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[00:19:37] <skunkworks> jymmm is going to be so mad at me.. ;)
[00:25:13] <skunkworks> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320155952581&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=011
[00:37:01] <cradek> skunkworks: wow, you win
[00:37:55] <cradek> and hey, so do I, I just got back from an auction - machine shop in a nearby town closed
[00:38:04] <cradek> got a few nice things.
[00:40:17] <skunkworks> cradek: cool - what did you win?
[00:40:30] <skunkworks> how is the vacuum table coming??
[00:40:33] <cradek> hey, stepconf!
[00:40:52] <cradek> the vacuum table is almost done - just the little holes to be drilled and then figure out a way to hook vacuum to it
[00:42:29] <cradek> at the auction we got a 2hp floor drill press, 12? inch rotary table (half of my future 5-axis project), tapping head, tooling, etc etc
[00:42:54] <skunkworks> cool - your thinking of a trunion?
[00:42:56] <cradek> actually the rotary table might be more like 16", it's big
[00:42:59] <cradek> yes
[00:43:03] <skunkworks> very cool
[00:43:18] <cradek> actually this one will mount upright - at first I could just bolt an angle plate to it and mount another (small) rotary on it
[00:43:26] <cradek> I have a couple (very) small ones
[00:43:54] <skunkworks> exactly - most of the projects I can think of doing with 5 axis are pretty small.
[00:44:00] <skunkworks> reletivly
[00:44:48] <cradek> yeah that's probably true
[00:45:19] <skunkworks> * skunkworks doesn't plan on making engine blocks out of billet aluminum ;)
[00:45:25] <cradek> there was no cnc anything in this whole shop
[00:45:58] <cradek> I could tell because the vises and machine tables were still in good shape :-)
[00:46:14] <cradek> a working bridgeport tracer mill sold for $300
[00:46:26] <skunkworks> yikes - was i tempting?
[00:46:27] <cradek> and I didn't bid on the 40"x108" lathe...
[00:46:34] <cradek> not in the least!
[00:46:36] <skunkworks> heh
[00:46:40] <skunkworks> it
[00:46:46] <cradek> who wants a hydraulic mill
[00:47:00] <skunkworks> not I. have one already :)
[00:47:20] <cradek> the 40" lathe had a lot of interest - sold for $12k which really surprised me
[00:48:10] <cradek> "oh and sorry, we just sold the forklift that could lift this - you'll have to figure something out"
[00:48:56] <skunkworks> funny
[00:49:26] <cradek> the guy who bought the forklift was helping people - very nice
[00:49:43] <skunkworks> good - there are still people like that.
[00:49:46] <cradek> he loaded our drill press into the pickup
[00:50:11] <cradek> and by sheer luck the drill press and tapping head are both MT3
[00:50:29] <skunkworks> floor drill presses are nice. I still have to put mine back togather - kinda was waiting for the garage. (in the basement right now.)
[00:50:36] <skunkworks> nice
[00:51:44] <cradek> yeah we only had a little tabletop drill press - now we'll have to find someone to give it to
[00:52:15] <cradek> anyway, fun but tiring day
[00:52:20] <skunkworks> I like those
[00:53:11] <cradek> think you'll get more bids at the end of your engraver auction?
[00:54:25] <skunkworks> hope so - but I am happy where it is at right now. That many bids so far from the end of the action is good.
[00:54:42] <skunkworks> I am hoping for an ending push :)
[00:54:44] <cradek> yeah very good sign
[00:54:49] <cradek> you might get it!
[00:55:46] <cradek> I bet r***l comes back
[00:56:01] <cradek> it's apparent that for another $100 he could get it
[00:56:23] <cradek> oh I read it wrong - maybe not so
[00:56:55] <cradek> t***c's bid might be somewhat higher - but probably not too much since he hoped to get it for 15
[01:02:58] <SWPadnos> if u***a wants it, he'll probably snipe in the last minute or so
[01:03:08] <SWPadnos> or s***t
[01:03:33] <skunkworks> right
[01:03:39] <skunkworks> or a few of them..
[01:03:40] <skunkworks> :)
[01:03:41] <cradek> yeah and they're both cursing r***l right now
[01:03:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:04:03] <SWPadnos> r***l may not have the experience for sniping - hard to tell
[01:04:29] <skunkworks> idiots bidding early. - But I like that.
[01:04:45] <SWPadnos> hmmm. probably not. usually snipers put a bid in, then let others bid it up, then one laast one at the end - not the r***l pattern at all
[01:04:56] <SWPadnos> heh - nice return for you at least :)
[01:05:18] <skunkworks> I have seen someone come in at the end and get it - one that hasn't bidded previosly
[01:05:29] <SWPadnos> yep. I do that sometimes :)
[01:05:38] <skunkworks> its up to almost 50 watchers.
[01:05:38] <SWPadnos> atomic clocks are so handy
[01:05:46] <skunkworks> yes :)
[01:05:48] <skunkworks> dad does that.
[01:05:51] <cradek> I think that's the only winning ebay strategy
[01:06:04] <cradek> did I mention lately that I hate ebay?
[01:06:07] <SWPadnos> you can win by just bidding a shitload of money also
[01:06:14] <SWPadnos> no, I don't think you have
[01:06:15] <skunkworks> does a couple of refreshes to get an idea of the internet speed.
