#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-12-25

[00:00:39] <Zectbumo> hi
[00:01:20] <Zectbumo> who do I talk to about puting something in the EMC manual?
[00:01:41] <Zectbumo> it is lacking information about the ~/emc2/configs directory
[00:01:42] <Zectbumo> it took me a long time to figure that out
[00:02:26] <Zectbumo> the _only_ mention of this directory is in the EMC manual was under the 8.7 Python Modules section
[00:02:52] <Zectbumo> then I found clear documentation in http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Configuring_EMC2
[00:03:14] <cradek> hi Zectbumo
[00:03:20] <Zectbumo> hi
[00:03:29] <cradek> here is some information about how to contribute to the documentation: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BeyondWiki
[00:03:50] <cradek> we're always happy to get documentation contributions
[00:04:01] <cradek> especially right now, as we're preparingto release version 2.1
[00:04:48] <Zectbumo> oh ok, I think I might do that then
[00:05:06] <cradek> that would be great
[00:06:01] <Zectbumo> thanks cradek
[00:06:22] <cradek> you're welcome, thanks for offering to fix it instead of just complaining :-)
[00:14:06] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: I'm back
[00:14:42] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: did you automate the loading of rtai_smi ?
[00:14:48] <jmkasunich> no
[00:15:03] <alex_joni> good :) care to try something?
[00:15:21] <jmk-st> ok
[00:15:23] <alex_joni> promise I'll help you fix it .. if it breaks
[00:15:31] <jmk-st> that's so encouraging
[00:15:54] <alex_joni> ok, you still have the rtai sources in your home dir.. right?
[00:15:54] <jmk-st> which box do you want me to try on?
[00:16:05] <alex_joni> along with the newly built rtai_smi.ko
[00:16:10] <jmk-st> yes
[00:16:12] <alex_joni> jmk-st: the one with problems
[00:16:18] <jmk-st> right - this one
[00:16:25] <alex_joni> ok, leave that there
[00:16:36] <alex_joni> download this package: http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/~juve/tempdebs/rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma_3.3-2+aj4_i386.deb
[00:16:53] <jmk-st> download as in apt-get install? or just copy the file?
[00:17:26] <alex_joni> wget it
[00:17:40] <alex_joni> then sudo dpkg -i rtai-modules-*.deb
[00:17:54] <alex_joni> it's not in the repo yet
[00:17:55] <jmk-st> I firefoxed it - so there!
[00:18:04] <jmk-st> on the desktop now
[00:18:23] <alex_joni> sudo dpkg -i foo.deb
[00:18:59] <jmk-st> jmkasunich@shoptask:~$ sudo dpkg -i /home/jmkasunich/Desktop/rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma_3.3-2+aj4_i386.deb
[00:19:00] <jmk-st> Password:
[00:19:00] <jmk-st> (Reading database ... 92875 files and directories currently installed.)
[00:19:00] <jmk-st> Preparing to replace rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma 3.3-1+aj4 (using .../rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma_3.3-2+aj4_i386.deb) ...
[00:19:00] <jmk-st> Unpacking replacement rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma ...
[00:19:02] <jmk-st> Setting up rtai-modules-2.6.15-magma (3.3-2+aj4) ...
[00:19:53] <jmk-st> now what?
[00:20:02] <alex_joni> ok, now it's installed
[00:20:08] <alex_joni> do a "modinfo rtai_smi"
[00:20:44] <jmk-st> do I need to give the path to the module?
[00:20:50] <alex_joni> hope not
[00:20:55] <jmk-st> jmkasunich@shoptask:~$ modinfo rtai_smi
[00:20:55] <jmk-st> modinfo: could not find module rtai_smi
[00:21:00] <alex_joni> just try it (depmod should have done it's thing)
[00:21:02] <cradek> uh-oh
[00:21:19] <alex_joni> maybe try "sudo depmod"
[00:21:27] <alex_joni> cradek: it should have worked .. right?
[00:21:33] <jmk-st> I was running the latency test (with my local copy of the module installed) during the dpkg
[00:21:42] <jmk-st> I shut it down when I realized what was going on
[00:21:47] <jmk-st> maybe that's the problem?
[00:21:50] <alex_joni> hmmm..
[00:22:02] <jmk-st> how do I un-do the dkpg -i?
[00:22:02] <alex_joni> did you get any info that there's a file in use or such?
[00:22:11] <alex_joni> you don't :)
[00:22:19] <jmk-st> no, I pasted the results here
[00:22:33] <alex_joni> try modinfo /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_smi.ko
[00:23:06] <alex_joni> (path from memory, might be off)
[00:23:24] <jmk-st> modinfo with the path worked
[00:23:33] <jmk-st> jmkasunich@shoptask:~$ modinfo /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_smi.ko
[00:23:33] <jmk-st> filename: /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_smi.ko
[00:23:33] <jmk-st> license: GPL
[00:23:33] <jmk-st> vermagic: 2.6.15-magma 586TSC gcc-4.0
[00:23:33] <jmk-st> depends:
[00:23:33] <jmk-st> parm: smiDisableMask:i
[00:23:36] <jmk-st> parm: smiReset:i
[00:23:41] <alex_joni> ok, good
[00:24:04] <alex_joni> try sudo insmod /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/rtai_smi.ko smiDisableMask=1 smiReset=1
[00:24:19] <alex_joni> first make sure the old one isn't still loaded
[00:24:43] <jmk-st> its not - I rmmoded it right after I shut down the latency test
[00:25:15] <alex_joni> ok, insmod the new one as above
[00:25:19] <alex_joni> and run the test again
[00:26:17] <jmk-st> running
[00:26:46] <jmk-st> btw (while we wait for 64 seconds)
[00:26:51] <alex_joni> heh
[00:26:59] <jmk-st> jmkasunich@shoptask:/$ sudo dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/dev/null
[00:26:59] <jmk-st> Password:
[00:26:59] <jmk-st> 37608102+0 records in
[00:26:59] <jmk-st> 37608102+0 records out
[00:26:59] <jmk-st> 19255348224 bytes (19 GB) copied, 1020.87 seconds, 18.9 MB/s
[00:27:14] <jmk-st> doesn't 18.9M/sec seem slow for reading the disk
[00:27:29] <alex_joni> not that slow
[00:27:31] <SWPadnos> what generation of drive?
[00:27:41] <alex_joni> if it were under 5M I'd be concearned
[00:27:46] <jmk-st> WD200
[00:27:58] <SWPadnos> hmm - that's only ~2-3 years old?
[00:27:59] <jmk-st> made in Oct 2000
[00:28:04] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: ata 4 or 5
[00:28:07] <SWPadnos> oh, 6YO - that's a fine transfer rate
[00:28:13] <jmk-st> ok
[00:28:30] <jmk-st> well, latency max is 20uS
[00:28:39] <alex_joni> jmk-st: good, so it works
[00:28:43] <jmk-st> yeah
[00:28:53] <jmk-st> how is this one different than the one we made?
[00:29:07] <alex_joni> I added another insmod param
[00:29:12] <jmk-st> passing the mask as a param instead of #define?
[00:29:19] <alex_joni> so you can specify those #defines at insmod time
[00:29:20] <alex_joni> yeah
[00:29:25] <alex_joni> and packaged it :)
[00:29:55] <jmk-st> any clue why modinfo can't find it?
[00:29:57] <alex_joni> the problem with it is that you need to pass smiDiasableMask=1 to it
[00:30:01] <alex_joni> did you try depmod?
[00:30:22] <jmk-st> yeah, sudo depmod ran with no errors, but modinfo still didn't see the module
[00:30:52] <jmk-st> it can't find any of the rtai modules
[00:30:54] <alex_joni> try removing it, and see if modprobe finds it
[00:31:00] <jmk-st> (just tried rtai_lxrt)
[00:31:06] <alex_joni> maybe modinfo only looks in /lib/modules/...
