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[02:21:50] <jepler> * jepler reads Andy Holcomb's last e-mail, about using touch-off in axis
[02:21:58] <jepler> I can't imagine how it does that
[02:23:17] <cradek> I can't either
[02:24:15] <cradek> I'm trying to build emc2-sim deb on a powerpc
[02:24:58] <cradek> (no idea whether that ought to be possible or not)
[02:25:26] <jmkasunich> boldly go
[02:25:30] <cradek> yep that's the idea
[02:27:35] <cradek> rtapi/rtapi.h: In function ‘void rtapi_mutex_give(long unsigned int*)’:
[02:27:35] <cradek> rtapi/rtapi.h:242: error: ‘test_and_clear_bit’ was not declared in this scope
[02:27:53] <cradek> we've seen this before haven't we?
[02:28:55] <cradek> oh, duh
[02:29:04] <cradek> #if defined(__i386__)
[02:29:11] <jepler> sounds a bit like the one you get building 2.1 on edgy/x86_64 -- fixed on trunk
[02:29:27] <cradek> ok
[02:29:44] <jepler> powerpc eh
[02:30:02] <cradek> yep
[02:30:21] <jepler> is this a favor, or for some machine you actually have?
[02:30:29] <cradek> I actually have it
[02:30:38] <cradek> don't know if it's a keeper or not - just playing mostly
[02:31:07] <cradek> dapper really works nicely - all the built in stuff works, including wireless
[02:31:13] <jepler> beats me if these macros will work in userspace like the x86 and x86-64 do --
http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au/lxr/source/include/asm-powerpc/bitops.h
[02:37:40] <cradek> wonder why I don't get that #error
[02:39:31] <jepler> good question
[02:39:57] <jepler> did you get defined(ASM_BITOPS_H_USABLE)
[02:39:59] <jepler> ?
[02:40:39] <cradek> yes
[02:40:44] <jepler> looks like configure tests that an <asm/bitops.h> is includable without any warnings or errors, not that it has the macros required
[02:41:59] <cradek> /usr/include/asm-ppc/bitops.h is empty
[02:43:51] <jepler> you could try changing configure to see if this test catches that <asm/bitops.h> isn't usable:
[02:43:55] <jepler> AC_TRY_COMPILE([#include <asm/bitops.h>],
[02:43:58] <jepler> - [],
[02:44:00] <jepler> + [test_and_set_bit(0, 0);],
[02:44:01] <jepler> [ASM_BITOPS_H_USABLE=yes],
[02:44:24] <cradek> ok i'm getting trunk to play with
[02:46:05] <cradek> the funny thing about this machine is that it has excellent engineering (strong/clever hinges, handle, ports) but it's the ugliest computer ever made
[02:47:12] <cradek> I wonder if I could sand it down so it has some square corners, then paint it black
[02:48:32] <cradek> and add a few more mouse buttons
[02:50:53] <cradek> hmm, I still get that define
[02:51:14] <cradek> oh, duh, user error
[02:56:02] <cradek> ok now there's no user error but I still get it
[02:56:16] <cradek> configure builds that with -c, which doesn't get any error
[02:56:29] <cradek> if I build it without -c, it does (of course)
[03:38:51] <cradek> argh, I can't get it to work, I'm clueless about this assembly stuff
[13:01:42] <jepler> cradek: I know how you feel about "this assembler stuff", even if I manage to muddle through from time to time.
[14:51:59] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[15:06:50] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[18:12:52] <cradek> jepler: since powerpc support is only for simulator, is there any reason I can't just write these two functions in C?
[18:15:33] <alex_joni> hi chris
[18:16:04] <cradek> hi
[18:17:28] <jepler> cradek: yes, but they have to work properly across processes
[18:18:09] <cradek> jepler: when do you leave?
[18:18:17] <jepler> cradek: in about 5 minutes
[18:18:27] <cradek> safe trip!
[18:18:28] <jepler> thanks
[18:18:45] <alex_joni> safe trip
[18:18:58] <jepler> thanks
[18:19:18] <cradek> and good luck with the keyboards with the Y in the wrong place
[18:19:26] <cradek> or whatever it is
[18:19:51] <alex_joni> cradek: it's not THAT hard to use that
[18:20:04] <alex_joni> and you can always switch to english, and not look at the keys :P
[18:21:07] <jepler> the problem will be all the windows machines I have to use
[18:21:14] <jepler> heaven help me if they're vista
[18:21:15] <jepler> back in a few weeks..
[18:21:52] <cradek> hope he has a nice trip
[19:10:57] <alex_joni> yeah, me too
[19:11:18] <alex_joni> cradek: do you have emergency access just in case?
[19:11:35] <cradek> yes
[19:12:09] <cradek> don't expect trouble though.