[01:06:34] <SWPadnos> heh - I usually snipe around 5-10 seconds before the auction closes
[01:06:37] <cradek> SWPadnos: yes but that will cost you (much) more
[01:06:47] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[01:06:50] <cradek> I meant more by "win" than "get the item"
[01:06:51] <cradek> hi jmk
[01:06:59] <SWPadnos> you don't have to get the page back within the auction limit, the request only has to get to them in time
[01:07:02] <jmkasunich> cradek: you're really upgrading your shop these days
[01:07:32] <cradek> jmkasunich: yeah what the heck
[01:07:54] <skunkworks> some people have boats. :)
[01:08:18] <SWPadnos> he
[01:08:20] <SWPadnos> h
[01:08:51] <cradek> or motorcycles - oh wait
[01:08:55] <cradek> :-)
[01:09:05] <SWPadnos> or old cars
[01:09:12] <cradek> argh
[01:09:12] <jmkasunich> 2hp is a pretty beefy drill press
[01:09:34] <SWPadnos> I just got these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tem=110080947943
[01:09:37] <cradek> jmkasunich: it's definitely heavy, but I doubt the 2hp rating because it's 110v 15A
[01:09:47] <skunkworks> how many rpm?
[01:09:49] <SWPadnos> I need to make adaptor plates for my motors, but it's a good start
[01:09:52] <skunkworks> is the motor?
[01:09:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:09:58] <cradek> skunkworks: not sure
[01:10:01] <SWPadnos> sounds like shop-vac or router HP
[01:10:07] <SWPadnos> or compressor
[01:10:25] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: the link is dead
[01:10:25] <cradek> it goes down to 150? rpm with two pulley reductions so it's for big drills.
[01:10:33] <jmkasunich> actually, if a drill press is rated in HP, that means it must be relatively new
[01:10:52] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[01:11:03] <jmkasunich> usually they're rated by the size of the largest circle they can drill in the center of
[01:11:27] <SWPadnos> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110080947943
[01:11:33] <cradek> it has that rating too, it's 20"
[01:11:50] <SWPadnos> ah - I had deleted the i from item in the first link
[01:12:00] <jmkasunich> thats a BFD
[01:12:06] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:12:07] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: nice
[01:12:11] <cradek> yeah it's definitely big enough
[01:12:49] <jmkasunich> mine is a 15" clausing, and its a nice heavy drill press - 300 lbs or so
[01:12:50] <SWPadnos> yeah - I think I can now do the conversion, with all that spare time I'll have during the frigid winter
[01:12:59] <jmkasunich> a 20" probably weighs closer to 600
[01:14:23] <jmkasunich> cradek: varispeed drive?
[01:14:37] <cradek> just pulleys
[01:14:51] <cradek> 150 - 4500 or something like that
[01:15:03] <jmkasunich> step pulleys, not adjustabel ones
[01:15:07] <cradek> right
[01:15:24] <jmkasunich> any idea who made it?
[01:15:57] <cradek> either this one or the other one said craftsman somewhere on it
[01:15:57] <jmkasunich> FWIW, Enco has a 1.5HP 20" with varispeed, $2K and 750 lbs
[01:16:07] <cradek> damn
[01:16:15] <jmkasunich> craftsman eh? that explains the 2HP
[01:16:25] <jmkasunich> damn?
[01:16:31] <jmkasunich> you didn't pay 2K I hope
[01:16:30] <cradek> $2k
[01:16:34] <cradek> oh hell no
[01:16:46] <jmkasunich> lol
[01:17:07] <jmkasunich> then why damn?
[01:17:22] <cradek> that seems like a lot, but varispeed adds a lot I'm sure
[01:17:27] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:17:57] <jmkasunich> I couldn't tell from your tone of voice whether that was a regretfull damn or a "cool, I got a really good deal" damn
[01:18:14] <cradek> I got several good deals today
[01:18:16] <jmkasunich> the latter is usually pronounced "day-am"
[01:18:20] <cradek> haha
[01:18:37] <cradek> ok, fwiw, I don't know all my racial slurs either
[01:18:54] <jmkasunich> ?
[01:19:22] <cradek> when I vary from standard english I sometimes get lost
[01:26:44] <cradek> anyone tried stepconf yet?
[01:26:45] <jepler> evening all
[01:26:52] <cradek> hi speak of the devil
[01:26:55] <jepler> cradek: alex looked at it at least enough to spot a typo
[01:26:55] <jmkasunich> hi jeff
[01:27:05] <jepler> but I think when he tested it I'd missed checking in some files ..
[01:27:13] <cradek> jepler: more than I've done, even though you've asked me several times to look at it
[01:27:30] <jepler> cradek: oh well .. now it's even easier for you to try it
[01:27:35] <cradek> yeah
[01:28:49] <jmkasunich> cradek: I hope you bought a small crane to go with your rotary table
[01:29:13] <cradek> yeah that thing weighs a surprising amount.
[01:29:28] <cradek> the two of us carried it though
[01:29:36] <jmkasunich> enco again, horizontal/vertical is 200 lbs
[01:29:46] <cradek> as short a distance as possible, twice
[01:30:04] <cradek> I'm sure this does weigh 200lb or more
[01:30:15] <jmkasunich> lifting it onto the mill table is where it gets interesting
[01:30:34] <cradek> just lower the knee to the level of the table...
[01:30:44] <jmkasunich> you want a cart that is roughly the right height, roll it to the table, run the knee up or down, and slide
[01:30:53] <cradek> right
[01:31:19] <jmkasunich> you said it might be bigger than 12"
[01:31:54] <cradek> I think it said 230mm on it, but that' 9" so makes no sense
[01:32:07] <jmkasunich> mm? eww
[01:32:11] <cradek> unless it's radius? but that would be odd
[01:32:18] <jmkasunich> and huge
[01:32:35] <cradek> I'll go measure it
[01:32:39] <skunkworks> heh
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320155952581&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=011
[01:32:52] <jmkasunich> woo hoo!