[00:31:12] <alex_joni> this is outside
[00:31:32] <jmk-st> removing? you mean rmmod rtai_smi?
[00:31:48] <jmk-st> I'm sure that will work - rmmod doesn't look in disk,it looks at loaded modules
[00:31:49] <alex_joni> yeah
[00:32:00] <alex_joni> I was curious about the next modprobe
[00:32:03] <alex_joni> not the rmmod :)
[00:32:07] <alex_joni> modprobe rtai_smi
[00:32:46] <jmk-st> well, rmmod worked
[00:32:50] <jmk-st> and now I have bad latency
[00:33:00] <alex_joni> ok
[00:33:29] <jmk-st> jmkasunich@shoptask:~$ modprobe rtai_smi
[00:33:29] <jmk-st> FATAL: Module rtai_smi not found.
[00:33:29] <jmk-st> jmkasunich@shoptask:~$ modprobe rtai_smi.ko
[00:33:29] <jmk-st> FATAL: Module rtai_smi.ko not found.
[00:33:48] <alex_joni> yeah ok, seems they don't look outside /lib/modules/..
[00:34:34] <alex_joni> https://mail.comedi.org/pipermail/comedi/2005-March/006925.html
[00:36:38] <alex_joni> I say don't bother more about it
[00:36:57] <jmk-st> he has the same problem, but unless I'm being dense I don't see an answer
[00:37:01] <alex_joni> ok, back to the issue at hand :)
[00:37:06] <alex_joni> no, no answer there
[00:37:15] <alex_joni> just ignoring the issue is best
[00:37:23] <jmk-st> I can do that just fine
[00:37:26] <alex_joni> we (emc) already use insmod and the full path
[00:37:30] <alex_joni> so it's a non-issue
[00:37:54] <alex_joni> another issue though
[00:38:02] <alex_joni> how are we gonna tell users to use this module?
[00:38:27] <jmk-st> rtapi.conf?
[00:38:41] <alex_joni> hmm.. that won't work anymore :/
[00:38:57] <alex_joni> rtapi.conf way of doing things (at the moment) doesn't allow params to the modules
[00:39:17] <jmk-st> * jmk-st can't remember where the installed copy of rtapi.conf is
[00:39:24] <jmk-st> cd ..
[00:39:33] <alex_joni> hmm.. me neither :D
[00:39:38] <alex_joni> somewhere in /etc
[00:39:44] <jmk-st> /etc/emc2
[00:40:08] <alex_joni> ok
[00:40:13] <jmk-st> I found a bug!
[00:40:18] <jmk-st> from my installed rtapi.conf:
[00:40:26] <jmk-st> EMC2_HOME=/home/chris/emc2-2.0.5
[00:40:30] <jmk-st> chris?!?
[00:40:50] <alex_joni> huh
[00:41:12] <alex_joni> guess he packaged it :/
[00:41:17] <alex_joni> but that smells like a bug
[00:41:28] <jmkasunich> same on this box
[00:41:35] <jmkasunich> and I bet on every installation of 2.05
[00:41:46] <jmkasunich> obviously that variable isn't actually used anywhere ;-)
[00:42:35] <alex_joni> might be
[00:42:47] <alex_joni> might be used in RIP though
[00:43:11] <jmkasunich> could be, but in RIP, its generated by configure, so it points to the right place
[00:43:31] <alex_joni> same here I think
[00:43:43] <alex_joni> (generated by configure)
[00:43:57] <alex_joni> and it is the path for emc2 and from where configure was run
[00:46:15] <jmk-st> regarding how to let people use the smi module...
[00:46:39] <jmk-st> suppose we add a variable "SMI_MASK=foo" to rtapi.conf
[00:47:08] <jmk-st> and change scripts/realtime, so if it sees that variable defined, it automatically loads the module, passing the variable as the parameter
[00:47:23] <jmk-st> if the var isn't defined, it does nothing
[00:47:39] <jmk-st> then all the user needs to do is edit rtapi.conf to add the variable
[00:47:51] <jmk-st> which can be described to them on the troubleshooting page of the wiki
[00:48:22] <alex_joni> sounds good enough
[00:48:36] <alex_joni> but it also means we need to detect rtai_smi.ko from configure
[00:51:40] <jmk-st> I just had a thought....
[00:52:00] <jmk-st> scripts/realtime is (maybe) in the wrong place
[00:52:17] <jmk-st> it shouldn't be a part of the emc2 package, it should be a part of the rtai package
[00:52:34] <jmk-st> maybe
[00:52:56] <jmk-st> maybe not
[00:53:29] <jmk-st> I was thinking "why should emc2 need to figure out all the subtleties of the realtime installation?"
[00:53:34] <alex_joni> right
[00:53:36] <alex_joni> it shouldn't
[00:54:03] <alex_joni> maybe a thing to add to modprobe.d to make it load by default
[00:54:05] <jmk-st> but if somebody does their own rtai installation, they sure won't cooperate with us by giving us a nice realtime script
[00:54:12] <alex_joni> :)
[00:57:54] <alex_joni> jmk-st: does that module load without any rtai modules loaded?
[00:58:01] <jmkasunich> ?
[00:59:02] <jmk-st> do you mean "can I load the SMI module before I load any other RTAI modules"?
[00:59:07] <jmk-st> if so, the answer is yes
[00:59:28] <jmk-st> (thats what happens - I insmod the SMI module, then the latency test insmods the other stuff it needs to run
[00:59:34] <alex_joni> ok
[00:59:46] <alex_joni> so loading the SMI module can happen at boot time.. right?
[00:59:47] <jmk-st> when I exit the latency test, it rmmods its stuff, and leaves the SMI module for me to manually rmmod
[01:00:10] <jmk-st> seems like you could load it a boot
[01:00:24] <alex_joni> then I say it should not be in emc2
[01:00:30] <alex_joni> or even triggered from there
[01:00:41] <jmk-st> btw, why is the module name (once loaded) "smi_rt" instead of "rtai_smi"?
[01:01:41] <alex_joni> RTAI sweet ways of fscking up things
[01:01:57] <jmk-st> 'nuff said, forget I asked
[01:02:38] <alex_joni> although I have nfc why smi_rt is the name
[01:02:57] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich calls his ISP....
[01:03:41] <alex_joni> guess it was called that sometimes in the past smi_rt.ko
[01:04:27] <alex_joni> https://mail.rtai.org/pipermail/rtai/2006-September/015815.html
[01:10:04] <jepler> I'm driving a LED with the output of my pluto's "pwm" signal. with pwm-0-value = 0.1 the brightness is visibly different between pwm and pdm. should I suspect I have a bug, or that the LED is also a device with a time to turn on and off?
[01:13:08] <jmkasunich> PWM is brighter than PDM?
[01:13:16] <jepler> yes
[01:13:39] <jmkasunich> how fast is the PDM clock
[01:13:55] <jmkasunich> IOW,how long are the individual "chunks" of on time?
