#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-12-22

[00:32:01] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, It appears we were visited by the ghost of a not entirely uknown bug. Affected users: approximately all of you. All I want for christmas is a new ircd. Sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for using freenode.
[00:40:23] <skunkworks> score 1 for kenneth
[00:40:37] <alex_joni> hmm.. not sure that helps
[00:40:44] <alex_joni> even if we all feel that way
[00:41:19] <skunkworks> one of those - ignore it and it will go away
[00:41:41] <alex_joni> yeah
[00:41:44] <alex_joni> worked before
[08:58:33] <jmk-st> nptd isn't running it seems
[08:58:37] <jmk-st> gonna pull the cable
[08:58:44] <alex_joni> wrong channel :)
[08:58:48] <alex_joni> but it works in here too
[08:59:28] <alex_joni> hmm.. maybe you're getting ntp broadcast packages
[08:59:33] <alex_joni> even if ntp is not running
[08:59:46] <alex_joni> "A broadcast server sends out a packet about every 64 seconds."
[09:00:03] <jmkasunich> well, it still had a 300uS latency after I pulled the wire
[09:00:11] <alex_joni> do you have any USB stuff plugged in?
[09:00:33] <jmkasunich> no
[09:00:47] <jmkasunich> I could disable the mobo usb controller in the bios
[09:00:56] <alex_joni> "Periodic SMI rates available on many systems are every 64 seconds (approximately one minute), 32 seconds, 16 seconds, 8 seconds, 64 milliseconds, 32 milliseconds, 16 milliseconds, 8 milliseconds, and one millisecond. These periodic SMI rates are provided as an example, and some hardware embodiments may provide a much wider range of periodic occurrences that may be used by the USB support software and the BIOS."
[09:01:10] <jmkasunich> (already disabled the sound in the bios, and power management is off
[09:01:28] <alex_joni> "The SMI is initially set by the USB support software to be generated at a slow rate, such as, for example, every minute or every 30 seconds, so as not to unnecessarily impede performance of the system during the boot process by causing unneeded processing of SMIs. The USB support software then starts the USB host controller such that the USB host controller processes USB device descriptors using the obtained portion of memory, the USB
[09:01:33] <jmkasunich> hmm, I've heard SMI in connection with RTAI latency problems
[09:01:49] <alex_joni> ok, phew
[09:01:49] <jmkasunich> lemme reboot and turn off USB in bios
[09:01:56] <alex_joni> was afraid you're gonna ask what SMI is
[09:02:16] <jmkasunich> system management interrupt
[09:02:25] <alex_joni> ok, just read that too
[09:02:58] <jmkasunich> http://www.captain.at/rtai-smi-high-latency.php
[09:03:06] <alex_joni> any wireless on that pc?
[09:03:50] <jmkasunich> no
[09:04:10] <alex_joni> ok, the SMI sounds like a good guess
[09:10:29] <jmkasunich> arg - disableing usb didn't fix it
[09:10:49] <jmkasunich> (I didn't expect it to, after reading some webpages about SMI)
[09:11:02] <jmkasunich> seems you need to disable it at kernel build time
[09:11:21] <alex_joni> hmm.. it seems you can make that rtai module they talk about
[09:13:28] <jmkasunich> ?
[09:16:22] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: RTAI comes with a kernel module, which disables all or certain SMI interrupt. You have to set the SMI options before you compile RTAI, or compile the SMI disabling module individually as I did.
[09:16:50] <jmkasunich> that means I need to get all the rtai source, right?
[09:17:35] <alex_joni> yeah
[09:17:37] <alex_joni> apt-get source
[09:17:47] <jmkasunich> apt-get source rtai ?
[09:17:55] <alex_joni> whatever I named the package, right
[09:18:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is getting old :D
[09:18:07] <alex_joni> dpkg -l | grep rtai
[09:19:23] <alex_joni> I think rtai_3.3
[09:19:34] <alex_joni> http://dsplabs.cs.utt.ro/emc2/dists/dapper/emc2/source/rtai_3.3-1.tar.gz
[09:20:09] <jmkasunich> rebooting again, then I'll get it
[09:22:15] <jmk-st> getting the source nwo
[09:22:16] <jmk-st> now
[09:22:47] <jmk-st> btw, this is the pc I want to use as my machine controller
[09:25:34] <jmk-st> ok, got sources
[09:25:40] <jmk-st> I don't have a gcc yet
[09:25:54] <jmk-st> which version did you use for the kernel
[09:28:30] <jmk-st> alex_joni: still there?