[19:12:44] <alex_joni> ok, good
[19:13:00] <alex_joni> me neither, but better safe than sorry
[19:13:14] <alex_joni> although judging by the last commits ...
[20:08:42] <cradek> strange! there's still inb/outb/iopl in iosh.cc - must be legacy stuff
[20:09:06] <jmkasunich> rip it out!
[20:09:12] <alex_joni> hi jmk
[20:09:16] <cradek> ripping :-)
[20:09:52] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[20:10:41] <cradek> hi
[20:11:17] <jmkasunich> so jeff is off on vacation...
[20:11:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: you said something about joomla the other day :P
[20:11:19] <jmkasunich> good for him
[20:11:22] <cradek> yes
[20:11:28] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yes, I did ;-)
[20:11:44] <alex_joni> what was wrong?
[20:12:13] <jmkasunich> google "linuxcnc"
[20:12:22] <jmkasunich> and start looking at the results
[20:12:29] <jmkasunich> the first one is our homepage - thats good
[20:12:42] <jmkasunich> but now other current linuxcnc.org content appears
[20:12:58] <jmkasunich> google knows about old stuff (the 2nd link is an ancient manual)
[20:13:00] <alex_joni> yes, google has a nasty habit of not indexing .php
[20:13:37] <cradek> alex_joni: can you help with a configure thing?
[20:13:41] <jmkasunich> probaby to avoid all that dynamically generated content
[20:13:44] <alex_joni> cradek: I can sure try
[20:14:02] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: there is an option for SEO friendly URLS in joomla
[20:14:16] <alex_joni> but I think I didn't get it to run.. there are some things needed.. I'll look at it
[20:14:22] <alex_joni> cradek: shoot..
[20:14:21] <jmkasunich> thanks
[20:14:34] <cradek> I'd like to change the BITOPS_H_USABLE test to actually try to compile and link a program calling test_and_set_bit(0,0)
[20:14:37] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: it might mean I need to refix some links
[20:14:41] <cradek> right now it only includes the file
[20:14:52] <cradek> (on powerpc the file exists but is empty)
[20:16:40] <alex_joni> and the stuff jepler posted doesn't work?
[20:16:46] <alex_joni> I would have suggested the same
[20:17:04] <cradek> no it doesn't
[20:17:07] <rayh_> rayh_ is now known as rayh
[20:17:08] <cradek> it compiles it with -c
[20:17:14] <jmkasunich> hi ray
[20:17:27] <rayh> Hi John
[20:17:26] <cradek> so it compiles to an object file just fine
[20:17:52] <cradek> alex_joni: I think we have to use AC_CHECK_FUNCS but I don't know how
[20:18:37] <alex_joni> * alex_joni reads through the autoconf docs
[20:20:00] <cradek> ld: objects/classicladder_rt.tmp(.text+0x9c): R_PPC_PLTREL24 reloc against local symbol
[20:20:04] <cradek> objects/classicladder_rt.tmp: could not read symbols: Bad value
[20:20:04] <cradek> uhh?
[20:20:47] <alex_joni> I think you can only check funcs in libraries
[20:20:59] <cradek> alex_joni: i almost got it to work
[20:21:08] <cradek> +AC_CHECK_HEADERS(asm/bitops.h)
[20:21:09] <cradek> +AC_CHECK_FUNCS(test_and_set_bit)
[20:21:09] <cradek> +AC_SUBST(ASM_BITOPS_H_USABLE)
[20:21:22] <alex_joni> cool :)
[20:21:44] <cradek> but it doesn't print the right things to the user
[20:22:23] <alex_joni> which one?
[20:22:52] <cradek> I think there needs to be AC_MSG_RESULT or something
[20:24:02] <alex_joni> AC_CHECK_FUNC(test_and_set_bit,[ASM_BITOPS_H_USABLE=yes],[ASM_BITOPS_H_USEABLE=no])
[20:24:18] <alex_joni> AC_MSG_RESULT($ASM_BITOPS_H_USEABLE)
[20:27:40] <cradek> thanks :-)
[20:28:28] <alex_joni> does that work?
[20:28:42] <cradek> I think so, but it prints some extra junk
[20:29:14] <alex_joni> I think the check headers does that
[20:29:44] <alex_joni> maybe try AC_CHECK_HEADERS(asm/bitops.h, [], [ASM_BITOPS_H_USABLE=no])
[20:29:51] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: better now?
[20:30:32] <alex_joni> I'm not sure I like this way better, but I think google does
[20:30:38] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/blogcategory/15/12/lang,en/ <-new link style
[20:30:56] <alex_joni> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=10&lang=en <- old link style
[20:31:29] <cradek> yay
[20:32:05] <alex_joni> cradek: did that work?