[01:14:11] <jepler> 1ns I think
[01:14:23] <jepler> I swap all but the low 2 bytes and the fundamental clock is 40MHz
[01:14:28] <jmkasunich> 1GHz? I don't think so ;-)
[01:14:33] <jepler> 1us I think
[01:14:49] <jmkasunich> 10MHz = 100nS
[01:15:02] <jepler> .1uS I think
[01:15:03] <jepler> man
[01:15:08] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:15:08] <jepler> I haven't had any spiked eggnog, I swear
[01:15:12] <alex_joni> .1us = 100ns
[01:15:34] <jmkasunich> damned ISP.... every 30 seconds "please wait"
[01:16:54] <jmkasunich> does the scope say you are getting 100nS on and about 900nS off (with some jitter I imagine, sometimes 800nS off, sometimes more, etc)
[01:19:35] <jepler> at .5uS/div, it's about 2.5 divs between "high"s
[01:19:53] <jepler> and a "high" is around 1/4 or 1/5 div
[01:20:24] <jmkasunich> the high time seems right
[01:20:33] <jmkasunich> 100nS = 1/5 of 0.5uS
[01:20:54] <jmkasunich> but 2.5 * 0.5 = 1.25uS = 1250nS, compared to the 900 or so I was expecting
[01:21:31] <jmkasunich> of course, if you're not getting solid triggering (and on that waveform you probably won't) its hard to tell
[01:21:54] <jmkasunich> how many bits is your master counter?
[01:22:29] <jepler> it counts 0 .. 2046
[01:22:39] <jmkasunich> not 2047?
[01:22:48] <jepler> no
[01:23:03] <jmkasunich> anyway, try sending 1.0/2046 (or 2047) to a PDM channel
[01:23:05] <alex_joni> wth does a module take it's name from?
[01:23:16] <jepler> so that I can load 2047 in the "compare to" register and get 100% duty
[01:23:28] <jmkasunich> that should get you a single pulse every full cycle of the counter
[01:24:19] <jmkasunich> the period should be 204.7uS (~KHz)
[01:24:22] <jmkasunich> oops
[01:24:25] <jmkasunich> ~5KHz
[01:24:48] <jmkasunich> you should be able to trigger cleanly on a single pulse at 5KHz
[01:25:14] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: the RTAI build system is the problem, that's what gives that sh*tty name of smi_rt
[01:25:28] <jmkasunich> then leave the trigger on that channel, and put the other channel of the scope on the channel you want to mess with
[01:25:33] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: figures
[01:26:05] <jepler> that's why during the 2.2 cycle somebody needs to make emc go directly on adeos, not on rtapi
[01:26:19] <alex_joni> jepler: Xenomai all the way :D
[01:26:27] <jmkasunich> jepler: them as you increase the command, you should still have a stable 5KHz picture with more and more 100nS pulses appearing
[01:26:33] <alex_joni> guess I'm really waiting for LXRT to work properly
[01:26:41] <jmkasunich> jepler: I'm all for HAL as a self contained thing over adeos
[01:26:50] <alex_joni> or whatever that user space RT stuff was called
[01:26:51] <jmkasunich> then EMC is just another HAL application
[01:27:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni looks away in distress
[01:27:18] <jmkasunich> eliminate the parts of rtapi that we don't use, and tie rtapi/hal together
[01:27:30] <jmkasunich> but right now, LEDs and scopes are more interesting
[01:27:45] <alex_joni> you mean not use a RT subsystem at all? go directly over ADEOS?
[01:28:03] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure, jepler said it ;-)
[01:28:19] <jmkasunich> that may be a lot more complex than it seems at first glance
[01:28:29] <alex_joni> jepler: sounds like a walk in the park, all you need to write is memory management, semaphore handling, scheduling
[01:28:39] <alex_joni> and a couple of other things I never heard about :D
[01:28:50] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: not all of that
[01:28:59] <jmkasunich> we're not looking for a generic RTOS here
[01:29:06] <jmkasunich> we need shared memory, yes
[01:29:10] <alex_joni> no, but those things above we need
[01:29:19] <jmkasunich> no semaphores I don't think
[01:29:27] <alex_joni> mutexes then?
[01:29:30] <jepler> "it can't be that hard
[01:29:30] <jepler> "
[01:29:42] <jepler> I'm cocky after managing "sim" so easily
[01:29:47] <alex_joni> jepler: "others did this before, so it can't be that hard"
[01:29:47] <jmkasunich> and scheduling - ideally you have a single interrupt source that triggers your fastest thread
[01:29:57] <SWPadnos> how much spiked eggnog was that?
[01:30:02] <jmkasunich> duh, I guess you need a scheduler to deal with slower threads
[01:30:09] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I agree we need a simple scheduler
[01:30:20] <alex_joni> but that's not a trivial thing as it would appear
[01:30:26] <jmkasunich> I know
[01:30:33] <alex_joni> I worked on a RTOS once
[01:30:36] <jmkasunich> but right now, LEDs and scopes are more interesting
[01:30:39] <alex_joni> _very_ simplified
[01:30:46] <alex_joni> for a simple DSP platform
[01:30:53] <alex_joni> and it was all but trivial
[01:30:54] <alex_joni> :D
[01:30:55] <jmkasunich> (so did I, but not for a modern pentium class CPU)
[01:31:04] <jmkasunich> I did one for 8051
[01:31:18] <jmkasunich> and for vintage x86
[01:31:20] <alex_joni> this one was truly hard RT
[01:31:39] <alex_joni> when you added a new task, it would analyze it and say if it can do it with the needed constraints or not
[01:31:40] <jmkasunich> ditto
[01:31:45] <jmkasunich> oh, fancy
[01:31:58] <alex_joni> all wcet based
[01:32:00] <jmkasunich> I didn't do any analysis
[01:32:17] <alex_joni> so it either worked as it should, or not at all (from the beginning)
[01:32:19] <jmkasunich> still: right now, LEDs and scopes are more interesting
[01:32:27] <alex_joni> yeah, bed sounds good to me :D
[01:32:29] <jmkasunich> jepler: what's happening with the scope?
[01:32:32] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[01:32:38] <jmkasunich> merry christmas
[01:32:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: so I guess the rtai package is ok?
[01:32:45] <jepler> jmkasunich: I'm having trouble making it do what I want
[01:32:46] <alex_joni> thanks, merry christmas to you too
[01:32:52] <jmkasunich> you mean the one you had me install on jmk-st?
[01:32:55] <jmkasunich> seems that way
[01:33:11] <jmkasunich> jepler: what kind of scope do you have?
[01:33:13] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: ok, then we might want it in the repo
[01:34:00] <jepler> I set it to 256/2047, or about .1250
[01:34:28] <jepler> the "high"s are around 100nS and the interval between rising edges is about 800nS. 1/8 = .125
[01:35:22] <jepler> IOW it's right
[01:35:50] <jmkasunich> good
[01:36:07] <jmkasunich> but still dimmer than PWM at 256/2047?
[01:36:18] <jepler> yes
[01:36:40] <jmkasunich> how much wire between the chip pin, and your led? and between the ground pin of the LED, and ground on the board?
[01:37:05] <jepler> it's all surface mount parts on the pluto board -- an inch tops
[01:37:14] <jmkasunich> including the led?
[01:37:21] <jmkasunich> (I thought maybe you had tacked that on)
[01:37:35] <jepler> the original board had the led
[01:37:39] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:37:55] <jmkasunich> one perfectly good theory ruined by a dose of facts :-(
[01:38:43] <jmkasunich> (I was speculating that the lead inductance was preventing the 100nS pulses from reaching full LED current)
[01:39:07] <SWPadnos> could be junction capacitance instead
[01:39:08] <jmkasunich> but that would take at least a sizable chunk of a microhenry, you probably have a few 10s of nanohenries
[01:39:11] <SWPadnos> what color LED?
[01:39:13] <jepler> red
[01:39:15] <jmkasunich> could be
[01:39:17] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[01:39:34] <jepler> it's FPGA -> LED -> resistor -> GND
[01:39:35] <SWPadnos> green or blue I could imagine, but red should be OK
[01:39:39] <jmkasunich> what is the series resistor?
[01:39:51] <jepler> if I measure at the low side of the LED there's a negative-going spike at each turn-off
[01:40:03] <jmkasunich> thats the junction C
[01:40:11] <jmkasunich> (or your scope probe ringing ;-)
[01:40:25] <jepler> no there's not that bad a ring at the other side of the LED
[01:40:32] <jepler> it's a small resistor, I'm having trouble reading the marking
[01:41:03] <jmkasunich> can you post a digi pic of the scope screen, showing the low side of the LED?