[01:33:17] <skunkworks> that is a good roi
[01:33:37] <jmkasunich> and a load better than you'd make running PC boards for cheapskates
[01:34:07] <skunkworks> less hasle I hope.
[01:34:09] <skunkworks> :)
[01:34:56] <cradek> jmkasunich: 320mm (12.6")
[01:35:13] <jmkasunich> dyslexia kicking in again I see
[01:35:31] <cradek> nah I don't blame any particular disorder
[01:35:33] <SWPadnos> that's about the size of mine, except mine can't do vertical
[01:35:43] <jmkasunich> 230 -> 320 = dyslexis
[01:35:59] <cradek> yeah I'm glad I can mount it vertical
[01:36:23] <SWPadnos> I kinda wish I could, but oh well
[01:36:30] <cradek> much bigger (radius > quill travel) would be no use
[01:36:36] <SWPadnos> my little 4" can be vertical, so it's OK
[01:36:51] <jmkasunich> flat rotaries aren't all that usefull with CNC
[01:37:04] <cradek> right those are really for manual machines
[01:37:11] <SWPadnos> no,but it has been useful when doing things manually the last 3 years :)
[01:37:30] <SWPadnos> soon, it'll be useless :)
[01:38:00] <cradek> you just need a large angle plate
[01:38:11] <cradek> cheaper than a new rotary table
[01:38:58] <jmkasunich> definitely need a crane then
[01:39:13] <jmkasunich> (rotary + angle plate)
[01:40:12] <jmkasunich> how about a 20" tilting rotary?
[01:40:13] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:40:30] <jmkasunich> weight? well, if you have to ask...
[01:41:45] <SWPadnos> slightly more than a Bridgeport :)
[01:42:05] <jmkasunich> not that bad
[01:42:06] <cradek> I think the enco "phase II" is it, or virtually the same
[01:42:22] <jmkasunich> but it will make your knee motor struggle
[01:42:39] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/images/products/08-001-313.jpg
[01:42:42] <cradek> $400 before shipping 250lb...
[01:42:50] <jmkasunich> I saw that one
[01:43:29] <cradek> jmkasunich: wooo that looks nice
[01:43:37] <jmkasunich> $999
[01:43:40] <SWPadnos> that looks nice - what was the pirce o
[01:43:41] <SWPadnos> oh
[01:43:41] <jmkasunich> plus shipping
[01:43:57] <SWPadnos> nah - have 'em hold it until the next time I drive through :)
[01:44:08] <cradek> $1k for a good five axis setup seems like a great deal
[01:44:20] <cradek> wonder how easily it could be cnced
[01:44:24] <jmkasunich> here's the complete URL
[01:44:25] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/search-products/product-detail.aspx?id=08-001-313&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0
[01:44:56] <jmkasunich> darn
[01:44:58] <SWPadnos> yeah - that does look like a good deal
[01:45:05] <SWPadnos> darn?
[01:45:09] <jmkasunich> this month's saturday sale was yesterday
[01:45:12] <SWPadnos> bummer
[01:45:16] <jmkasunich> (they're open one Sat a month)
[01:45:49] <jmkasunich> 20" is pretty big to put on the table of most machines
[01:45:59] <cradek> yeah 12 would be better
[01:46:21] <jmkasunich> if the table is 20, I bet the overall size is close to 3 feet
[01:46:21] <SWPadnos> but - what if you want to make engines from a single aluminum billet?
[01:46:58] <SWPadnos> it looks like the table is the widest part, but the overall length does look to be 3'
[01:47:18] <jmkasunich> I know - let's get Roland to put it on the Mazak!
[01:47:33] <SWPadnos> so you could stick it on a 10x50 table maybe, but a 9x42 probably not
[01:47:38] <SWPadnos> heh - that would be fun
[01:47:48] <jmkasunich> it would fill up the table
[01:48:13] <jmkasunich> I've seen smaller units similar to that one in the past
[01:48:17] <SWPadnos> sure, but the table can move a fair ways on the mazak
[01:48:24] <jmkasunich> usually pricy (by my standards anyway)
[01:48:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:48:53] <jmkasunich> I think the mazak has 40" of X and 16" of Y
[01:49:46] <cradek> bbl
[01:49:47] <SWPadnos> it seemed like more, but that could be because it's a big table you really want to get out of the way for
[01:51:09] <jmkasunich> actually, it is 28 x 15.5 x 8
[01:51:19] <jmkasunich> (just checked the demo_mazak ini file)
[01:51:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:51:40] <SWPadnos> so it could be 30x16x8 or thereabouts, less some safety margin
[01:51:54] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:52:34] <jmkasunich> I'd rather find a two axis table in a more reasonable size
[01:52:40] <SWPadnos> well, with a rotary table, it kind of doesn't matter. you can rotate a larger part so the work area is within the tool envelope
[01:53:03] <SWPadnos> though not with 5 axis
[01:55:14] <SWPadnos> so I guess an XY rotary table can be useful with CNC, if only to swing large parts into the work envelope :)
[03:02:42] <tomp2> troyke
[03:03:02] <SWPadnos> that's what I've got
[03:03:40] <SWPadnos> $130, delivered :) (though I think the guy overloaded his trunk with my table and 2 6" vises
[03:03:54] <tomp2> :) 130!
[03:04:28] <SWPadnos> yep - got the 12" rotary for $130 and 3x 6" machine vises for $85 each
[03:04:33] <SWPadnos> err - 2 vises
[03:04:53] <tomp2> it's uvc (par to x&y then rotates about Z ) 12" great deal
[03:05:27] <SWPadnos> it sits flat on the table and rotates about Z (it's a C axis)
[03:05:50] <tomp2> yep u v c
[03:05:55] <SWPadnos> it is a good deal, those are usually $500 or more used, $2k or more new
[03:06:11] <SWPadnos> about $1/pound ;)
[03:07:27] <tomp2> the trick to a troyke is knowin that letting the cutter sit still will marr the part... the trick is "which handle do i turn now!?"