[20:32:32] <cradek> I think so
[20:32:43] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: much better, thank you
[20:32:44] <cradek> the extra junk (some blank lines then "sim") must come from somewhere else
[20:33:08] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is old school - a URL is a path to a file
[20:33:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I see it's not always consistent.. but it works with both
[20:33:23] <alex_joni> so .. I'm not that worried
[20:33:24] <jmkasunich> tain't no ? in a path
[20:34:04] <alex_joni> http://www.google.com/custom?domains=linuxcnc.org&q=emc2&sitesearch=linuxcnc.org&sa=Search&client=pub-noaccount&forid=1&channel=pub-nochannel&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en
[20:34:22] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that shows even some ? in indexed files
[20:34:27] <jmkasunich> retch puke hurl
[20:35:03] <jmkasunich> (I'm retching at the 250 character long URL)
[20:35:33] <alex_joni> guess they pass the icon there :D
[20:36:03] <alex_joni> about 9000 pages indexed by google for linuxcnc.org
[20:36:08] <alex_joni> that's quite a bit
[20:36:09] <jmkasunich> wow
[20:36:20] <jmkasunich> seems like more than really exist
[20:37:26] <alex_joni> no, lots of irc logs
[20:37:30] <alex_joni> and cvs
[20:37:30] <alex_joni> and lxr
[20:37:31] <alex_joni> and wiki
[20:37:38] <alex_joni> and handbook
[20:37:43] <alex_joni> and everything else there
[20:37:52] <jmkasunich> oh
[20:38:11] <jmkasunich> speaking of handbook
[20:38:12] <alex_joni> it's quite a bit of information ;)
[20:38:22] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is not responsible for THAT
[20:38:22] <alex_joni> :P
[20:38:54] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: go on..
[20:39:42] <jmkasunich> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/ shows an integrator manual
[20:39:57] <jmkasunich> but its not linked on the documentation page
[20:40:12] <jmkasunich> in fact, I have no idea how to get to the page I just posted from the homepage
[20:42:22] <alex_joni> then I guess we need to add them links
[20:43:01] <jmkasunich> I should just be quiet, since I don't have anything positive to say....
[20:43:17] <alex_joni> no, I appreciate the pointers
[20:43:38] <jmkasunich> I'm bookmarking
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/
[20:43:42] <alex_joni> * Documentation for the latest EMC version 2.1, in HTML and PDF format, is available.
[20:43:51] <jmkasunich> as my new "preferred way to get to the docs"
[20:44:04] <alex_joni> that's the last entry on the Documentation page
[20:44:12] <alex_joni> and it points to www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1
[20:44:19] <jmkasunich> I see
[20:44:46] <alex_joni> the www.linuxcnc.org/docs/ is more general, but more confusing for new users I think
[20:45:12] <jmkasunich> the prior links on that page, to User Manual, Hal Documentation, go to the trunk versions I think?
[20:45:44] <alex_joni> might be so
[20:45:54] <alex_joni> if you have any oppinion I can easily change that
[20:46:19] <jmkasunich> opinions are cheap - everybody has them
[20:46:45] <alex_joni> I feel like moving the line I just pasted to the top
[20:46:52] <alex_joni> and move the others down
[20:47:20] <jmkasunich> I'd be more inclinced to make the others refer to the 2.1, and say "docs for the latest unreleased version are available"
[20:47:57] <jmkasunich> 95% of the people to whom we find ourselves wanting to say RTFM, need to RTF 2.1 M
[20:48:06] <jmkasunich> that should be the one that is easy to find
[20:48:40] <jmkasunich> I really should learn how to edit joomla, so I can fix instead of bitch
[20:49:06] <alex_joni> I think the pdfs in linuxcnc.org/docs/ are the same ones as in 2.1
[20:49:20] <jmkasunich> if so, thats dumb
[20:51:36] <alex_joni> I changed it right now.. let me know what you think
[20:55:49] <jmkasunich> you moved around the directories too?
[20:55:55] <jmkasunich> why not just change the page?
[20:55:59] <alex_joni> nope.. just changed the page
[20:56:02] <jmkasunich> I like the old dir structure
[20:56:11] <alex_joni> didn't touch the dirs
[20:56:20] <jmkasunich> balony
[20:57:03] <jmkasunich> is
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/ a new dir?
[20:57:25] <alex_joni> no, that's the TRUNK version
[20:58:05] <jmkasunich> so in linuxcnc.org/docs/ we have 2.0/, 2.1/, and decel/, AND we have another copy of the manuals at the top level?
[20:58:17] <jmkasunich> why the duplicate copy at the top level?
[20:58:37] <rayh> question about charge_pump when you get a chance.