[09:28:33] <alex_joni> yup
[09:28:36] <alex_joni> was a bit busy
[09:28:39] <alex_joni> 4.0 I think
[09:28:47] <alex_joni> but apt-get build-dep emc2 should pull it all in
[09:29:09] <jmk-st> yep
[09:29:21] <jmk-st> downloading 22meg
[09:29:54] <jmk-st> I sure hope I can get this to work
[09:30:02] <jmk-st> 800MHz P3 should be pretty decent
[09:30:11] <alex_joni> right
[09:30:25] <alex_joni> wonder if you can't make it work with the existing smi-module
[09:30:33] <jmk-st> matrox millennium in AGP slot, 4 PIC (one with a 3-com NIC), and 2 ISA
[09:30:40] <alex_joni> there's an insmod parameter "smiReset"
[09:31:01] <alex_joni> I would try 'insmod smi-module smiReset=1'
[09:31:05] <alex_joni> then rmmod smi-module
[09:31:22] <alex_joni> the unloading should do something to smi (rthal_smi_restore)
[09:31:39] <jmk-st> where is smi-module? I only see rtai-smi.ko
[09:32:03] <alex_joni> that one
[09:32:07] <alex_joni> the smi-module is the source
[09:32:20] <alex_joni> it seems the version I compiled already has the rthal_smi_disable() in it
[09:32:48] <jmk-st> I'm gonna let the apt-get build-dep finish ( a minute or so)
[09:32:58] <jmk-st> then gry the smi module
[09:33:00] <jmk-st> try
[09:33:42] <jmk-st> gonna need the build deps anyway ;-)
[09:33:46] <alex_joni> that's true
[09:34:13] <alex_joni> it seems the captain.at page adds smiReset=1 by default
[09:34:27] <alex_joni> which you can do at insmod time
[09:34:37] <alex_joni> but they also change this define:
[09:34:42] <alex_joni> #define CONFIG_RTAI_HW_SMI_ALL1 // <<<=== IMPORTANTE
[09:34:54] <alex_joni> in the rtai 3.3 I packaged it's set to 0
[09:35:14] <jmk-st> I got this in dmesg just now:
[09:35:15] <jmk-st> [ 889.710176] RTAI: Intel chipset found, enabling SMI workaround.
[09:35:15] <jmk-st> [ 889.710197] SMI module loaded
[09:35:22] <jmk-st> when I loaded the module
[09:35:25] <alex_joni> ok..
[09:35:33] <jmk-st> running the test now
[09:35:34] <alex_joni> maybe (hopefully) it's any better now
[09:36:02] <jmk-st> nope
[09:36:07] <alex_joni> argh
[09:36:14] <alex_joni> did you pass smiReset=1 ?
[09:36:17] <jmk-st> yes
[09:36:26] <alex_joni> try unloading the module, see how it behaves?
[09:36:27] <jmk-st> I didn't rmmod the smi module yet
[09:38:12] <jmk-st> still no good
[09:38:40] <alex_joni> ok, then the last hope is the #define in the module
[09:39:11] <jmk-st> where is the rtai source installed?
[09:39:12] <alex_joni> rtai/base/arch/i386/calibration/smi-module.c
[09:39:23] <alex_joni> in the dir where you did the apt-get source
[09:39:43] <jmk-st> ah, my home dir
[09:40:40] <jmk-st> * jmk-st reads README.SMI
[09:41:07] <alex_joni> there's a setsmi utility it seems
[09:42:33] <alex_joni> huh, one guy seems to think that an ACPI enabled kernel helps with this
[09:43:05] <alex_joni> you did turn off all APM from the BIOS.. right?
[09:43:57] <jmk-st> yes
[09:44:39] <jmk-st> ok, I need to edit #define CONFIG_RTAI_HW_SMI_ALL0 ?
[09:44:44] <jmk-st> change it to 1?
[09:46:39] <alex_joni> I would try that
[09:46:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni curses at the rtai API
[09:47:09] <alex_joni> https://www.rtai.org/documentation/magma/html/api/
[09:47:20] <jmk-st> * jmk-st curses at apt-get source - all the files are owned by root
[09:47:21] <alex_joni> it's from 18 Jan 2005
[09:47:40] <alex_joni> jmk-st: you still need root to install the module, so don't bother changing the owner
[09:47:44] <alex_joni> just use su -
[09:47:47] <alex_joni> err.. sudo -s
[09:47:56] <jmk-st> I know
[09:48:06] <jmk-st> but I need to restart my editor with sudo
[09:48:15] <alex_joni> :-)
[09:49:04] <jmk-st> ok, where do I invoke make? the rtai dir?
