colour still is usefull
[17:16:54] <alex_joni> or maybe dotted lines
[17:17:01] <alex_joni> eek.. that's bad ;P
[17:17:17] <cradek> /G91 is worse
[17:17:26] <cradek> but still, it's futile
[17:17:28] <alex_joni> G91 is relative?
[17:17:32] <cradek> yes
[17:17:36] <alex_joni> yuck
[17:23:11] <cradek> what you (might?) really want is for the AXIS preview to be regenerated when you turn block delete on/off
[17:23:27] <cradek> because you potentially get a completely different program
[17:23:33] <alex_joni> don't shoot the messenger :)
[17:23:38] <alex_joni> yeah, that sounds more usefull
[17:24:15] <cradek> no shooting here, but I'll tell the messenger when I think he didn't completely think through the message :-)
[17:24:32] <alex_joni> I only thought so far as to translate it ;)
[17:24:52] <alex_joni> I guess the guy only uses it for some intermediary moves
[17:24:58] <alex_joni> case where it does make sense
[17:25:31] <cradek> g0x0y0, x1, /y1, x0
[17:25:47] <cradek> it's hard for me to think of any case where coloring some lines would be adequate
[17:25:59] <cradek> / turns some motions off, so the path changes
[17:26:10] <alex_joni> right
[17:26:48] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/extensions/minigl.c:
[17:26:48] <CIA-18> make it possible to color a group of objects by using
[17:26:48] <CIA-18> Color((r,g,b,a), [objects])
[17:26:49] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/vismach.py:
[17:26:49] <CIA-18> make it possible to color a group of objects by using
[17:26:49] <CIA-18> Color((r,g,b,a), [objects])
[17:27:19] <cradek> you could use it for other things, like /m0 or /m8, but there is no line to color
[17:27:53] <Roguish_> ok, ok, slow down. i'm no programmer, but i have drilled down to minigl.c
[17:28:04] <alex_joni> Roguish_: you don't have to
[17:28:08] <jepler> Roguish_: an example:
[17:28:08] <jepler> Roguish_: an example:tool = Color((0,1,1,0), [tooltip,
[17:28:08] <jepler> CylinderZ(tool_len, tool_radius, 0.0, tool_radius),
[17:28:08] <jepler> Box(-100,-100,tool_len, 100,100,tool_len+50),
[17:28:08] <jepler> Box(25,-50,tool_len+50, 100,50,tool_len+150)
[17:28:34] <Roguish_> you're adding a color thingy in minigl and in vismach.py, right?
[17:28:44] <alex_joni> he already did ;)
[17:28:47] <jepler> result: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/5axis-color.png
[17:29:12] <cradek> jepler: I tried to rotate your picture by dragging the middle button
[17:29:25] <alex_joni> cradek: guess what
[17:29:33] <alex_joni> * alex_joni did that too
[17:29:37] <cradek> ha
[17:29:44] <alex_joni> I spent the last couple of days doing mostly 3d stuff
[17:29:55] <Roguish_> when? i did an update just yesterday?
[17:30:08] <alex_joni> Roguish_: the CIA commit message was 5 minutes ago
[17:30:23] <Roguish_> that's what i thought.
[17:30:33] <alex_joni> Roguish_: whenever there's a CIA-** message it means there's something new in CVS
[17:30:47] <Roguish_> i get that, too.
[17:30:50] <alex_joni> new features, new bugs, new bugfixes.. whatever :)
[17:30:55] <Roguish_> yes.
[17:31:12] <alex_joni> so you need to cvs up, and then you can use Color
[17:31:39] <Roguish_> so, i update again and modify vismach to add color to the objects (cylinder, box), right?
[17:31:45] <Roguish_> then compile.
[17:31:59] <alex_joni> you need to modify your model, not vismach
[17:32:13] <alex_joni> e.g. 5axisbridgegui.py
[17:32:30] <jepler> you will have to update, recompile (because minigl.c changed), then change your model file to use Color() to group the things that you want in a different color
[17:32:34] <Roguish_> oh, yeah, right.
[17:32:54] <jepler> Color() is similar to Collection(), except that it takes a color argument before the items it contains: Color((r,g,b,a), [contents])
[17:33:05] <Roguish_> i'm slow, but not tooooooo dumb.
[17:33:25] <alex_joni> Roguish_: no-one implied that
[17:33:49] <Roguish_> i'm sitting in my office on the doz box with putty and xming going to the emc box in the shop.
[17:34:15] <alex_joni> nice..
[17:35:28] <Roguish_> i'm in the middle of doing an estimate for client to design and fab a 4,5 axis head for their gantry router.
[17:36:01] <alex_joni> Roguish_: was it you that asked about stl ?