[20:58:50] <jmkasunich> rayh: shoot
[20:59:09] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I think the top dir were there first
[20:59:17] <rayh> I want charge pump to reflect the state of emc's estop
[20:59:18] <alex_joni> then jeff added the 2.0, 2.1 and devel
[20:59:45] <jmkasunich> rayh: you want it to stop pumping when emc is in estop?
[20:59:51] <rayh> yep
[21:00:13] <cradek> you could make one with a not block, and turn it on and off with an and
[21:00:37] <jmkasunich> the charge pump component is a simple oscillator - we have two choices - AND its output with a controlling signal, or add an enable pin to chargepump
[21:00:47] <jmkasunich> the latter would only help people using TRUNK, but is cleaner IMO
[21:00:54] <rayh> right i see that.
[21:01:12] <rayh> I was hoping for a pin on charge-pump named enable.
[21:01:23] <jmkasunich> I can add that
[21:01:42] <jmkasunich> hmm, I wonder why jeff made it a singleton?
[21:02:44] <jmkasunich> anyway... adding an enable is easy... making it default to enabled if you don't connect to the pin might be a bit harder - I'll have to read the comp manual
[21:02:56] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich tells /me to RTFM
[21:04:08] <alex_joni> hmm.. there are a lot of people visiting linuxcnc.org
[21:04:16] <alex_joni> right now 200+ visitors
[21:04:49] <jmkasunich> I wonder if all the checking robots that are crawling it right now appear as multiple users?
[21:04:50] <rayh> You can see the growth in popularity from the rash of new names posting to the lists.
[21:05:44] <alex_joni> Year 694335 87330
[21:05:49] <alex_joni> Hits Visitors
[21:05:58] <alex_joni> roughly for the last year
[21:06:06] <cradek> jmkasunich: see match8.comp
[21:06:49] <alex_joni> about 10% open the download page
[21:08:37] <jmkasunich> cradek: thanks - I was reading the pre-2.1.5 version of the comp doc, which showed "= STARTVALUE" for params only
[21:08:38] <alex_joni> about 8% go for docs
[21:08:42] <jmkasunich> current doc shows it for pins too
[21:08:58] <alex_joni> and 5.6% for About
[21:17:06] <alex_joni> heh.. bet those 200+ visitors were robin's webcrawler
[21:18:31] <jmkasunich> not to self - don't use man page markup in a pin's doc string
[21:19:46] <alex_joni> so others may?
[21:35:30] <jmkasunich> rayh: charge-pump with enable is now in TRUNK
[21:35:36] <jmkasunich> sorry it took so long
[21:36:02] <jmkasunich> I missed a }, and in comp its a bit harder to find that kind of error than in straight C, because the error messages are obscure
[22:28:10] <rayh> Hey thanks John.
[22:28:27] <rayh> I'll pick it up right now and try it.
[22:34:24] <cradek> anyone want anything else in 2.1.5?
[22:35:27] <rayh> clever that it starts enabled unless a sig is attached.
[22:38:00] <alex_joni> not sure about the mini fix I just sent
[22:38:14] <alex_joni> and maybe we want to tackle the tkemc G92 stuff?
[22:38:59] <cradek> we'd have to agree what to do before tackling it
[22:43:07] <cradek> I haven't heard yet what ray wants to do - and he's clearly busy with something else - so it's probably not the time to try to get something in there at the last second
[22:43:15] <alex_joni> yeah, I agree
[22:43:23] <rayh> I can talk for a few.
[22:43:28] <alex_joni> but I don't see the need for an urgent 2.1.5 though
[22:43:53] <rayh> the solution that axis uses is to change g54 when you right click.
[22:44:09] <alex_joni> I wonder if we shouldn't wait a bit for more stuff to pop up
[22:44:12] <cradek> ... when you push the touch-off button
[22:45:00] <cradek> yeah maybe we should wait another week?
[22:45:01] <rayh> does axis try to deal with any of the other coord systems?
[22:45:13] <rayh> Okay by me.
[22:45:19] <cradek> no the gui doesn't do any special handling of the others
[22:46:20] <rayh> It's probably just the quirky way I use g54 that makes me worry.
[22:46:22] <cradek> axis's touch-off is useful for the usual program that runs at one default work offset
[22:46:49] <rayh> Right and I can see the value of that for many users.
[22:47:50] <rayh> This week in a couple of programs I was using three at a time. And g54 was my machine home.
[22:48:02] <rayh> that way I don't have to do something like
[22:48:07] <rayh> g53 z0
[22:48:14] <rayh> g53 y0
[22:48:16] <rayh> g53 x0
[22:48:27] <rayh> to get away from the work.