[03:07:37] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:07:59] <SWPadnos> this only has one handle
[03:08:07] <SWPadnos> except for the locks
[03:08:24] <tomp2> not crossslide rotary?
[03:08:34] <SWPadnos> nope, rotary only
[03:08:46] <tomp2> scusa, yep only C
[03:08:47] <SWPadnos> big fat heavy duty rotary
[03:08:58] <tomp2> good stuff
[03:10:05] <tomp2> greek isnt it? greeks made helios calipers ( best non-dial caliper ) and troyke
[03:11:18] <SWPadnos> dunno
[03:12:11] <tomp2> how to adjust troyke rotary tables
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000113;p=0 several pdfs
[03:13:13] <tomp2> btw built in cincinatti :-[
[03:13:17] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:13:34] <SWPadnos> at least greek food is good :)
[03:13:43] <SWPadnos> even if we don't get their rotary tables
[03:17:31] <tomp2> you know 'oopa' means 'migawd the cheese is on fire'
[03:48:50] <LawrenceG> http://imagebin.ca/view/kpVsKrOF.html http://imagebin.ca/view/HepZ6K.html http://imagebin.ca/view/Mzzx6f.html lathe spindle encoder
[03:50:13] <LawrenceG> now for the electrical part...
[03:59:21] <cradek> neat! how many holes is it?
[04:02:31] <cradek> maybe 90
[04:02:57] <cradek> if your sensor shows 50% duty cycle (I think it might, you did a good job sizing the holes) you could try counting on both edges
[04:03:50] <LawrenceG> yes... figured 90*4 should give a count every degree
[04:04:09] <LawrenceG> intersted in the gcode?
[04:04:12] <cradek> oh you will have two sensors for quadrature?
[04:04:18] <LawrenceG> yes
[04:04:23] <cradek> nice
[04:04:28] <LawrenceG> 3...a b and z
[04:04:35] <cradek> oh right
[04:04:40] <SWPadnos> yep - I see the index mark - cool]
[04:05:01] <cradek> is this a shoptask?
[04:05:09] <SWPadnos> looks like the Diablo version
[04:05:19] <LawrenceG> yes... 95 or 96 version
[04:05:30] <SWPadnos> (at least it's yellow like the diablo :) )
[04:05:43] <cradek> some photos and the gcode might be nice on the wiki
[04:05:53] <cradek> you're not the first or last to convert one of these machines
[04:06:12] <SWPadnos> oh - eldorado, not diablo
[04:06:17] <LawrenceG> very excited about getting threading running
[04:06:18] <cradek> gotta get to bed... goodnight
[04:06:18] <SWPadnos> silly me
[04:06:25] <SWPadnos> night. see you later
[04:06:32] <cradek> CNC threading is really really nice
[04:07:13] <SWPadnos> hmm. when you get it working, could you make me some 1.75x1/2" shoulder bolts, with about 1/2" of 3/8-16 thread on the end? :)
[04:08:00] <LawrenceG> http://pastebin.ca/700315 ... named variable, owords, subroutines... the works! thanks lerman
[04:08:08] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:09:33] <LawrenceG> bolts would be fun
[04:10:49] <LawrenceG> ... tou will need cvs version of emc to run the file... 2.17 doesnt have named variables yet
[04:11:13] <SWPadnos> I'd need a CNC too
[04:11:22] <SWPadnos> that's what the bolts are for ;)
[04:12:03] <LawrenceG> hey if everyone makes you a part, you will have a machine by next fest!
[04:12:07] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:12:18] <SWPadnos> I got some servo mounts off eBay
[04:12:32] <SWPadnos> they're new, and have bearings, belts, and sprockets, which is cool
[04:12:43] <SWPadnos> they also have metric screws that don't fit the Bridgeport
[04:13:08] <SWPadnos> and the X mount has 1.75" deep screw holes
[04:13:45] <SWPadnos> and of course, the mounts are for NEMA34 motors, and mine are NEMA42, but that's reasonably easy to fix, even with a manual mill
[04:16:09] <LawrenceG> np... get the stick welder out and tack them on!
[04:16:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:16:31] <SWPadnos> I could just manhandle the metric screws into the imperial holes
[04:17:11] <LawrenceG> will cap screws work or do you need a custom bolt?
[04:17:23] <SWPadnos> they're available from MSC
[04:17:32] <SWPadnos> at $3/60 each ($18 for a 5-pack)
[04:17:37] <SWPadnos> $3.60
[04:18:18] <SWPadnos> if I want stainless or something hard (or non-import), they come in hundred packs for $loads
[04:19:09] <LawrenceG> must be nice bolts :}
[04:19:16] <SWPadnos> I hope so
[04:19:45] <SWPadnos> trouble is they don't tell you how much thread is at the end
[04:20:04] <SWPadnos> they only give you the shoulder length/diameter, plus thread pitch/diameter
[04:21:30] <SWPadnos> only $998.05 for a 100-pack in stainless
[04:21:53] <LawrenceG> wtf?
[04:22:01] <SWPadnos> yeah - and no singles ...