[01:41:26] <jepler> the marking seems to be 018
[01:41:44] <SWPadnos> or 810?
[01:41:47] <jmkasunich> if the RC time constant of the LED C and the resistor R is a significant fraction of 100nS, that could have an effect
[01:41:59] <jepler> maybe but I thought I could see the hook on the "1"
[01:42:10] <SWPadnos> roughly how long does the negative spike last?
[01:42:25] <SWPadnos> err - how wide is it? ;)
[01:44:28] <jepler> 3*.02uS before it is 90% gone
[01:44:41] <SWPadnos> so ~60 ns?
[01:44:44] <jepler> yep
[01:44:53] <SWPadnos> that's a significant fraction of 100ns
[01:45:14] <jepler> the on-time
[01:45:21] <SWPadnos> right
[01:45:25] <jepler> but this happens at the start of the off-time which is 700ns or so
[01:45:51] <SWPadnos> sure, but internally the diode junction needs to charge up before the LED will light
[01:46:02] <jepler> oh oh
[01:46:06] <SWPadnos> it shouldn't take the same amount of time (I think), but still ...
[01:46:25] <jepler> OK you're not saying that the -ve spike is the reason it's darker, but it's a way to gauge charging the C the other direction when it turns on
[01:46:33] <SWPadnos> right
[01:47:16] <SWPadnos> but at anything <50%, I think you'll get only single on-times, and multiple off-times
[01:48:32] <jepler> yes
[01:49:14] <SWPadnos> so the LED should probably be ~30% dimmer for anything below 50%, and should get progressively closer to the PWM brightness as you approach 100%
[01:49:29] <SWPadnos> (the 30% is a guesstimate)
[01:49:35] <jepler> sounds similar to what I'm seeing
[01:49:43] <jepler> at 50% there's still a difference, and it get smaller as i go higher
[01:49:58] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:50:53] <SWPadnos> I think LEDs are a little weird anyway, at least in terms of perceived brightness
[01:51:34] <jmkasunich> eyes too
[01:51:59] <SWPadnos> when doing PWM on high brightness LEDs, I found that 1/256 on time was a significant jump from off, but I could hardly tell the difference as I added 1/256-ths to the duty cycle
[01:52:01] <SWPadnos> yep
[01:53:03] <jmkasunich> I think eyes are log devices
[01:53:16] <jmkasunich> the difference from 0 to 1 is a lot more than from 1 to 2 (on a log scale)
[01:53:25] <SWPadnos> sure
[01:53:36] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich curses AT&T
[01:53:58] <jmkasunich> I suppose I would be better off calling some other time than 8pm on christmas eve
[01:54:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:54:16] <SWPadnos> that might improve your chances of speaking to a human
[01:54:25] <SWPadnos> in your time zone +- 3
[01:54:35] <jmkasunich> I spoke to a couple humans, in india
[01:54:41] <SWPadnos> in your time zone +- 3
[01:54:43] <SWPadnos> :)
[01:54:48] <jmkasunich> none of which could actually do anything anway
[01:55:40] <jmkasunich> anyway... I gotta find something productive to do this evening
[01:56:27] <SWPadnos> hmmm - productive. I guess opening new DVDs wouldn't count, huh?
[01:56:43] <jmkasunich> tore into the christmas presents early eh?
[01:57:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:58:25] <jmkasunich> I know - I can look for connectors
[01:58:42] <jmkasunich> I want to be able to disconnect things without unscrewing or unsoldering individual wires
[01:58:52] <jmkasunich> for instance to remove the millhead or table from the machine
[01:58:59] <jmkasunich> or to remove the electrical box from the bench
[01:59:10] <SWPadnos> hmmm - what kinds of connections?
[01:59:18] <SWPadnos> servo/stepper drivers, VFD, ...
[01:59:24] <jmkasunich> steppers, limit switches, jogwheels, etc
[01:59:29] <jmkasunich> IOW, both power and signal
[01:59:33] <SWPadnos> ah
[01:59:44] <SWPadnos> do you have a bin(s) of circular connectors?
[02:00:01] <jmkasunich> yes, but probably not big enough
[02:00:08] <jmkasunich> I probalby have lots of unmatched paris
[02:00:11] <jmkasunich> pairs
[02:00:22] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:00:40] <SWPadnos> I wonder if HD power connectors would work
[02:00:52] <SWPadnos> I suppose only if they're protected from swarf/chips
[02:01:34] <jmkasunich> I want something more rugged than that
[02:01:52] <SWPadnos> trailer connectors
[02:01:57] <jmkasunich> for signals D-shells would work
[02:02:19] <jmkasunich> trailer connectors are usually inline, not bulkhead
[02:02:19] <SWPadnos> do you plan on panel-mounting one end?
[02:02:22] <SWPadnos> ok
[02:02:52] <jmkasunich> for steppers I could probably parallel pins on d-shells (kluge, but would work)
[02:03:01] <jmkasunich> for the spindle, I need 240V
[02:03:23] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich digs thru the box of circular connectors
[02:03:45] <SWPadnos> maybe the spindle would be betrer served with an arrangement of contactors
[02:03:47] <SWPadnos> better
[02:04:01] <jmkasunich> ?
[02:04:19] <SWPadnos> you have two motors, right (lathe and spindle)?
[02:04:22] <jmkasunich> contactors switch power, they don't get it in/out of a box
[02:04:31] <SWPadnos> sure
[02:04:51] <SWPadnos> I'd hard wire the input, and possibly the outputs to the two motors
[02:05:19] <SWPadnos> use a reversing contactor, and parallel the VFD output to both inputs, then run one the FWD contacts to one motor and the REV contacts to the other
[02:05:31] <jmkasunich> I don't want to hardwire anything unless I absolutely have to
[02:05:39] <jmkasunich> O
[02:06:00] <jmkasunich> I'm definitely gonna have one VFD feeding two contactors, with one motor wired to each contactor
[02:06:14] <jmkasunich> but I still want to be able to inplug the motors from the box
[02:06:35] <jmkasunich> unplug even
[02:07:14] <jmkasunich> I found two matched pairs of 17 pin MS connectors
[02:07:16] <SWPadnos> you probably know that VFDs really don't like being run with no motor attached ... (hence the reversing contactor scheme, which keeps one motor connected all the time)
[02:07:30] <jmkasunich> no it doesn't
[02:07:45] <SWPadnos> except during a switch ...
[02:07:49] <jmkasunich> reversing contactors have three states, fwd, rev, and off
[02:08:00] <SWPadnos> ok, sure
[02:08:08] <jmkasunich> thats not an issue - I know how to do interlocking
[02:08:12] <SWPadnos> I was thinking of the mechanically liknked pairs
[02:08:22] <SWPadnos> of course :)
[02:08:43] <jmkasunich> even so, the interlock simply prevents fwd and rev being ON at the same time, they can both be off
[02:08:54] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: in regards to shipping and insurance - sounds good to me.