[09:49:40] <jmk-st> oh, theres a makefile in each dir
[09:50:05] <jmk-st> just run it in the dir where I changed the source I think
[09:50:26] <alex_joni> that's a bogs makefile.. unless I didn't clean up the package
[09:50:33] <alex_joni> it's KBUILD.. so not that easy
[09:50:41] <jmk-st> nefs
[09:50:56] <alex_joni> get the Makefile from captain.at
[09:51:03] <alex_joni> that one should work without too much hassle
[09:51:06] <alex_joni> http://www.captain.at/rtai-smi-high-latency.php
[09:51:42] <alex_joni> the Makefile you got there assumes you have the sources where I had them
[09:51:47] <alex_joni> Link: /usr/src/modules/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration/Makefile.kbuild
[09:52:23] <alex_joni> but that was because of the way kpkg builds additional modules for the kernel
[09:52:44] <jmk-st> I can tell that I'm tired
[09:52:53] <jmk-st> because I keep falling behind what you are saying
[09:53:08] <jmk-st> I'm seeing the changes to the file on the captain at page
[09:53:12] <jmk-st> lemme make those first
[09:53:38] <alex_joni> ok
[09:53:42] <alex_joni> * alex_joni slows down
[09:54:56] <jmk-st> looks like one of the changes was already there
[09:55:13] <alex_joni> right
[09:55:19] <jmk-st> (the call to rthal_smi_disable() right before the return
[09:55:19] <alex_joni> that's what I said a while ago :)
[09:55:28] <jmk-st> see, I said I was slow
[09:55:29] <alex_joni> you only need to change the #define
[09:55:34] <jmk-st> right
[09:55:49] <alex_joni> the smiReset you can pass at insmod time
[09:55:54] <jmk-st> (I also changed the default so I don't have to specity smiReset at instmod time
[09:55:58] <alex_joni> or that
[09:56:10] <jmk-st> ok, changed and saved
[09:56:14] <jmk-st> now makefile stuff
[09:56:24] <alex_joni> mv the Makefile out of the way
[09:56:36] <jmk-st> the one in i386/calibration?
[09:56:40] <alex_joni> right
[09:56:54] <alex_joni> and make a new one with the contents from http://www.captain.at/rtai-smi-high-latency.php
[09:57:07] <jmk-st> ok, the one thats there now is a symlink
[09:57:11] <jmk-st> to a place that doesn't exist
[09:57:32] <jmk-st> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 68 2006-12-22 04:25 Makefile -> /usr/src/modules/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration/Makefile.kbuild
[09:57:32] <jmk-st> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 210 2005-12-05 12:33 Makefile.kbuild
[09:57:41] <alex_joni> yeah, that's where I had the sources
[09:58:04] <alex_joni> remember apt-get source gets you the exact tree I was working on when I packaged the stuff
[09:58:33] <alex_joni> mv Makefile Makefile.old
[09:58:36] <jmk-st> the download is done, would it make sense for me to go to the right place and apt-get source again?
[09:58:38] <alex_joni> touch Makefile
[09:58:41] <alex_joni> no
[09:58:45] <jmk-st> ok
[09:58:54] <alex_joni> try the Makefile from that page first (way easier if it works)
[09:59:46] <jmk-st> ok, I have a makefile now
[10:00:02] <jmk-st> just run make? or do I have to pass it args?
[10:00:17] <alex_joni> make
[10:00:20] <alex_joni> make modules
[10:00:33] <alex_joni> make is enough
[10:00:42] <alex_joni> it calls "make ... modules" by itself
[10:00:45] <jmk-st> root@shoptask:/home/jmkasunich/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration# make
[10:00:46] <jmk-st> make -C /lib/modules/2.6.15-magma/build -I/usr/include/asm/mach-default/ SUBDIRS=/home/jmkasunich/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration modules
[10:00:46] <jmk-st> make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-magma'
[10:00:46] <jmk-st> make[2]: *** No rule to make target `/home/jmkasunich/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration/smi.c', needed by `/home/jmkasunich/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration/smi.o'. Stop.
[10:01:11] <alex_joni> ok, I see the problem
[10:01:15] <alex_joni> edit the Makefile
[10:01:33] <jmk-st> ready
[10:01:59] <alex_joni> obj-m := rtai_smi.o
[10:02:19] <jmk-st> instead of just smi.o ?