[22:48:58] <cradek> g28 z0 might do what you want in that case
[22:49:34] <cradek> when doing something like that as an advanced user, do you not use g92 or rightclick at all?
[22:50:13] <rayh> I don't use g92 cause it's difficult.
[22:50:29] <rayh> I use teach in either tkemc or mini
[22:50:55] <alex_joni> rayh: can you describe the exact steps?
[22:50:55] <rayh> but I leave g54 alone so when I need machine home I can get it.
[22:51:02] <cradek> what do you suggest we do to fix these common questions about rightclick in tkemc?
[22:51:33] <alex_joni> maybe only rightclick needs to go away, and the rest doesn't need touching?
[22:52:20] <rayh> I've always imagined tkemc giving the widest possible range of reach into the EMC part of EMC2.
[22:52:36] <rayh> I've never thought of it as a machine control
[22:53:25] <rayh> I imagine a machine control having a subset of emc abilities.
[22:53:25] <alex_joni> that's new imo
[22:53:43] <rayh> and that is what axis does.
[22:54:00] <rayh> It gives the user the ability to use only one of the coord systems.
[22:54:10] <cradek> that's not true
[22:54:22] <alex_joni> cradek: ray talks about GUI here..
[22:54:23] <rayh> You still have the ability to use others through g code.
[22:54:26] <cradek> you can use the systems however you want. You set them with mdi.
[22:54:28] <cradek> right
[22:54:38] <alex_joni> I think the mini teach can let you select which coord you use
[22:54:53] <cradek> if axis would let you set any system, would you be ok with making it the default for stepper/inch and stepper/mm?
[22:55:23] <cradek> I think axis is good for new users
[22:55:38] <rayh> I don't doubt that.
[22:55:43] <cradek> if that's all that you dislike about it, it can be fixed
[22:56:16] <rayh> No my dislike has little to do with the future of emc2
[22:56:36] <rayh> you, we need to consider wide audience.
[22:56:46] <alex_joni> rayh: your oppinion is one of the appreciated ones
[22:57:01] <alex_joni> so it's good to hear your concearns
[22:57:10] <cradek> right now I'm thinking only about the default settings for new users - advanced users can do all sorts of things
[22:57:11] <alex_joni> (in a productive way ;-)
[22:57:12] <rayh> And if we changed default interface for stepper and most sims to axis.
[22:57:20] <rayh> I'd probably bitch but...
[22:58:01] <cradek> but? :-)
[22:58:46] <rayh> I guess the only real coordinate issue I've got is how to get rid of trash when some unexpected offset happens.
[22:59:05] <rayh> In tkemc and mini I can look at all of the coordinate offsets and zero them out.
[22:59:18] <alex_joni> that's a SMOP
[22:59:53] <alex_joni> but it wouldn't be something bad to add to AXIS..
[23:00:21] <cradek> using the same touch-off scheme but with a specified coordinate system would be nice
[23:00:25] <rayh> If we had a menu item that would do that from mini, I think I'd be able to say, well push that it see if it goes away.
[23:00:49] <cradek> you could then use your probe/wobbler to teach your fixtures just like touch-off
[23:01:15] <rayh> tkemc and mini use a reset to clean out or change these so that both the var file and the global variables match up again.
[23:02:36] <cradek> long ago we had a bug that would nuke the var file (5220) but I'm pretty sure that is gone -- I have not had a screwed up file with emc2
[23:03:18] <alex_joni> rayh: so basicly you're talking about a dialog with a table on it which holds all coords offsets, and user can see them easily, change them, etc
[23:03:19] <rayh> I remember some of those, it would write 0 in 5220 and you couldn't get emc to run again.
[23:03:39] <cradek> rayh: right I saw that too, but not for a long time
[23:04:20] <rayh> Yes. And I don't think we need to even teach axis users about 55-59 just make it possible for them to clean out the garbage.
[23:04:37] <alex_joni> rayh: that's quite easy imho
[23:04:39] <cradek> let me think about a good design for touch-off for any system
[23:04:50] <rayh> Sure.
[23:05:10] <alex_joni> cradek: how about having radio buttons for the coord system on the touch-off dialog
[23:05:16] <alex_joni> G54 selected by default
[23:05:20] <rayh> If you get one, how about it zeroing out g92 any time axis starts up.
[23:05:48] <alex_joni> rayh: shouldn't M2 do that on shutdown?
[23:05:49] <cradek> rayh: I think g92 is not applied by default at startup??
[23:06:03] <cradek> I could be wrong
[23:06:57] <rayh> I saw some really quirky stuff but most of my work this week was with old BDI.
[23:07:11] <cradek> emc1?
[23:07:22] <alex_joni> "Sometimes the values of a G92 offset get stuck in the VAR file. When this happens reset or a startup will cause them to become active again."