[02:09:22] <SWPadnos> ok. I'd say that's close enough to a quorum to make it decided ;)
[02:10:07] <jmkasunich> hmm - the spindle motor has the same 17 pin ms connector for the encoder signals
[02:10:18] <jmkasunich> except the motor has a chassis mounted male
[02:10:29] <jmkasunich> I have chassis mount female and cable mount male
[02:10:32] <SWPadnos> an MS connector on a ShopTask - weird
[02:10:36] <jmkasunich> no
[02:10:54] <SWPadnos> you may be able to swap the innards around
[02:11:01] <jmkasunich> an MS connector on the big-ass AC servomotor that I intend to replace the POS chinese single phase motor with
[02:11:08] <SWPadnos> hmmm - nevermind. not with the chassis mount units
[02:11:12] <SWPadnos> ah ;)
[02:11:29] <jmkasunich> the power connection for the servomotor is also a big MS
[02:11:55] <jmkasunich> with 7 heavy pins - three are the windings, two are a winding thermostat, and two I forget
[02:12:01] <jmkasunich> (got it written down somewhere)
[02:14:00] <jmkasunich> back soon - dog is whining
[02:14:16] <SWPadnos> heh - see you
[02:20:41] <jmkasunich> found some more goodies
[02:20:54] <jmkasunich> two 9 pin cable/connector matched sets
[02:20:59] <jmkasunich> and two 6 pin
[02:21:18] <jmkasunich> the 6 pinners seem like signal or moderate power, the 9's seem pretty hefty
[02:22:09] <jmkasunich> I actually have 5 of the 9 pin cables, but only 2 of the chassis mount mating connectors
[02:27:47] <jmkasunich> wish I had more of those
[02:28:13] <jmkasunich> 8 conductors (one colored green) plus a separate ground/shield conductor
[02:28:17] <jmkasunich> all 16 gage
[02:28:33] <jmkasunich> sounds like two steppers to me
[02:29:07] <jmkasunich> got to break them out somewhere though, so each motor can be removed individually
[02:31:39] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: does your bport have motors, or are you gonna be adding them?
[02:37:54] <SWPadnos> I have servos for it, but I need to figure out the mounting on my own
[02:38:10] <jmkasunich> so it wasn't built as a CNC
[02:38:12] <SWPadnos> except for Z - I snagged an Anilam quill drive mount off eBay
[02:38:15] <SWPadnos> nope
[02:38:20] <SWPadnos> it had apower-feed, and that's it
[02:38:48] <jmkasunich> what do your motors have for connections? just wires? or a little junction box? or plugs of some sort?
[02:38:56] <SWPadnos> MS connectors
[02:39:00] <SWPadnos> they're Baldor servos
[02:39:14] <jmkasunich> do you have the mating halves?
[02:39:16] <SWPadnos> 24-7, I think
[02:39:18] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:39:25] <SWPadnos> I got some of them at Fest
[02:39:50] <jmkasunich> cool
[02:40:16] <SWPadnos> there was a guy who had loads of MS connectors - was selling them for $1-2 each, or thereabouts
[02:40:38] <jmkasunich> I remember that
[02:40:39] <SWPadnos> yep - 16-pin, configuration 24-7
[02:40:48] <jmkasunich> he actually had the right ones - lucky!
[02:40:57] <SWPadnos> heh - with backshells even
[02:41:22] <SWPadnos> if you need that type, I have others that aren't the particular type I want to use
[02:41:54] <jmkasunich> no, my motors have 7 and 19 pins
[02:42:02] <SWPadnos> ah - ok
[02:42:36] <jmkasunich> the lathe spindle motor is gonna be interesting
[02:43:02] <SWPadnos> why is that?
[02:43:15] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/shoptask/lathe-motor-new-back.jpg
[02:43:27] <jmkasunich> if I point the connetors up, they hit the table
[02:43:45] <jmkasunich> if I point them toward the machine, that _might_ work, but would be ugly - a heavy chip area
[02:43:49] <jmkasunich> down means holes in the bench
[02:44:01] <jmkasunich> and out (as in the pic) means right at the back of the electrical box
[02:44:20] <jmkasunich> its tempting to point them back and figure out how to get them directly into the box without a cable
[02:44:26] <SWPadnos> are right-angle backshells too tall to go under the table?
[02:44:37] <jmkasunich> probably
[02:44:50] <jmkasunich> I have about 1" from top of motor fins to bottom of table
[02:45:00] <jmkasunich> lemme turn the motor connectors up and see what that leaves
[02:45:06] <SWPadnos> oh - that probably is too little
[02:45:22] <SWPadnos> the connectors look like they go to ~1/4" below the fins
[02:45:44] <jmkasunich> 3/4" from connector to table
[02:46:15] <SWPadnos> facing the machine, but with a shield over them, is probably the best solution
[02:46:43] <SWPadnos> but maybe not, from a chip/oil/fluid perspective
[02:47:38] <jmkasunich> I have this vision of a box/frame that goes around both connectors, and is gasketed to the box at one end and the motor on the other
[02:47:47] <jmkasunich> then just access the connectors from inside the box
[02:48:09] <SWPadnos> it'll have to be a big box - those connectors don't just slide on and off
[02:48:30] <SWPadnos> it's a real pain to get the alignment correct, and then to screw the thing on for the inch or so of fine thread
[02:48:52] <jmkasunich> true but
[02:49:05] <jmkasunich> if inside the box, I don't really need backshells
[02:49:14] <jmkasunich> and maybe not even housing/threads
[02:49:21] <jmkasunich> (just brainstorming right now)
[02:49:54] <SWPadnos> I don't think I'd use those connectors without some threads, especially in a vibration-prone location
[02:50:11] <jmkasunich> you're probably right
[02:50:27] <A-L-P-H-A> heh... txt msgd everyone on my phone a Merry Christmas... getting replies!
[02:50:48] <jmkasunich> another possibility - the back cover plate of the motor - I could move the connectors there
[02:52:14] <jmkasunich> yet another - use the box/frame idea (a tunnel of sorts) from the main electrical box, to the space between that red stripe and the end of the motor
[02:52:25] <jmkasunich> which is a combination wiring space and encoder housing
[02:52:40] <jmkasunich> then just run wires thru the tunnel and into the main box
[02:53:36] <SWPadnos> the control cabinet will stick out from the end of the cabinet, no?
[02:53:46] <SWPadnos> ie, it's not going to be under the bench
[02:53:56] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/shoptask/lathe-motor-new-back.jpg
[02:53:58] <SWPadnos> (sorry - meant bench when I wrote cabinet)
[02:54:33] <jmkasunich> that pic is just temporarily places, but its mounted now, in just about the same spot
[02:54:44] <jmkasunich> the top mounting ears are gone of course - they would hit the table
[02:54:57] <SWPadnos> that was the motor pic you just pasted
[02:55:15] <jmkasunich> oops
[02:55:17] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/shoptask/big-box-open-side.jpg
[02:55:43] <SWPadnos> but in the motor pic, the control box would be in front of the motor and bench, right?
[02:56:10] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:56:30] <jmkasunich> the motor pic is taken from the back of the bench, so "front" is ambiguous
[02:56:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:57:08] <SWPadnos> like loading a truck "put it in front of the sofa"
[02:57:15] <jmkasunich> top of box is a bit (1/4" maybe) higher than top of motor
[02:57:39] <jmkasunich> exact front/back location of motor is undefined
[02:58:01] <jmkasunich> one approach would leave space between motor and box for cooling, but crap would get in there
[02:58:09] <SWPadnos> ok. I didn't realize the cabinet was going to be above the bench top
[02:58:20] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:58:31] <jmkasunich> thats why my talk of a tunnel didn't make sense
[02:58:36] <SWPadnos> right
[02:58:57] <SWPadnos> yeah - a 4x4 box on the back of the cabinet would be fine, with appropriate sealing
[02:59:29] <jmkasunich> as you pointed out it might be hard to mate the connectors
[02:59:33] <jmkasunich> but not out of the question
[02:59:51] <SWPadnos> do a 6x6, though you'd need a pretty big cutout from the enclosure (and backplane)
[03:00:14] <jmkasunich> I've been thinking about the backplane
[03:00:25] <jmkasunich> since I don't already have one, I have no investment there
[03:00:36] <jmkasunich> I', thinking of maybe using several smaller ones
[03:00:41] <SWPadnos> it's a space issue more than anything
[03:01:00] <jmkasunich> one for the PC, for example, and one for the geckos plus power supply
[03:01:00] <SWPadnos> are there many studs in the box?