[10:02:20] <alex_joni> rtai_smi-onjs := smi-module.c
[10:02:26] <alex_joni> rtai_smi-objs := smi-module.c
[10:02:27] <alex_joni> right
[10:03:11] <jmk-st> rtai_smi-objs := smi-module.c gets added right after the previous line?
[10:03:23] <alex_joni> yes
[10:03:47] <jmk-st> make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.15-magma'
[10:03:47] <jmk-st> LD [M] /home/jmkasunich/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration/rtai_smi.o
[10:03:47] <jmk-st> /home/jmkasunich/rtai-3.3/base/arch/i386/calibration/smi-module.c: file not recognized: File format not recognized
[10:04:05] <alex_joni> hang on
[10:04:32] <alex_joni> rtai_smi-objs := smi-module.o
[10:05:08] <jmk-st> that worked
[10:05:23] <jmk-st> so now I have a nice shiny new module, in my home directory tree
[10:05:29] <jmk-st> gotta install it?
[10:05:32] <alex_joni> mv it to /lib/modules/ etc
[10:05:37] <alex_joni> root can do that ;)
[10:05:47] <alex_joni> save the old one though
[10:06:29] <jmk-st> now you tell me
[10:06:55] <jmk-st> oh well, we didn't need that old thing anyway
[10:06:56] <jmk-st> ;-)
[10:07:19] <jmk-st> insmod the new module, and try the latency test again?
[10:09:30] <jmk-st> I think it worked!
[10:09:37] <jmk-st> 80 seconds so far
[10:10:34] <alex_joni> great
[10:10:43] <alex_joni> now go to bed
[10:10:59] <jmk-st> in a minute
[10:11:07] <alex_joni> I know I'm sleepy enough :D
[10:11:18] <jmk-st> didn't you just wake up?
[10:11:23] <alex_joni> 2 hours ago
[10:11:30] <alex_joni> but I'm dead tired .. not sure why
[13:30:38] <alex_joni> logger_dev: bookmark
[13:30:38] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2006-12-22.txt
[13:49:24] <jepler_> jmkasunich: is it on rtai that rtapi_get_time() is real slow?
[13:51:44] <SWPadnos> I guess I will ;)
[14:12:10] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[14:12:49] <steve_stallings> morning SWP
[14:15:19] <alex_joni> hi steve
[14:18:02] <steve_stallings> hi alex, I really like the nice drawing for Santa with full compliance to regulations, printed copies for some of my friends who call themselves "engineers" but are really paper pushers 8-)
[14:18:22] <alex_joni> thought everyone in here would like that
[14:33:56] <SWPadnos> hiya Steve
[14:35:45] <steve_stallings> SWP - any need for me to settle up on the group buy today? headed out for several days holiday trip this afternoon
[14:36:26] <SWPadnos> Not immediately. I still need to finalize the shipping costs and such, so I don't have a good total for you yet
[14:36:52] <steve_stallings> k
[14:37:06] <SWPadnos> it looks like they want to do one charge, but they may drop-ship, so thet'll make things even more interesting :)
[14:37:49] <jepler_> we could pay you the board costs now and the shipping cost in meal(s) at that mexican restaurant next fest
[14:37:59] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:38:45] <skunkworks> alex_joni: intense rtai stuff lastnight/this morning. is that going to be worked into main kernel? (don't really understand but look like you guys where able to disable another latency causer)
[14:39:01] <SWPadnos> I still don't know if I'll be re-shipping or they'll drop-ship. there are around 12 addresses, which may be too many for them to drop-ship to
[14:39:21] <alex_joni> skunkworks: that one was mobo specific
[14:39:36] <alex_joni> I don't want to put that into the generic packages
[14:39:54] <skunkworks> ok - makes sense
[14:39:59] <alex_joni> because I have not much clue what it does on various boards
[14:48:55] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[16:47:46] <jepler_> make_shortcut is defined and used in pickconfig.tcl -- hard to see how it could be undefined
[16:48:08] <jmkasunich> yeah, he is pasting the entire error message in a /msg to me
[16:48:12] <jmkasunich> arrgh
[16:48:18] <cradek> heh
[16:48:23] <jepler_> you are either a saint or a fool for trying to help him
[16:48:33] <jmkasunich> a fool
[16:48:58] <jmkasunich> I have not acknowledged that I'm even getting the /msg (and I won't)
[16:49:01] <cradek> maybe he used make install and it's broken
[16:49:30] <cradek> oh, defined and used in the same file, hmm
[16:49:31] <jmkasunich> I told him to put it in pastebin, and until he does I'm not doing anything
[16:49:41] <jmkasunich> I want to see all the output, not just the error message
[16:49:54] <jmkasunich> so I can see what version he built, etc
[16:50:07] <jepler_> flo-h has reported some problems with "make install" (not this problem) and I think they're now all fixed
[16:50:24] <cradek> great
[16:50:29] <cradek> I should try it sometime
[16:50:59] <jmkasunich> alex_joni helped me fix my latency problem last night
[16:53:01] <jepler_> I saw that
[16:53:20] <jepler_> I didn't try to understand the details
[16:53:50] <jmkasunich> its a known problem that apparently affects a lot of "newer" Intel systems
[16:53:59] <jepler_> yay "newer"
[16:54:00] <jmkasunich> newer in quotes because this isn't that new
[16:54:54] <cradek> yuck
[16:55:00] <jmkasunich> http://www.captain.at/rtai-smi-high-latency.php
[16:56:16] <jmkasunich> fsck - if he can't figure out pastebin, he's not gonna be able to figure out emc
[16:58:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> poor jmk.