[04:23:01] <LawrenceG> sounds like you will have to design them into your next project at the office
[04:23:21] <SWPadnos> hmmm. actually, the 5-pack for $18 is Holo-Krome, so they're probably pretty good
[04:23:34] <SWPadnos> grade 8 alloy steel
[04:23:53] <SWPadnos> that should be strong enough to hold ~25 pounds of mount and motor (with 4 screws)
[04:27:39] <LawrenceG> well... I think its time to go put my feet up and relax... goodnight Sir
[04:27:46] <SWPadnos> nighty night
[04:28:15] <SWPadnos> oh shit. I think those bolts may be $18 each O_O
[13:49:32] <alex_joni> morning all
[13:51:40] <cradek> hi
[13:59:13] <jepler> the latest rtai magma patch is clean against the current ubuntu gutsy beta kernel
[14:00:45] <jepler> it looks like git is enabling the ubuntu people to track the vanilla kernel pretty closely .. and signs are that the rtai magma patches are being generated from a git tree as well
[14:01:16] <rayh> Hey jepler tell me a bit about git?
[14:01:21] <jepler> hi rayh
[14:01:32] <jepler> it's another version control system -- an alternative to CVS and SVN
[14:01:36] <rayh> Hi Jeff
[14:01:45] <rayh> Okay.
[14:01:52] <jepler> it was started by Linus, and intended to be better than the others for "distributed development"
[14:02:14] <rayh> Ah I remember something about Linus starting something else.
[14:02:17] <jepler> where I add some features and you fix some bugs and then a third person can easily incorporate all of those changes along with his own changes
[14:02:24] <jepler> and for the linux kernel it seems to be working
[14:02:40] <jepler> (well, I'll let you know in 10 hours when I can actually try this realtime kernel I'm trying to build...)
[14:03:10] <rayh> Better you than me! I'm glad I quit building kernels a while back.
[14:03:23] <alex_joni> rayh: :P
[14:03:27] <cradek> me too
[14:03:28] <cradek> haha
[14:03:39] <alex_joni> I didn't fill my quota yet
[14:03:46] <alex_joni> so I might give it another go sometimes
[14:03:51] <cradek> I hope someone else does the next ones, I want out of the business
[14:03:53] <alex_joni> (or just save it for later)
[14:03:56] <jepler> in addition to the centralized model where developers check in patches to one server, git lets any individual developer have a revision control tree which can be private or accessible to others
[14:04:06] <alex_joni> cradek: I did the dapper though
[14:04:15] <cradek> and a good job you did too
[14:04:29] <alex_joni> with your help though :)
[14:05:27] <cradek> maybe you can do impetuous impala
[14:05:30] <rayh> The central repository knows about or can know about and use a private tree?
[14:07:22] <alex_joni> rayh: not until someone pushes the changes from the repository below
[14:07:22] <jepler> rayh: git (the software) doesn't have a "central repository" which is different than the others, though the communities which use git do
[14:07:38] <alex_joni> it's really very distributed
[14:07:55] <jepler> rayh: changes get from one tree to another by a developer doing a "push" or "pull" command
[14:08:21] <rayh> Okay.
[14:08:35] <jepler> for instance, if I have write access to a server, I can make some changes in my private tree, then "push" them to a public tree
[14:09:12] <jepler> then alex can "pull" them from the public tree to his tree
[14:10:25] <rayh> That's similar to our current CVS, so what are git's advantages.
[14:10:28] <alex_joni> oh, my very own tree.. wouldn't that be nice
[14:10:43] <alex_joni> rayh: it's like having multiple cascaded CVS'es
[14:10:59] <alex_joni> with information beeing able to travel up or down branches
[14:11:13] <SWPadnos> one advantage is that once you do the checkout (called a clone), each developer has the entire history on their local drive
[14:11:30] <SWPadnos> so I can see who made what change when, while I'm sitting on an airplane
[14:11:33] <jepler> rayh: yeah you'd really like the thing that SWPadnos is describing, because "git diff" doesn't have to use the network at all
[14:12:01] <rayh> Okay
[14:12:37] <rayh> How much bigger would my initial clone be?
[14:12:47] <rayh> Than my checkout is?
[14:13:08] <alex_joni> it contains all history, so about 20-40% in emc2's case?
[14:13:23] <SWPadnos> there's another neat thing, called bisect, which semi-automatically finds changes that cause problems
[14:13:34] <alex_joni> sticky bit has come loose
[14:14:07] <SWPadnos> git isn't as space-efficient as cvs, so it may be double the size. jepler did some looking but I don;'t remember the numbers
[14:14:17] <rayh> "changes that cause problems" ??
[14:14:48] <rayh> You mean from one person's tree to another?
[14:14:49] <SWPadnos> sure - if there's a bug in the latest version, but you knew that the version from last tuesday didn't have the bug, bisect can automatically find the change that caused the bug
[14:15:10] <alex_joni> changes that might have caused the bug
[14:15:21] <SWPadnos> it applies half the intervening patches, you test to see if the bug is there, if so, it applies half of the unapplied changes ...
[14:15:26] <rayh> * rayh is a bit skeptical about finding rt bugs that way.
[14:15:32] <SWPadnos> if the bug is there, it reverts half the changes ...
[14:15:39] <fenn> oo automated regression testing sorta?
[14:15:45] <jepler> you still have to test manually
[14:15:55] <jepler> or if not manually, then at least separately
[14:16:03] <SWPadnos> no, automated tracking of which changes between certain dates have been apllied :)
[14:16:07] <rayh> Ah like a compile bug rather than a runtime machine issue.
[14:16:20] <jepler> but git-bisect automatically chooses what revisions to test, based on whether you say a particular revision is "good" or "bad
[14:16:21] <SWPadnos> it could be either, but you do the testing
[14:16:22] <alex_joni> well.. can be both, as you test manually
[14:16:26] <jepler> it's like playing high/low
[14:16:37] <alex_joni> unless the Trojan horse ran out of hay
[14:17:35] <jepler> fresh checkouts comparing size for cvs and git:
[14:17:37] <jepler> 38872emc2.git
[14:17:37] <jepler> 25908emc2.cvs
[14:17:57] <rayh> okay. now for the loaded question. Are we already using git?