[03:01:06] <jmkasunich> only 4
[03:01:19] <SWPadnos> ok, so mounting of backplane(s) is an issue
[03:01:38] <SWPadnos> doing sub-modules makes a lot of sense though
[03:01:52] <jmkasunich> I was thinking of perhaps 1/2" square aluminum bar, an inch or two long, whereever I need panel support
[03:01:59] <SWPadnos> ideally, with only connectors or barrier strips/DIN blocks in between modules
[03:02:12] <jmkasunich> screwed in from the back, with a stud in the front for the panel
[03:02:17] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[03:02:26] <jmkasunich> heck, maybe just run screws in from the back, then double nut them to make studs
[03:02:27] <jmkasunich> phone
[03:03:39] <jmkasunich> back
[03:04:24] <jmkasunich> I have some freedom in back, because there is a 3/4" x 3" wide strip at the level of the benchtop
[03:04:37] <jmkasunich> the rest of the box back has 3/4" of air behind it, so screw heads won't hurt
[03:05:04] <jmkasunich> some gasket goop or RTV or something when I screw the blocks in to keep it sealed....
[03:06:31] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:06:56] <SWPadnos> through bolts as studs would require pretty wide aluminum bar ...
[03:07:22] <jmkasunich> ?
[03:07:31] <jmkasunich> 1/2" bar would be fine for 1/4" bolts
[03:07:47] <SWPadnos> oh right - you did say 1/2: bar, didn't you? ;)
[03:07:51] <SWPadnos> 1/2"
[03:07:58] <jmkasunich> I think the existing studs are 3/8, but if I'm using smaller panels thats overkill
[03:08:40] <jmkasunich> actually, if I'm going all the way thru with a bolt to make a stud, I'd just use doubled nuts to space off the panel
[03:09:53] <SWPadnos> maybe not so good in a vibration-prone environment ...
[03:10:27] <jmkasunich> details ;-)
[03:10:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:10:37] <jmkasunich> locktite?
[03:10:44] <SWPadnos> that could work
[03:11:08] <jmkasunich> or I could go back to the original idea, with the screws from the back into a bar, and then either screws thru the panel into the bar, or studs in the bar
[03:11:22] <jmkasunich> (panel fasteners offset from bar-to-box fasteners)
[03:12:00] <jmkasunich> for input power: http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/small/7162kp4s.gif
[03:12:49] <SWPadnos> nice - twist-lock?
[03:12:53] <jmkasunich> unfortunately $40 for a matched pair,panel mount male and cord mount female
[03:12:54] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:13:14] <SWPadnos> that's about the going price for cord-mount anyway (depending on the NEMA rating)
[03:13:22] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:13:40] <jmkasunich> this would be three pole 4 wire (120/240VAC, with neutral and ground)
[03:14:11] <SWPadnos> L16-20 or something
[03:14:19] <jmkasunich> L14-20
[03:14:27] <jmkasunich> 16-20 is good for 480V
[03:14:34] <SWPadnos> ah - going for the exact voltage rating?
[03:14:56] <SWPadnos> yeah - since I'm running off a phase converter, I figured I'd get a rating or two over
[03:14:59] <jmkasunich> if I see a 16-20 in the dumpster, I'll use it
[03:15:34] <jmkasunich> if you are buying, you should buy the right thing
[03:15:56] <jmkasunich> those things are a form of keying to keep you from plugging a 240V load into a 480V receptacle
[03:16:08] <jmkasunich> sure, you don't have any 480V receptacles NOW, but you never know
[03:16:17] <SWPadnos> I got ones that are the same, they may have been L15
[03:16:41] <SWPadnos> the keying was different across the current ratings, but the same across voltages
[03:17:20] <jmkasunich> http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/d1bnema1l.gif
[03:17:26] <jmkasunich> master decoder ring
[03:17:48] <jmkasunich> they're not all the same for different currents
[03:17:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:18:40] <SWPadnos> hmmm - maybe they just looked the same - but the pin opposite the keyed pin is a different width across the voltages
[03:19:07] <jmkasunich> we had some neat ones in our old lab
[03:19:14] <jmkasunich> 600V 60A four wire
[03:19:18] <jmkasunich> rugged things
[03:19:26] <SWPadnos> I can imagine
[03:19:37] <jmkasunich> hate to think what they cost, and we abandoned them when we moved
[03:19:53] <jmkasunich> must have been 50 of them in the lab
[03:20:02] <SWPadnos> bummer
[03:20:18] <jmkasunich> way too big for this tho - about 4" diameter
[03:20:28] <SWPadnos> probably $2k in connectors (double if it was 50 pair)
[03:20:39] <jmkasunich> it was 50 pair
[03:20:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm - actually, probably closer to $3-4k, or $7-8k for pairs
[03:20:52] <jmkasunich> I bet it was easily $100 per mated pair
[03:20:53] <SWPadnos> ouch
[03:21:15] <jmkasunich> the receptacles were mounted in the ceiling, and wired back to the distributuon panels
[03:21:26] <jmkasunich> (we had 480 and 240V receptacles)
[03:21:28] <SWPadnos> werll, I did get L16-20 - the L15 are 250VAC only, and I wanted some margin over that
[03:21:31] <jmkasunich> then there were drop cables to each bench
[03:22:03] <jmkasunich> your machine is 240v though?
[03:22:15] <SWPadnos> yep, but the phase converter isn't perfect
[03:22:24] <jmkasunich> those things have plenty of margin
[03:22:27] <SWPadnos> I have outlets on the phase converter
[03:23:04] <jmkasunich> most industrial (and even residential) wiring devices are insulated to handle spikes to several Kv without arcing over
[03:23:05] <SWPadnos> I think I was measuring 256 or so, not during surge events
[03:23:17] <SWPadnos> yeah, they're certainly big enough ;)
[03:23:50] <jmkasunich> voltage stress is a non-issue, I bet even the 120V ones are safe at 600V
[03:24:02] <jmkasunich> the reason they have all those ratings is for keying purposes only
[03:24:17] <SWPadnos> yeah, I'd be surprised if I could convince one to go through dielectric breakdown
[03:24:23] <jmkasunich> which you''ve neatly defeated ;-)
[03:24:25] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:24:39] <SWPadnos> since I'm rewiring all the machines I get, it's a moot point ;)
[03:24:54] <jmkasunich> just don't sell any
[03:25:20] <SWPadnos> (added electronic motor controls and a washdown motor to the bandsaw, haven't had the time to do the same to the bench grinder ...)
[03:25:39] <SWPadnos> true - I can always put the old plugs back on (you don't think I threw them away, do you?) ;)
[03:25:51] <jmkasunich> didn't know you had old ones
[03:26:17] <SWPadnos> sometimes old and icky - I've ended up replacing the cords as well on all the machines
[03:26:36] <jmkasunich> yeah, I don't like cords in general
[03:26:52] <jmkasunich> for 120V stuff the IEC plug is a great invention
[03:26:53] <SWPadnos> SOOW is so much nicer than the old paper-wrapped oily stuff
[03:26:58] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:27:33] <jmkasunich> when I scrap out stuff I tend to save the IEC power inlet modules
[03:28:03] <jmkasunich> then when I have something with a cord (like a bench supply, or whatever) if I can replace the cord with an IEC thingie I do
[03:28:14] <jmkasunich> and for any project, I use the IEC thing
[03:28:30] <SWPadnos> sure makes it easy to replace the cords
[03:28:33] <jmkasunich> some are really nice - built in RFI filters and such
[03:28:43] <SWPadnos> but less useful for 240V/3ph stuff ...