[23:07:25] <rayh> I'd have to take the time to see what a g92 offset in the var file does on startup.
[23:07:38] <alex_joni> that's from
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/gcode/coordinates/index.html
[23:09:13] <rayh> The whole implementation of 92 is really difficult to use so probably it should changed.
[23:10:01] <rayh> I tried to figure out what the "bug" in it was but when I set it up like the spec said, it worked pretty much as advertised.
[23:10:13] <cradek> I've used it within a program (cleared at the end), but having the gui let people manipulate it seems to just lead to trouble
[23:10:15] <alex_joni> I *think* the main problem with G92/tkemc is that the user has no idea what happens when he right clicks the display
[23:10:33] <cradek> yeah I read your paper describing the tests - I also agree it works as it's defined
[23:10:54] <rayh> exactly/genau The problem IMO is that it is a very complex concept.
[23:11:11] <alex_joni> rayh: when a user right-clicks the display, he has no idea that the offset he enters will vanish after he stops/reloads the file
[23:11:23] <alex_joni> or that it might cause bigger problems on restart
[23:11:41] <cradek> yes it took a lot of readings of the spec to understand how the coord systems all work. a new user just isn't going to know all that (nor does he need to!)
[23:11:40] <rayh> unless he uses g92.x or
[23:11:47] <alex_joni> I think the proper solution for this would to pop up the coords dialog on right-click
[23:11:51] <rayh> I can't even keep em sorted out.
[23:11:52] <alex_joni> rayh: he has no way of knowing that
[23:12:08] <alex_joni> * alex_joni talks about new users now
[23:12:33] <rayh> The axis solution is a good one for new users.
[23:12:57] <cradek> rayh: so it's ok with you that I change the default gui for stepper?
[23:13:09] <anonimasu> well, how about datumtalbes?
[23:13:13] <anonimasu> datum tables?
[23:13:20] <rayh> * rayh bites his tongue.
[23:13:23] <alex_joni> and the tkemc/mini solution for multiple coord offsets is a good one for existing users
[23:14:23] <alex_joni> cradek: the _only_ problem I see is for people building emc2 without python & co installed
[23:14:37] <cradek> rayh: we could vote or something but that seems silly to me
[23:14:36] <rayh> As an old time emc user, I have my ways and they are not the axis ways.
[23:14:43] <alex_joni> the configure script will continue, and they'll get a working system..
[23:14:50] <alex_joni> not the same can be said about tcl
[23:14:54] <rayh> no need to vote
[23:14:57] <cradek> rayh: you also know how to easily configure it to use any gui
[23:15:09] <cradek> rayh: I don't think it's the experienced users we have to worry about at all
[23:15:42] <rayh> I think we have to worry a lot about shop folk.
[23:16:02] <rayh> because none of the existing gui's work like a shop machine tool.
[23:16:10] <anonimasu> agreed
[23:17:01] <rayh> Axis works pretty much like a PC program so folk who do other PC things can appreciate it.
[23:17:17] <rayh> It has a great tool path display.
[23:17:47] <anonimasu> if we are taking a more machine-tool-ish display touchscreen usage and stuff should be considered..
[23:18:18] <cradek> anonimasu: we're trying to decide what's best for new users who are just seeing emc for the first time
[23:18:38] <rayh> I wish I had the ability to write python and adjust it to my liking.
[23:19:03] <rayh> I'm really on anomimasu's way of thinking here.
[23:19:12] <anonimasu> cradek: yes, but I agree with rayh.. it's not nearly anything like a professional control..
[23:19:35] <cradek> we have a wide range of users with a wide range of expectations
[23:19:42] <cradek> we won't make them all happy at once
[23:19:50] <cradek> but I like the sim/xxxxx configs that show all the gui options
[23:20:04] <rayh> No and that is why we need to preserve the ability to use more than one kind.
[23:20:14] <anonimasu> cradek: axis is all great but if you look at it it's not reallu useable..
[23:20:19] <cradek> what I want to do is change the default gui for stepper only. no industrial users are using stepper anyway.
[23:20:27] <cradek> (I hope)
[23:20:42] <alex_joni> anonimasu: why is that?
[23:20:48] <rayh> The system I'm building now is stepper powered.
[23:20:49] <anonimasu> mouse navigation..
[23:20:57] <anonimasu> small buttong making touchscreen usage a pain..
[23:21:00] <anonimasu> buttons..
[23:21:05] <rayh> I don't like it but price point is king.
[23:21:07] <cradek> all the guis require a bit of mouse, but are better used through keyboard
[23:21:36] <cradek> anonimasu: the typical new user with a stepper machine will not have a touchscreen. he will have a mouse.