[14:17:58] <jepler> but with emc2.git I can look at the whole history of the project with the network cable unplugged
[14:18:02] <jepler> no, we're still using CVS
[14:18:26] <fenn> can you delete files from the git history?
[14:18:51] <rayh> can we parallel git and CVS?
[14:19:20] <jepler> rayh: it's possible to import the history from CVS to git, that's where emc2.git came from
[14:19:40] <jepler> "git-cvsimport" does a pretty good job of it
[14:20:15] <alex_joni> rayh: but it's impractical to assume people will commit to both systems
[14:20:29] <rayh> Sure.
[14:20:31] <alex_joni> it's mroe likely they use one system, and the other gets synched systematically
[14:20:40] <jepler> git-cvsimport is strictly one way
[14:21:06] <rayh> It moves history to git?
[14:21:13] <jepler> while git is neat I don't know that it offers enough advantages to justify any disruption changes might cause
[14:21:26] <jepler> I mean, to change from CVS to git
[14:21:33] <rayh> Okay.
[14:21:42] <jepler> and having two revision control systems publically is a recipe for confusion as well
[14:22:25] <jepler> fenn: I don't know how to remove something from history in git .. it's probably possible-but-discouraged
[14:23:09] <rayh> Thanks for the explanation.
[14:24:57] <fenn> i cant seem to find the manual page for git.. or the command :)
[14:25:13] <jepler> you may not have it installed .. on dapper the package is called 'git-core' though
[14:25:16] <jepler> http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/
[14:25:18] <jepler> ^^ online documentation
[14:25:29] <fenn> weird, i did apt-get git and it downloaded... something
[14:25:34] <fenn> and git-doc
[14:25:50] <jepler> git is something else .. Description: GNU Interactive Tools, a file browser/viewer and process viewer/killer
[14:25:56] <jepler> so the revision control system package is called git-core
[14:26:34] <jepler> also make sure you install gitk to graphically view the history
[14:39:16] <cradek> alex_joni: thanks for fixing step
[14:46:05] <jepler> you can get a copy of the emc2 history in git format by: git clone git://git.unpy.net/emc2.git local-directory-name
[14:46:20] <jepler> but don't do it frivolously; this is on my home dsl and it takes quite awhile to do
[14:49:09] <fenn> is there a reason it takes so long? does it use compression?
[14:49:29] <jepler> it just transfers more data than a cvs checkout
[14:53:38] <SWPadnos> and ity's uploading from DSL, which is generally pretty slow
[14:53:41] <SWPadnos> -y
[14:54:43] <rayh> http://wincent.com/a/about/wincent/weblog/archives/2007/07/git_notes.php
[14:55:00] <rayh> a link to why some folk have switched to git.
[14:55:33] <fenn> why some folks have not switched to git:
http://log.ometer.com/2006-10.html#20.2
[14:59:19] <jepler> it looks like you can use git with a centralized model just fine
[14:59:26] <SWPadnos> it should be noted that git is actually well-suited to maintaining local changes (such as config changes, or jlmjvm's local change to Axis), while still allowing you to grab updates
[15:00:32] <SWPadnos> so one could use SCM on their own configs (lets you roll back something that fubars the machine), and also pull in changes made to the central repository
[15:01:22] <fenn> SWPadnos: what? you mean you arent already using a local repository to store changes to your config files? :)
[15:01:43] <SWPadnos> well of course *I* am, but you know - normal people could too :)
[15:02:05] <SWPadnos> that was an interesting use of CVS I thought. I read about some people using it to manage /etc
[15:02:35] <SWPadnos> change the server config, if something bad happens at the next reboot, you can undo changesets until it works again
[15:03:15] <fenn> windows had something like that, they just backed up the whole system folder though..
[15:04:20] <fenn> * fenn spares you all a rant about versioning filesystems
[15:04:34] <jepler> not sure if I was competing with anybody, but 'git clone .../emc2.git' took about 10 minutes wall time over my dsl
[15:05:24] <fenn> you could set up a git repo on dreamhost i suppose
[15:05:41] <jepler> yeah if we switched I think that would be part of the plan .. git repos can be on dumb http if you want
[15:05:41] <fenn> it would pull from cvs periodically
[15:07:31] <jepler> bbl
[15:07:52] <cradek> "jeez, I can tell a (kernel, Haskell, shell) programmer wrote this."
[15:13:32] <alex_joni> cradek: huh?
[15:13:57] <fenn> alex_joni: from the link i posted
[15:13:59] <cradek> from fenn's link - a guy saying "huh? it's complex and I don't need this" about git
[15:14:08] <alex_joni> ha
[15:14:51] <fenn> i dont necessarily agree with him on that point, but he's obviously a smart person based on what i've read of his blog
[15:15:41] <fenn> a simple 2 minute "intro to git" can probably get you 90% of what you need to know
[15:22:01] <SWPadnos> haha - what a great spam subject line: "one-eyed monster-charger for you"
[15:24:45] <rayh> certainly beats "cwdz10j"
[15:25:51] <rayh> M2CW concering git. I'll support it if we decide to go that way.
[15:25:59] <alex_joni> jepler:
http://axis.unpythonic.net/01189478247 there's a broken link there
[15:26:08] <alex_joni> (the 'read the documentation' part)
[15:26:14] <rayh> Gotta run. Thanks guys.