[16:58:48] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how can you survive the endless "help me" posts?
[16:59:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra is well aware that he has done the same thing himself
[16:59:34] <jmkasunich> Lerneaen_Hydra has _not_ done the same thing
[16:59:58] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, not the same thing, but still asked for information of which was probably on the wiki
[17:00:09] <skunkworks> same here. ;)
[17:00:15] <jmkasunich> I don't know how much of the problem is simply language problems, but unless this guy can communicate better we can't help him
[17:00:33] <cradek> but then if one of us gives a URL to the wiki, can you figure out what to do with it?
[17:00:35] <skunkworks> too bad someone doesn't know portugues on here
[17:00:56] <jepler_> ah maybe it would occur if you don't have a ~/Desktop directory
[17:01:20] <jepler_> yep
[17:01:41] <cradek> wow, that's obscure
[17:02:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: if I get the link today, yes, probably, if I got it the first time I ran emc, probably not
[17:02:04] <jmkasunich> what is make_shortcut doing anyway? making an icon to start emc?
[17:02:16] <jepler_> jmkasunich: yes
[17:02:30] <jmkasunich> IOW, he doesn't even need that part
[17:04:02] <jmkasunich> who gets to explain "cvs up" to him?
[17:04:43] <cradek> alex :-)
[17:04:58] <cradek> (I bet alex has been helping him a lot if it wasn't any of us)
[17:06:07] <jmkasunich> please work, please work.....
[17:06:28] <jmkasunich> why the f--- wouldn't he have a Desktop dir?
[17:06:39] <jepler_> damnit where's my coffee mug?
[17:06:42] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[17:06:46] <cradek> in here
[17:07:15] <jepler> oh oops
[17:08:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> bbl
[17:12:49] <jmkasunich> I wonder if he actually got the fix?
[17:13:07] <jepler> nfc
[17:13:16] <jmkasunich> if he checked out the branch tag, instead of the branch itself, he wouldn't get any updates I don't think
[17:13:28] <jmkasunich> there's no fscking way we can teach this guy cvs
[17:14:33] <cradek> there's only a branch tag - there are no version tags on that branch
[17:17:22] <cradek> cat: cvs/*: No such file or directory
[17:17:56] <jmkasunich> duh
[17:19:24] <jepler> grep Revision tcl/bin/pickconfig.tcl
[17:19:25] <jepler> # $Revision: $
[17:19:35] <jepler> you could try going this route to find out the version he has
[17:19:40] <jmkasunich> good idea
[17:19:53] <jepler> normally I hate Revision tags but maybe today it will be useful
[17:20:04] <jmkasunich> but I don't want to overload him, lets see what his CVS says
[17:20:38] <cradek> cvs stat works just as well
[17:21:21] <jepler> oh hm -- I didn't know that command
[17:21:28] <jmkasunich> ditto
[17:21:43] <cradek> oh!
[17:21:45] <jepler> that's useful
[17:21:49] <cradek> yeah I use it all the time
[17:22:01] <jmkasunich> usefull, but a crapload of output for guest to parse
[17:25:24] <cradek> darnit wrong channel
[17:42:12] <jmk-st> he shouldn't have to rebuild for that change should he?