[03:28:46] <jmkasunich> make it easy to store on the shelf too - I remove the cord
[03:28:47] <jmkasunich> true
[03:29:26] <SWPadnos> that's where I like the twist-lock plugs and good NEMA-12 cable entries
[03:29:40] <SWPadnos> and/or liquid-tight conduit
[03:29:47] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:29:59] <jmkasunich> ligui-tite doesn't work for cords tho
[03:30:05] <jmkasunich> (where one end is a plug)
[03:30:07] <SWPadnos> I like being able to point the garden hose at the bandsaw now ;)
[03:30:13] <jmkasunich> great for starter box to motor, etc
[03:30:15] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:30:52] <jmkasunich> I can't point a hose at the shoptask ( because of the wooden bench if nothing else), but that level of sealedness is my goal
[03:31:04] <jmkasunich> because of cutting oil and chips
[03:31:07] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:31:55] <jmkasunich> so... lathe spindle motor may go direct into the box
[03:32:15] <SWPadnos> yep. that or move the connectors to the back of the motor
[03:32:16] <jmkasunich> mill spindle motor will need cords that plug at the motor end, may be permanetly connected at the box end
[03:32:51] <jmkasunich> steppers, I might use the 9 conductor plugs, run those cables to a junction box on the machine somewhere, then connect the individual motors there
[03:33:16] <jmkasunich> 16AWG should be good enough for 6.1A steppers
[03:33:30] <SWPadnos> why the junction box? do the steppers not have connectors on them?
[03:33:37] <jmkasunich> I don't think so
[03:34:19] <SWPadnos> hmmm. then I'd probably use separate small junction boxes for each motor
[03:34:25] <jmkasunich> http://www.kelinginc.net/SMotorstock.html
[03:34:32] <jmkasunich> item 3, first one
[03:34:36] <jmkasunich> is the motors I'm planning to get
[03:36:05] <SWPadnos> are those the ones that need a special tweak to Geckos to get them to run well
[03:36:15] <SWPadnos> or was that some servo of theirs?
[03:36:55] <jmkasunich> the only gecko tweaks I'm aware of are for nema 42 motors
[03:37:14] <SWPadnos> there was a special version made for some keling motor, I don't remember which one
[03:37:31] <jmkasunich> hmm, thats news to me
[03:37:34] <SWPadnos> not just for branding, but because the standard one didn't work well
[03:37:59] <SWPadnos> ok - it was a servo, not a stepper
[03:38:10] <jmkasunich> phew
[03:38:31] <SWPadnos> from Mariss: "This turns out to be an unexpectedly good servomotor when a G320 is modified to counteract the effects of this motor's pronounced cogging. See the report's scope pictures for details."
[03:38:33] <jmkasunich> was starting to get worried - I already have my gecko drives
[03:39:30] <jmkasunich> I wonder what kind of nice 4 conductor connecters are available for steppers
[03:39:34] <SWPadnos> (the kl34-150-90 motor, in case you're wondering)
[03:40:52] <jmkasunich> nema 34 frame - interesting
[03:41:09] <jmkasunich> the shoptask is built to accept nema 34 frame steppers
[03:41:13] <SWPadnos> yeah, and pretty cheap for a servo
[03:41:24] <jmkasunich> no encoder included
[03:41:32] <SWPadnos> $30 from USDigital
[03:41:58] <SWPadnos> no driver purchased would be the bigger problem
[03:42:30] <jmkasunich> skunkworks style H bridge ;-)
[03:42:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:42:43] <jmkasunich> 5i20 PWM
[03:42:46] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:42:52] <jtr> SWPadnos: I saw skunkworks mention shipping and insurance - have you sent out an email?
[03:42:56] <SWPadnos> they are relatively low voltage
[03:43:16] <SWPadnos> not yet - was asking for opinions on inbound insurance, rounding - that sort of thing
[03:43:45] <SWPadnos> I should get that out before I go to bed tonight
[03:43:48] <jtr> round up - don't sweat the small stuff.
[03:44:22] <SWPadnos> yep - rounding up to the nearest dollar. I've gotten rates for outbound shipping (also with insurance)
[03:45:29] <jtr> works for me. A big thanks for the trouble! Hmm - as usual, getting called away.
[03:45:50] <SWPadnos> no problem. have fun :)
[03:54:38] <jmkasunich> interseting family of connectors: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T071/0318.pdf
[03:55:03] <jmkasunich> 6 conductors plus ground, 10A each 250V
[03:55:24] <jmkasunich> mated pair about $15-16
[03:55:28] <SWPadnos> nice. plastic.
[03:55:44] <jmkasunich> yeah, well, can't have everything
[03:55:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:55:56] <jmkasunich> keep them away from the really hot chips
[03:57:00] <SWPadnos> they are nice
[03:58:15] <jmkasunich> maybe put pigtails on the motors, long enough to go all the way to the box, with these connectors at the box end
[03:58:56] <SWPadnos> yeah, or mount a small box with a panel-mount connector on /at each motor
[03:59:09] <jmkasunich> that would be nice
[03:59:13] <jmkasunich> probably tricky though
[03:59:32] <jmkasunich> won't have the motors until after the first of the year, then I can look into it
[04:01:19] <jmkasunich> man MS connectors are pricy
[04:04:08] <SWPadnos> yes, I know
[04:04:30] <SWPadnos> in some cases, one item number comes with both male and female ends though
[04:04:39] <SWPadnos> I don't remember which cases
[04:06:32] <SWPadnos> I just sent you an email. let me know if there's anything missing (I intend to send a similar one to every buyer)
[04:07:36] <jmkasunich> looks pretty complete
[04:07:42] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:07:53] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich debates whether to add another LED board
[04:08:01] <jmkasunich> nah
[04:08:22] <SWPadnos> I think they have pass-through connectors, so they can even be useful in a machine
[04:08:33] <jmkasunich> a couple things about the email:
[04:08:38] <SWPadnos> and test points, though I'm not positive about that
[04:08:42] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:09:01] <jmkasunich> you address (for people sending a check) and your paypal address (for people doing paypal)(
[04:09:09] <SWPadnos> oh, duh ;)
[04:09:27] <jmkasunich> ;-()
[04:10:03] <jmkasunich> so you haven't actually placed the order with mesa yet?
[04:10:25] <jmkasunich> I might think about the LED board a little longer
[04:10:32] <SWPadnos> no. they weren't going to ship until the 27th anyway
[04:10:53] <SWPadnos> I may want to make sure it happens on the 28th, so it's past my credit card billing cycle
[04:11:00] <jmkasunich> good plan
[04:11:01] <SWPadnos> may as well pay in Feb instead of Jan, if I can
[04:11:44] <jmkasunich> I don't see test points on the LED board
[04:12:16] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[04:12:46] <jmkasunich> I think I'll just stick with one
[04:13:03] <jmkasunich> most of the stuff that I'm gonna be messing with will be stuff that doesn't LED well
[04:13:16] <jmkasunich> pwm, serial a/d converters, step/dir, encoders, etc
[04:13:25] <SWPadnos> indeed
[04:13:44] <SWPadnos> I figured it would be good to have a complete set for experimentation - 3 boards for one card
[04:14:03] <SWPadnos> I guess it's a little easier to grab an IC pin than a connector wire ...
[04:14:07] <jmkasunich> its only $25....
[04:14:29] <jmkasunich> vacillate
[04:14:34] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:15:48] <SWPadnos> ok - how's that?
[04:16:29] <jmkasunich> looks good
[04:16:51] <jmkasunich> go ahead and add one more 7i31 to mine (total 2) when you send out the official email
[04:17:02] <SWPadnos> heh - ok.
[04:17:10] <SWPadnos> (I thought that was the official mail :) )
[04:17:21] <jmkasunich> no, that was the proofreading mail
[04:17:25] <SWPadnos> oh, right.