[15:44:30] <jepler> alex_joni: fixed?
[15:44:35] <jepler> alex_joni: but the real docs are online too:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/stepconf/index.html
[15:45:17] <alex_joni> jepler: I know.. just ran into it
[15:46:03] <jepler> thanks for fixing the url there too
[15:46:04] <alex_joni> fixed now
[15:46:07] <jepler> * jepler <-- plainly incompetent
[15:46:20] <alex_joni> heh, why do you say that?
[15:46:33] <alex_joni> it happens to me all the time too..
[15:46:56] <alex_joni> I blame it on distractions
[15:49:10] <fenn> v2 could be called 'tillyconf' and add support for 12-strut oligopods
[15:53:33] <skunkworks_> umm - sure.
[15:53:57] <fenn> skunkworks_: it's a SMOP
[15:56:44] <skunkworks_> :) my engraver sold. Now I will see if I actually get payment :)
[15:56:59] <fenn> are you using escrow?
[15:57:14] <fenn> or is that part of ebay these days
[15:57:32] <skunkworks_> I expect full payment before shipping.
[15:59:53] <alex_joni> fenn: I saw that phrase catched
[16:00:10] <fenn> i'm a filthy meme-hole
[16:00:14] <alex_joni> haha
[16:00:30] <alex_joni> although to be exact it can only be a 9-strut oligopod in emc2
[16:00:52] <fenn> g-code restricts you to 6 axes anyway doesnt it?
[16:00:56] <alex_joni> nope
[16:01:00] <alex_joni> there's UVW
[16:01:15] <alex_joni> G1X1Y1Z1A1b1c1u1v1w1
[16:01:38] <fenn> hmm.. ok so i guess you could translate both hexapods together, but not rotate them together
[16:02:12] <alex_joni> you can rotate them together, not sepparately
[16:02:32] <fenn> either way
[16:02:36] <alex_joni> :D
[16:02:57] <fenn> you could have a mode switch command too.. ick
[16:03:10] <fenn> lock platform 1 rotation
[16:03:23] <fenn> i dont want to think about that
[16:03:31] <alex_joni> M62 (-> halcmd setp oligopodkins.switch-mode 1)
[16:08:24] <alex_joni> bbl
[16:35:16] <Unit41> emc was compiling soo good untill
[16:35:17] <Unit41> Compiling realtime emc/motion/command.c
[16:35:17] <Unit41> emc/motion/command.c: In function ‘emcmotCommandHandler’:
[16:35:17] <Unit41> emc/motion/command.c:1149: error: ‘NULL’ undeclared (first use in this function)
[16:35:17] <Unit41> emc/motion/command.c:1149: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
[16:35:17] <Unit41> emc/motion/command.c:1149: error: for each function it appears in.)
[16:37:43] <SWPadnos> what data is your checkout?
[16:37:46] <SWPadnos> date
[16:38:08] <SWPadnos> the current CVS TRUNK has "#if 0" on line 1149
[16:39:32] <SWPadnos> ok - I see it in rev 2.1.7 HEAD
[16:43:20] <jepler> using something other than the dapper realtime kernel package?
[16:43:42] <jepler> figure out what header your kernel defines NULL in, and include it explicitly in any file that gives that error
[16:43:49] <SWPadnos> it sounds like some header file isn't being included - NULL should be defined
[16:43:54] <SWPadnos> err - right :)
[18:14:34] <alex_joni> here's the real link for the hexapod pic:
http://www.imac.unavarra.es/parallel/images/argazkiak/img_4336.jpg
[18:32:15] <skunkworks_> alex_joni: how is that coming?
[18:35:02] <alex_joni> I have nfc
[18:35:23] <alex_joni> they posted on the devel list with problems running the kins
[18:35:32] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[18:35:45] <SWPadnos> you know - I just responded to Patrick Ferrick, and it made me think of something
[18:36:07] <SWPadnos> there's no reason why we can't have very long plaintext descriptions of ini variables, in the ini files
[18:36:11] <alex_joni> oh-oh, that can't be good :)
[18:36:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:36:47] <SWPadnos> you don't need comment characters, the ini file format is meant to have lots of irrelevant stuff in it, since it's meant for multiple programs
[18:37:07] <SWPadnos> (and everything for all the other programs is irrelevant to a specific program)
[18:37:37] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: and?
[18:38:05] <SWPadnos> well, it would allow for local documentation in the ini file ...
[18:38:41] <SWPadnos> I know a lot of that stuff was removed at some point, because it makes the file big and hard to navigate through
[18:38:59] <SWPadnos> anyway, just something to keep in the back of your mind
[18:39:16] <alex_joni> weeelll.. we can always make it big again
[18:39:25] <alex_joni> but it's hard for users to look at it initially
[18:39:57] <SWPadnos> the thing is, you load it up in an editor, and there can be these nice paragraphs telling you what the vars mean
[18:40:46] <alex_joni> let me guess... coloured paragraphs?
[18:42:10] <SWPadnos> err - probably not
[18:42:21] <SWPadnos> well, they'll have the same color as everything else :)
[18:42:45] <SWPadnos> unless you use syntax hilighting and set it for "settings" files (or desktop or whatever your favorite editor calls them)
[18:43:02] <alex_joni> mine is mcedit
[18:43:17] <SWPadnos> does it do syntax hilighting?
[18:43:33] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that made me hingry
[18:43:37] <SWPadnos> hungry
[18:43:55] <alex_joni> it does
[20:00:58] <jepler> looks like near-vanilla linux kernels are delivering some pretty good latency results ..
http://www.osadl.org/Realtime-Preempt-Kernel.kernel-rt.0.html
[20:01:33] <jepler> getting into the realm where emc/hal systems without BASE_THREADs could run
[20:01:47] <jepler> #Minimum latency: 0 microseconds.