[17:42:30] <jepler> no but if you want to encourage "build every time" rather than teaching a complicated rule...
[17:42:34] <jmk-st> ok
[17:45:15] <SWPadnos> weird - OOcalc has no "binary" display format (that I see)
[17:45:32] <jepler> oocalc isn't for people like you
[17:45:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:46:14] <SWPadnos> ah - there is a function called BASE taht can display a number in any base
[17:47:16] <SWPadnos> I'm trying to figure out why Peter likes the bit-reversal method for doing interleaved PWM
[17:47:33] <jmkasunich> cause bit reversal is trivial in hardware?
[17:47:43] <SWPadnos> that could be
[17:47:54] <SWPadnos> I'm trying to prove to myself that it works
[17:48:04] <SWPadnos> digit reversal isn't a common mathematical operation
[17:52:57] <jepler> I don't see how it would work
[17:53:15] <jmkasunich> it will I bet
[17:53:38] <jepler> consider 4 bit values. 0001 is less than 14 other values. 1000 is only less than 7 other values.
[17:53:54] <jmkasunich> normal PWM - inthe time it takes the counter to run a full cycle, N of its values will be less than the target value N, and M-N will be more (M is the modulus of the counter)
[17:54:02] <jmkasunich> bit reversal won't change that
[17:54:26] <jmkasunich> it will only break up those N and M-N into smaller chunks instead of having them all adjacent
[17:54:39] <jepler> perhaps I didn't understand the method then
[17:55:28] <jepler> do I keep the PWM value of 0001 and compare it to successive counter values -- but the counter goes 0000 1000 0100 1100 ... 0111 1111 ?
[17:55:36] <jmkasunich> yes
[17:55:47] <SWPadnos> the counter itself doesn't get reversed until the comparison, I think
[17:55:51] <jmkasunich> counter and comparator are both the same for both cases
[17:55:58] <jepler> ok then I misunderstood
[17:55:59] <SWPadnos> so the counter still goes 0000 0001 0010 0011 ...
[17:56:06] <jmkasunich> you just bit-reverse the counter value between the counter and the compare
[17:56:19] <jmkasunich> he probably has a single master counter
[17:56:24] <SWPadnos> but the comparisons are 0000 1000 0010 1100 ... (reversed every second time, I think
[17:56:29] <jepler> the bit-reversed counter is just a permutation of the 15 values
[17:56:29] <jmkasunich> then a block that either bit reverses or not
[17:56:31] <jmkasunich> no
[17:56:33] <SWPadnos> yes, there's a reference counter
[17:56:51] <jmkasunich> the output of the "optional reverse" block goes to the comparator
[17:59:10] <SWPadnos> strangely, the Mesa FPGA only reverses the top 8 bits, and the lower 3 or 4 are left alone
[17:59:23] <SWPadnos> maybe to keep the output frequency from being too high
[17:59:27] <jmkasunich> maybe he doesn't want the output frequency to get too extreme
[17:59:31] <jmkasunich> what you said ;-)
[17:59:32] <SWPadnos> that could be ;)
[18:00:23] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich hides from the happy Brazilian
[18:00:33] <cradek> haha
[18:00:42] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: is thank you enough or do I need to bless you too?
[18:00:52] <SWPadnos> ah yes - 2 posts down from the one jepler linked Peter notes that he can control the output frequency using bit reversal, but not with the overflow method
[18:01:00] <SWPadnos> err - 3 posts down
[18:01:44] <SWPadnos> oh christ
[18:02:03] <SWPadnos> that's one happy (and possibly quite religious) Brazilian
[18:05:44] <jmkasunich> that bit reversal thing is very clever
[18:05:48] <jmkasunich> have to remember that one
[18:06:09] <SWPadnos> it's in the pwmgen.vhd file under hal/drivers/m5i20 :)
[18:06:31] <jmkasunich> sucks for software implementations tho, bit reversal isn't pretty on a general purpose CPU
[18:06:37] <SWPadnos> nope
[18:07:26] <jmkasunich> it also means he needs a magnitude comparator instead of a simple equality comparator for each channel
[18:07:33] <SWPadnos> it seems fragile though - if you reverse on the "odd" counts, then you'll always have a value above 128 (which may be desirable)
[18:07:38] <jmkasunich> for a long word that can get either complex, or slow
[18:07:46] <jmkasunich> huh?