[23:21:49] <cradek> you're one of the other audiences I was talking about.
[23:22:22] <rayh> This is a good topic for discussion.
[23:22:37] <anonimasu> cradek: I like axis very very much..
[23:22:44] <rayh> I would like to see us produce a great system for guys who use fanuc or siemens.
[23:23:10] <anonimasu> cradek: it's easy to use and works like most pc applications..
[23:23:11] <rayh> I'm sure that the newbie would be reluctant.
[23:23:20] <anonimasu> cradek: but if I were to implement a gui at a machine tool I sure wouldnt run axis..
[23:23:24] <rayh> And Axis can fill that need.
[23:23:25] <anonimasu> like commercially..
[23:23:25] <cradek> I'd be happy to see someone write a fanuc-a-like gui. it would have to be someone with knowledge I don't have
[23:23:33] <alex_joni> http://www.foremostmachinery.com/Images/Products/JFYRTFanuccontrol.jpg <- would that be a Fanuc GUI ?
[23:23:49] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:24:11] <anonimasu> they dont look too nice right?
[23:24:21] <rayh> Yep and that one is even getting cluttered.
[23:24:36] <anonimasu> still they do what they should, run a machine
[23:24:47] <alex_joni> http://www.shodausa.com/images/fanuc2.jpg
[23:25:36] <cradek> you'll never hear me say I don't want people to write more gui options for emc
[23:26:01] <cradek> that's the only way, because no one gui will please everyone
[23:26:26] <rayh> One chinese factory I visited said they liked one "local" control best because it was easy to run.
[23:26:53] <cradek> before axis, I happily used xemc
[23:26:56] <rayh> So I asked to stand beside a lathe operator while she worked.
[23:27:09] <alex_joni> and this is siemens?
http://www.knuth.de/prod_img/steuerungen/Siemens802d.jpg
[23:27:17] <rayh> The major pages she used were tool offsets and program edit.
[23:28:02] <rayh> Sometimes she would mdi for some specific purpose.
[23:28:32] <rayh> Then back to auto and cycle start.
[23:28:57] <rayh> It is possible to accomplish some of the motions she used with the keyboard.
[23:29:09] <rayh> but dedicated panels reduce error.
[23:29:31] <rayh> I think reducing the possibiltiy of error is the key thing for a commercial gui.
[23:31:13] <alex_joni> ok, so to summarize it before I go to bed ;)
[23:31:15] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:31:31] <alex_joni> we need to extend AXIS to allow touch-off for other coord offsets
[23:31:55] <alex_joni> we need to add a dialog to AXIS to edit/clear out coords offsets (g54,g55, etc)
[23:32:27] <alex_joni> we need to make tkemc right click bring up something else than the current G92 offset applier
[23:33:03] <alex_joni> we need a new GUI for shop floor setups (not something for this night :)
[23:33:28] <anonimasu> alex_joni: perferably with different modes for auto/mdi/manual..
[23:33:42] <cradek> and rayh will grumble but not object to changing the stepper sample config gui to axis
[23:33:57] <anonimasu> hitting cycle start in the wrong place shouldnt cut your hand off ;)
[23:34:00] <rayh> sounds good to me.
[23:34:35] <cradek> great conversation guys, thanks
[23:34:55] <rayh> There will not be a lot of agreement among commercial users about the look and feel of that gui.
[23:35:13] <alex_joni> anonimasu: there are different modes for manual/mdi/auto
[23:35:15] <cradek> yes it's good we have other options
[23:35:21] <rayh> some like heidenhein, other fanuc, others siemens, others haas.
[23:35:39] <cradek> and it sounds like maybe they need an option we don't even have yet
[23:35:57] <anonimasu> we dont need to copy a commercial interface, though but it's sane to have one that works similiarly to one..
[23:36:09] <rayh> Exactly.
[23:36:23] <anonimasu> also, the safety stuff..
[23:36:35] <rayh> One that separates out functions and minimizes the possibility of bad mouse clicks.
[23:36:35] <anonimasu> auto isnt a separate mode..
[23:36:54] <anonimasu> alex_joni: if I hit start in manual or mdi the machine will start right?
[23:36:57] <anonimasu> by mistake..
[23:36:57] <alex_joni> no
[23:37:08] <anonimasu> or is that onlu in manuall..
[23:37:20] <alex_joni> you can't go to manual or mdi while the machine is stopped
[23:37:26] <alex_joni> err.. I mean paused
[23:37:39] <alex_joni> or you mean starting a new program?
[23:37:43] <rayh> In the original tkemc start or program load would not switch mode.
[23:38:14] <rayh> but switching mode from auto could raise all kinds of havoc.