[17:36:13] <Roguish_> so i'm really happy to see all the work on 5axis. gonna make my work much easier.
[17:36:20] <Roguish_> no. no stl here.
[17:36:31] <alex_joni> ok, someone else then :)
[17:36:40] <Roguish_> gotta convert from flashcut to emc2
[17:38:58] <Roguish_> again, thanks. i'll add a little color so i can see what's going on in the 5axisgui. i really like that visualization!!!!!!!
[17:39:49] <skunkworks> I am probally going to say - Building a working realtime kernel is not easy at all. If your a linux newbie even doubly so.
[17:39:57] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46987
[17:40:07] <alex_joni> skunkworks: no kidding
[17:40:18] <skunkworks> maybe tell him to download the 2.2.1 live cd and try that again.
[17:40:48] <alex_joni> don't think it will make a difference
[17:40:58] <skunkworks> you don't think so?
[17:41:08] <skunkworks> with all the current updates?
[17:41:18] <alex_joni> it really depends what crashes
[17:41:25] <skunkworks> Yes - you are right
[17:41:27] <alex_joni> but if it's unsupported hardware.. that didn't change
[17:41:36] <alex_joni> they didn't add any new drivers
[17:41:40] <skunkworks> ah - ok
[17:41:44] <alex_joni> nor is the kernel any different
[18:22:30] <Roguish_> check it out: http://engineering.no-ip.biz/ and click on the EMC2 link..................
[18:22:46] <Roguish_> we got color.
[18:23:15] <alex_joni> cool
[18:24:00] <Roguish_> thanks again. i'lll keep working on it, but just that really helps in seeing the motions.
[18:26:18] <alex_joni> Roguish_: nice turn/tilt table you got there
[18:26:40] <jepler> the gcode documentation describes the precedence of binary operators in the prose, but it doesn't mention the precedence of the comparison operators GT and so on
[18:26:56] <jepler> anybody happen to know what the precedence is, or shall I scrounge the source code to find out?
[18:27:31] <alex_joni> I think I saw it in the wiki once
[18:27:35] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes look
[18:28:15] <jepler> Interp::precedence looks like it may be what I need to follow
[18:29:39] <alex_joni> yeah .. probably :)
[18:34:53] <alex_joni> did you write this? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?SynchronizedOutputs
[18:38:22] <jepler> maybe
[19:57:47] <CIA-18> 03alex_joni 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/ladder/classic_ladder.lyx: link to mavati's homepage
[20:14:09] <CIA-18> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/ (command.c control.c mot_priv.h motion.c motion.h): make tool offset available in hal
[20:14:09] <CIA-18> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/ (emctaskmain.cc taskintf.cc): make tool offset available in hal
[20:14:09] <CIA-18> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/emc.hh: make tool offset available in hal
[21:14:09] <CIA-18> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/main.lyx:
[21:14:09] <CIA-18> * Improve discussion of expression syntax in gcode. use some less obtuse terms.
[21:14:09] <CIA-18> * add some tables for operators and functions
[21:14:09] <CIA-18> * refer back to this in the o-code documentation
[22:01:37] <tissf> jepler: In ini_config.lyx, Can you please revisit COMP_FILE_TYPE definition in AXIS-Section?
[22:01:37] <tissf> I can not understand it. Especially the terms: forward_trim, reverse_trim, nominal-forward, and nominal-reverse and their context.
[22:01:38] <tissf> After that I finished translating stepconf_fr.lyx and ini_conf_fr.lyx
[23:00:33] <jepler> tissf: I'm not sure what those terms mean either.
[23:01:01] <jepler> tissf: but let me see if I can figure it out ..
[23:02:09] <tissf> :) thank After 50 readings I began to understand!
[23:04:41] <jepler> the "nominal" value is the position of the axis before the compensation takes place
[23:04:50] <tissf> ok
[23:05:23] <jepler> the "forward" column gives the actual position if that nominal value was reached going in the positive direction
[23:05:35] <jepler> the "backward" column gives thea ctual position if that nominal value was reached going in the negative direction
[23:06:29] <tissf> jepler: ok
[23:06:39] <jepler> a "trim" value is a small value added to the nominal value to find the actual value
[23:07:06] <jepler> so you might have a line that reads 1.00 1.01 0.99 for the first form, or a line that reads 1.00 0.01 -0.01 for the second form
[23:07:59] <tissf> ah ! OK Finally it's simple
[23:08:47] <tissf> This damn minus troubles me: o)
[23:10:08] <jepler> oh well
[23:11:36] <jepler> I think it's more because the documentation has never been edited or even proofread than because your english comprehension is bad
[23:11:46] <jepler> native english speakers can't even understand parts of it
[23:11:56] <jepler> bbl