[04:31:52] <jmkasunich> got the official one
[04:31:58] <jmkasunich> I'll mail a check tomorrow
[04:32:02] <jmkasunich> thanks for all the work
[04:32:09] <SWPadnos> ok. Tuesday would be fine ;)
[04:32:27] <SWPadnos> no problem. I'm glad it seems to be working out
[04:32:43] <jmkasunich> tuesday we'll be out of town
[04:33:07] <jmkasunich> I'll drop it in the mailbox tomorrow, but the mailman won't pick it up till tues - how's that?
[04:33:24] <SWPadnos> that's OK by me
[04:38:55] <jmkasunich> hey, I may have found good (cheap) stepper connectors
[04:39:04] <SWPadnos> really?
[04:39:15] <jmkasunich> http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T071/0319.pdf
[04:39:20] <jmkasunich> bottom of the page
[04:39:36] <jmkasunich> 4 pin housings, cable or chassis mount, about $4
[04:39:44] <jmkasunich> contacts $0.18 each
[04:40:57] <jmkasunich> doesn't spell out the current rating, but they have contacts that accept 14ga wire
[04:41:09] <SWPadnos> yeah - I was looking for that
[04:41:53] <jmkasunich> also wants a crimp tool :-(
[04:42:05] <SWPadnos> the crimp tool, as usual, makes up for the connector/contact cost
[04:42:41] <jmkasunich> yeah, but tools you get to keep ;-)
[04:42:50] <SWPadnos> so true ;)
[04:43:09] <jmkasunich> I might order one connector and some pins, and see if they would lend themselves to soldering instead of crimping
[04:43:23] <jmkasunich> or crimp with some cruder tool, then solder for reliability
[04:44:22] <SWPadnos> it looks like the bulkhead connectors have pins (they don't say "contacts sold separately")
[04:44:37] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:44:42] <jmkasunich> they call them headers
[04:44:48] <jmkasunich> intended to mount to boards?
[04:44:58] <jtr> how about pin/socket extractors? (drive-by question)
[04:45:19] <jmkasunich> what about them?
[04:45:20] <SWPadnos> the extractor is cheap - only $21.47
[04:45:33] <SWPadnos> the crimper is not cheap, only $343.44
[04:45:49] <jmkasunich> prototype crimp tool is $41
[04:45:54] <SWPadnos> (or $41.34 for the prototyping version)
[04:45:55] <SWPadnos> right
[04:46:44] <jtr> missed the extractor. wondered if they were available.
[04:46:53] <jmkasunich> they don't appear to have a backshell, I wonder if they're intended for discrete wire (bundles) only, instead of jacketed cable
[04:49:30] <jmkasunich> another possibility: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T071/0321.pdf
[04:49:35] <jmkasunich> bottom of the page again
[04:50:03] <jmkasunich> 4 pin mated pair $12
[04:50:14] <jtr> I think so - the usual automotive stuff. BTW - the bulkhead connectors are labeled headers - may be PC mount.
[04:50:38] <jmkasunich> jtr: yeah, I noticed that
[04:50:44] <jtr> gotta run. goodnight and Merry Christmas!
[04:50:51] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:51:02] <jmkasunich> have a safe and happy holiday
[04:52:10] <SWPadnos> see ya. enjoy
[05:01:16] <jmkasunich> ok, now its official
[05:01:21] <jmkasunich> Merry Christmas
[05:01:30] <SWPadnos> heh. thanks. same to you and yours
[05:08:48] <SWPadnos> ok. time for me to go beddy-bye. good night
[05:08:56] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[15:42:03] <jepler> I didn't completely follow the smi module discussion. are we going to advise users to insert the module at boot time through /etc/modules or the like?
[15:42:25] <jepler> or are we going to put stuff about it in rtapi.conf or .hal files?
[15:57:12] <alex_joni> I think the first version is better
[15:57:28] <alex_joni> it can be loaded at boot time (it doesn't require any other RT stuff to be loaded already)
[15:57:45] <alex_joni> and it needs some hackery to get it done properly by rtapi.conf
[19:48:41] <alex_joni> that's an odd thing reported by Mario
[19:50:14] <cradek> the 1.1x threshold may be a little too low
[19:51:56] <alex_joni> 1.1x treshold?
[19:52:21] <alex_joni> you mean BASE_PERIOD ?
[19:54:41] <cradek> no it's done in the servo thread
[19:55:10] <cradek> it keeps track of some history of the elapsed time between calls. if the elapsed this time is > 1.1x anything in the history it gives the error
[19:55:12] <alex_joni> I'm not sure I know what you're talking about
[19:55:25] <alex_joni> ahh.. ok, now I see it
[19:55:39] <alex_joni> you mean the RT error notifying ?
[19:55:41] <cradek> maybe it should be 1.2 or 1.5 or 2 or some other number
[19:55:42] <cradek> yes
[19:55:55] <alex_joni> ok, that might be one thing
[19:56:00] <cradek> I think that's what he's talking about, although it's hard to be entirely sure
[19:56:43] <alex_joni> I don't know what that 1ms might be about
[19:58:25] <cradek> I don't even understand what takes 1ms
[19:59:00] <alex_joni> same here
[19:59:08] <cradek> I wish he'd just give a bug report instead of trying to figure out the cause, because he's on several wrong tracks at once
[19:59:15] <jmkasunich> YEAH
[19:59:20] <jmkasunich> oops
[19:59:24] <jmkasunich> yeah ;-)
[19:59:25] <cradek> and the problem is probably his hardware
[19:59:25] <alex_joni> yeah :D
[19:59:30] <cradek> I think jmkasunich agrees :-)
[19:59:35] <alex_joni> YEAH
[19:59:41] <cradek> YEAH!
[19:59:42] <jmkasunich> quiet you
[20:00:00] <jmkasunich> not my fault - I was playing doom, must have hit the caps lock by accident
[20:00:26] <jmkasunich> doom is the perfect christmas game - peace on earth and good will to men, and all that...
[20:00:44] <alex_joni> lol
[20:00:53] <jmkasunich> anyway, mario
[20:01:12] <jmkasunich> several times I've said to myself, I wonder if he's found a real bug
[20:01:43] <jmkasunich> then the urge to try to replicate it goes away
[20:02:09] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that's the spirit
[20:05:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra_> "Whenever I feel ambitious I sit down in a chair and wait for it to pass" /some person I can't recall
[20:07:50] <alex_joni> bet it wasn't you
[20:08:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra_> oh, definetly not
[20:09:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra_> that seems to be the PHB's raison d'ĂȘtre
[20:10:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra_> Lerneaen_Hydra_ is now known as Lerneaen_Hydra
[21:05:23] <skunkworks> doom? cool. I played the original wolfenstien on the computer in collage. Then a year or 2 later I came across a game called doom - I thought - hey that is made by the same company that did wolfenstien (id) .. That is the only game I have ever played all the way through. iirc
[21:06:05] <jmkasunich> speaking of the company that made doom (John Carmak)
[21:06:12] <jmkasunich> do you know what he's doing these days?
[21:06:32] <skunkworks> No..
[21:06:39] <skunkworks> jail?
[21:07:13] <jmkasunich> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillo_Aerospace
[21:07:47] <jmkasunich> quite cool
[21:08:10] <skunkworks> ah I think I actually heard about that
[21:08:43] <skunkworks> there was a artical in popular science/mechanics
[21:08:58] <jmkasunich> they have a website (which seems to be having problems at the moment)
[21:09:04] <jmkasunich> they post updates monthly
[21:09:10] <jmkasunich> including test videos, etc
[21:09:32] <jmkasunich> he flies their rocket with a joystick attached to a laptop
[21:10:25] <skunkworks> I would think he would have the software prowess to do it.