[23:38:47] <rayh> I do allow program edits while mini is running auto
[23:38:48] <anonimasu> alex_joni: Well, auto shouldnt be easy to go to from manual, you may be having your hand close to the spindle with a piece of paper..
[23:39:04] <anonimasu> for setting zero as a example..
[23:39:12] <rayh> but if the interpreter is not idle it asks if you really want to kill of the current run.
[23:39:51] <rayh> But I agree with alex's list and with chris's thought that we need an easier than tkemc for newbies.
[23:40:04] <anonimasu> yep
[23:40:48] <rayh> Well listen guys, I'm sitting in a warehouse that is rapidly getting down to 40f.
[23:40:55] <cradek> eek
[23:41:01] <alex_joni> rayh: thanks a LOT for the talk
[23:41:19] <rayh> You bet. I've missed these "talks."
[23:41:53] <rayh> I'd hesistate to complexify axis a lot for the newbie.
[23:42:27] <cradek> my goal would be foremost keeping it as clear and easy to use as possible
[23:42:53] <rayh> I didn't even like the idea of allowing all the pyvcp stuff crowding the image.
[23:43:12] <alex_joni> rayh: newbies surely won't use that
[23:43:18] <cradek> I feel that way too, but that's an advanced user thing only
[23:43:40] <cradek> flexibility + simple defaults = winning combination
[23:44:30] <anonimasu> cradek: what kind of toolkit do you use for axis?
[23:44:34] <anonimasu> gtk?
[23:44:36] <alex_joni> I found some movies here:
http://www.festo-didactic.com/de-de/lernsysteme/cnc-technik/emco-cnc-technik/software.htm
[23:44:38] <alex_joni> anonimasu: Tkinter
[23:44:38] <cradek> tk
[23:44:48] <anonimasu> ok
[23:44:56] <alex_joni> would those be consistent with shop-typed machines?
[23:45:04] <anonimasu> let me see
[23:45:11] <cradek> brb
[23:45:46] <rayh> I'm lined up for the Bejing tool show again this year.
[23:46:17] <rayh> I promise to take and put up pictures of controls.
[23:46:23] <alex_joni> rayh: great
[23:47:15] <rayh> I only saw one PC based control at IMTS last year that I liked.
[23:47:30] <rayh> and it was running an edm
[23:47:38] <anonimasu> hm..
[23:47:48] <roltek> alex what are we talking about
[23:47:51] <rayh> touch was good cause it took hours to run a program.
[23:48:08] <anonimasu> alex_joni: well, _remotely_
[23:48:22] <rayh> Hi roltek
[23:48:28] <alex_joni> anonimasu: they emulate siemens and fanuc controls :P
[23:48:43] <roltek> hi ray
[23:48:45] <anonimasu> they dont look like dos programs in the real world :D
[23:48:52] <roltek> how are you doing
[23:48:58] <rayh> we got started talking about the look and feel of some commercial tool controls.
[23:49:10] <rayh> Good.
[23:49:37] <roltek> in what respect
[23:49:50] <alex_joni> roltek: GUI
[23:50:06] <rayh> Mostly the differences between PC look and feel and a Fanuc like.
[23:50:31] <roltek> there's been aloot of changes over the last ten years
[23:50:50] <rayh> I'm with Chris that we need a PC look for the first visit by newbies.
[23:51:04] <roltek> alot of them went to touch but know there changing back
[23:51:24] <alex_joni> * alex_joni changes back to sleep mode
[23:51:26] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:51:27] <rayh> Swarf and coolant will kill touch in a big hurry.
[23:51:41] <rayh> Catch you later alex. Sleep well.
[23:51:46] <roltek> true and scratched sreens
[23:51:52] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:52:07] <alex_joni> thanks.. night all
[23:52:10] <rayh> Gotta get some food and warmth. I'll probably not be back till morning.
[23:52:23] <alex_joni> morning is so close ...
[23:52:32] <alex_joni> :-)
[23:52:35] <rayh> closer there than here.
[23:52:47] <anonimasu> alex_joni: that looks like some controls, but it's hard to get a idea how they actually work..
[23:52:49] <alex_joni> 3am here
[23:52:51] <anonimasu> without keyboards/keys and stuff
[23:53:02] <anonimasu> remotely..
[23:53:24] <roltek> they don't use as many hard wired buttons any more
[23:53:42] <rayh> * rayh really away!
[23:53:50] <roltek> we didn't use many on the old k and t' either
[23:54:22] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:54:44] <roltek> i personly like hard eired button's but they cost more
[23:54:51] <roltek> wired
[23:55:17] <anonimasu> alex_joni: you should probably find a haas userguide/fanuc/heidenhain..
[23:55:31] <anonimasu> alex_joni: for better idea about it :)
[23:59:03] <anonimasu> *yawn*