[18:08:09] <SWPadnos> well, consider the 3-bit sequence 000 001 010 011 100 101 110 111
[18:08:10] <jmkasunich> you always reverse for PDM, and never reverse for PWM
[18:08:17] <SWPadnos> err
[18:08:30] <SWPadnos> ah, ok. now I get it. thanks
[18:09:07] <SWPadnos> you put the high frequency bit in the highest value position, which gives you a high frequency change
[18:09:12] <SWPadnos> duh. that is clever
[18:09:13] <jmkasunich> yeah
[18:09:31] <SWPadnos> I was stuck on the vhdl code, which looked like it was only doing the reversal some of the time
[18:10:03] <jmkasunich> I wonder what the FFT spectrum of a bit reversed counter is
[18:10:05] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/br.py
[18:10:17] <jmkasunich> I bet its nearly ideal for running thru a lowpass filter
[18:10:51] <SWPadnos> we were discussing ripple earlier - dunno if you have any corrections for my ramblings :)
[18:11:27] <jmkasunich> from a signal processing point of view, both PWM and PDM can be considered one bit quantization of the carrier signal
[18:11:32] <jmkasunich> for PWM the carrier is a triangle
[18:11:49] <jmkasunich> correction, sawtooth probably
[18:11:57] <jmkasunich> if its a simple counter
[18:11:58] <alex_joni> hi guys
[18:12:01] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back home
[18:12:07] <jmkasunich> for PDM its that bit reversed signal
[18:12:08] <jepler> some PWMs are triangle -- AVRs have such a mode
[18:12:19] <jmkasunich> yeah, we always use triangle for drives
[18:12:22] <jmkasunich> hi alex_joni
[18:13:13] <alex_joni> sorry about guestXXX, shouldn't have told him how to get HEAD
[18:13:27] <jepler> fwiw that bug was in 2.1 and HEAD
[18:13:36] <jmkasunich> and now its not!
[18:13:44] <cradek> I told you it was alex's fault
[18:14:13] <alex_joni> http://pastebin.ca/288899
[18:14:35] <jmkasunich> oh boy
[18:14:48] <cradek> weeeee
[18:14:49] <alex_joni> cradek: I got my share
[18:15:09] <cradek> yryryr?
[18:15:10] <alex_joni> that's only a part of it :)
[18:15:11] <jmkasunich> when he /msg'ed me I didn't answer
[18:15:20] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: same here, because I was away
[18:15:28] <jmkasunich> its easier to just fade away on the public channel
[18:15:53] <alex_joni> but /wc works great :D
[18:15:56] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: thank you _very_ much for the help last night!
[18:16:05] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: glad you got it working
[18:16:27] <alex_joni> the only thing we should do is add that piece of info into the wiki
[18:16:32] <jmk-st> I beat on it some last night (after the netsplit) and more today
[18:16:40] <jmk-st> no latency more than 15-18uS
[18:16:41] <alex_joni> yeah?
[18:16:46] <alex_joni> sounds great
[18:17:11] <jmk-st> did things like "dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/dev/null" and scp'ing an iso from my other box to this one at the same time
[18:17:21] <jmk-st> so disk reads, disk writes, and network activity all at once
[18:17:31] <jmk-st> plus much dragging of windows and such
[18:17:36] <cradek> jmk-st: run a few glxgears too.
[18:17:46] <jmk-st> how do I do that>?
[18:17:50] <alex_joni> glxgears &
[18:17:59] <cradek> glxgears & glxgears & glxgears &
[18:18:16] <jmk-st> I see gears, they don't turn fast
[18:18:18] <cradek> that kills latency on my machine
[18:18:25] <cradek> drag them around, maximize one
[18:18:26] <alex_joni> while (1) ; do glxgears& ; done
[18:18:45] <jmk-st> this is a matrox card, probably no hardware accel
[18:18:59] <jmk-st> the gears are updating at 1-2 frames /sec
[18:19:03] <jmk-st> but the latency is fine
[18:19:07] <jepler> jmk-st: I can plot the fft of the waveform I get, but I don't have a clue how to interpret it...
[18:19:10] <cradek> good
[18:19:17] <alex_joni> jepler: put it online
[18:19:48] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/fft.png
[18:20:17] <cradek> this is fft of what?
[18:20:19] <jepler> I am using numarray.fft.fft([bit sequence generated by the algorithm]) and then printing the magnitude of the resulting values
[18:20:39] <jepler> I feed that to gnuplot
[18:20:57] <jmk-st> I'm not familiar with raw fft output
[18:21:01] <jepler> it's an 13/256 duty cycle
[18:21:19] <SWPadnos> is that a complex FFT or real?