[20:01:48] <jepler> #Average latency: 7 microseconds.
[20:01:48] <jepler> #Maximum latency: 39 microseconds.
[20:01:50] <jepler> #Total samples: 7069336
[20:10:49] <alex_joni> cool
[21:52:02] <jepler> cradek: huh, another user reports "I do something, and then touch-off never works again through the rest of the session"
[22:01:02] <skunkworks> hmm - what do they mean "never works again"?
[22:01:25] <skunkworks> the touch off doesn't pop up - or what they type in doesn't do anything?
[22:01:35] <skunkworks> I have not seen that yet
[22:01:53] <jepler> Click Touch Off for say X axis and attempt to enter 0.125" when I type
[22:01:53] <jepler> the first 0 (zero) an error appears in the popup window saying "bad
[22:01:52] <jepler> number format" once this has occurred I can't add offsets to any axis.
[22:02:00] <jepler> From: "Andy Ibbotson"\
[22:02:28] <skunkworks> he is not entering a o?
[22:03:08] <skunkworks> o.125
[22:04:19] <jepler> I dunno -- that doesn't give the error message he reproduces there
[22:04:27] <skunkworks> darn
[22:06:10] <jepler> good guess though
[22:06:12] <jepler> that's thinking like a user!
[22:07:21] <skunkworks> I have experience with that :)
[22:08:18] <jepler> Here's an interpreter error I haven't seen before: "Null missing after newline"
[22:50:41] <jepler> needless to say this first realtime kernel I built doesn't work
[22:51:01] <jepler> lot of these messages:
[22:51:02] <jepler> [ 2554.132000] Bad page state in process 'kswapd0'
[22:51:02] <jepler> [ 2554.132000] page:c11e8f20 flags:0x40000000 mapping:00000000 mapcount:-1 count:0
[22:51:05] <jepler> [ 2554.132000] Trying to fix it up, but a reboot is needed
[22:51:47] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that seems like a bad message to get
[23:18:47] <jepler> RTAI Testsuite - KERNEL latency (all data in nanoseconds)
[23:18:48] <jepler> RTH| lat min| ovl min| lat avg| lat max| ovl max| overruns
[23:18:48] <jepler> RTD| 0| 0| 131866| 186847751| 186847751| 9921
[23:18:48] <jepler> RTD| 0| 0| 126707| 172760187| 186847751| 19899
[23:18:57] <jepler> talk about unpromising results .. and this is the 50% of the time that it doesn't hard-lock the machine
[23:19:31] <SWPadnos> what kernel/RTAI versions?
[23:19:44] <jepler> 2.6.22.6 and RTAI magma from the last 24 hours
[23:19:49] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[23:19:57] <jepler> 2.6.22.6 is the basis for ubuntu 7.10
[23:20:01] <jepler> or at least the current betas
[23:20:21] <SWPadnos> I had excellent results with cradek's SMP kernel, but I had to rebuild it to add SATA support, and the result is pretty crappy
[23:20:40] <SWPadnos> it does boot and run though
[23:26:02] <jepler> hm the CPU speed shown in dmesg is wrong
[23:26:17] <jepler> grep MHz /proc/cpuinfo
[23:26:17] <jepler> cpu MHz : 2000.000
[23:26:24] <jepler> [ 725.704000] RTAI[sched]: Linux timer freq = 250 (Hz), CPU freq = 1193180 hz.
[23:26:34] <SWPadnos> that looks familiar
[23:26:59] <SWPadnos> is that just misprinted from RTAI?
[23:27:09] <jepler> I did have CPU scaling enabled, but disabling it (setting to "performance") didn't make any difference
[23:27:12] <SWPadnos> ie, clock freq vs. CPU freq?
[23:27:14] <jepler> maybe I should remove it and rebuild
[23:27:23] <SWPadnos> probably
[23:27:47] <SWPadnos> but the CPU can't go that slowly anyway - I think the bottom clock speed is ~1 GHz (at least for the A64 / Opteron)
[23:29:43] <jepler> oh it doesn't say kHz does it
[23:30:01] <SWPadnos> nope
[23:30:08] <jepler> [194617.013612] RTAI[sched_lxrt]: Linux timer freq = 1000 (Hz), CPU freq = 2134658000 hz.
[23:30:08] <SWPadnos> timer tick frequency
[23:30:19] <jepler> ^^ working machine (dapper w/linuxcnc official kernel)
[23:30:29] <SWPadnos> lots of extra zeroes there
[23:30:39] <jepler> cpu MHz: 2134.658
[23:30:47] <jepler> the in-kernel variable is in kHz
[23:30:59] <jepler> at least it was in 2.6.16
[23:31:03] <jepler> or whatever this is
[23:31:07] <jepler> 2.6.15
[23:32:10] <SWPadnos> I wonder why it's sched vs. sched_lxrt
[23:32:21] <SWPadnos> mine says sched also
[23:32:33] <jepler> the configure --enable-sched-<mumble> options seem to be different in current rtai magma
[23:32:40] <jepler> I think my configure-rtai script doesn't work right
[23:32:56] <jepler> or maybe .. something else entirely
[23:33:16] <SWPadnos> ok. that could be. I think I used it here as well :)
[23:52:59] <jepler> man CRTs stink
[23:53:20] <jepler> clearly I need to blow a few hundred dollars and get rid of this CRT in favor of a nice LCD
[23:54:02] <jepler> wtf? ccache is getting nothing but cache misses on this third kernel compile
[23:54:17] <jepler> hit: 38 miss: 10174 and climbing