[18:21:21] <jmk-st> usually I'm looking at something from spice or whatever, and they neatly convert it and give a frequency axis
[18:21:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what does jmk-st stand for?
[18:21:43] <jepler> it's a complex fft but I write the magnitude of the values
[18:21:48] <jmk-st> you are looking at the one bit output (the PDM) or the bit reversed count value?
[18:21:50] <SWPadnos> it's "normalized" to the number of points you use
[18:21:56] <jepler> 256 points
[18:21:59] <jmk-st> st = shoptask
[18:22:07] <jepler> I'm looking at the one-bit output
[18:22:10] <jmk-st> this is the computer I hope to use for my machine
[18:22:18] <SWPadnos> right, so you get only 128 on the horizontal azis, because you can only get to half the sampling frequency
[18:22:23] <jmk-st> jepler: I was talking about the reversed count value
[18:22:34] <jepler> jmk-st: oh -- I can plot that pretty easily
[18:23:33] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/fft2.png
[18:23:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, shoptask. IRC while milling?
[18:24:01] <jmkasunich> keyword "hope" to use
[18:24:05] <jepler> lunchtime here .. bbl
[18:24:06] <jmkasunich> I'm working on the conversion
[18:24:15] <jmkasunich> the computer is pieces on my bench right now
[18:24:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha, ok
[18:24:38] <jmkasunich> I went digging thru my boxes last night to see what I could build
[18:25:26] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/shoptask/pc-bench.jpg
[18:25:42] <jmkasunich> FCC approved for emission of electrical noise!
[18:25:59] <skunkworks> page cannot be displayed
[18:26:08] <jmkasunich> hmm
[18:26:19] <SWPadnos> not bad - 20G drive, looks like a G200 video card ...
[18:26:28] <skunkworks> is it just me?
[18:26:33] <jmkasunich> guess so?
[18:26:36] <SWPadnos> must be ;)
[18:26:48] <skunkworks> got it
[18:26:55] <skunkworks> odd
[18:27:04] <SWPadnos> nice small board you got there
[18:27:14] <jmkasunich> regular size mobo
[18:27:26] <SWPadnos> looks a bit short - normal width though
[18:27:48] <SWPadnos> like 9x13 instead of 11x13 (or whatever)
[18:27:56] <jmkasunich> 8.5x12 I think
[18:28:13] <jmkasunich> yeah
[18:28:27] <SWPadnos> I'm about to call Mesa - can you email me the spreadsheet as it stands?
[18:28:35] <jmkasunich> more stuff to go in the box; http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/shoptask/geckos-sink-ps.jpg
[18:28:36] <jmkasunich> YES
[18:28:38] <jmkasunich> OOPS
[18:28:38] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: did you add my latest boards?
[18:28:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:28:50] <SWPadnos> I have them if he doesn't
[18:28:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jmkasunich: nice paper
[18:28:56] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: no, tell me again
[18:29:14] <SWPadnos> (1ea 7i31 7i33, 7i37)
[18:29:19] <alex_joni> 1x7i31 1x7i33 1x7i37
[18:29:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I guess that's not too unreasonable if the stepper and some other part (leadscrew maybe) become resonant
[18:29:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so it swings back and forth
[18:29:52] <jmkasunich> what paper?
[18:30:03] <jmkasunich> you mean the one that jepler found?
[18:30:56] <alex_joni> G202 ?
[18:30:59] <skunkworks> geckos? I think that is cheating ;) step and direction - whatever
[18:31:06] <jmkasunich> G202, yes
[18:31:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the one jepler posted, yeah, silly me
[18:31:25] <SWPadnos> hmmm - you may want to have the 3 geckos facing the same way, and stagger them so you can adjust the trimpots withoug removing them (though that would interfere with a fourth driver)
[18:31:26] <jmkasunich> the machine has mounts for NEMA34 steppers, I'm not gonna make things harder for myself
[18:31:39] <SWPadnos> oh - stepperzs. nevermind ;)
[18:31:40] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: I had those thoughts yesterday
[18:31:49] <jmkasunich> I want to keep the 4th drive option
[18:32:15] <SWPadnos> I'm pondering whether I should sell my G340s and either (a) use real analog drives or (b) wait for he CPLD version
[18:32:16] <jmkasunich> there is one pot per drive for low speed smoothness, but I determined that I can adjust it ok
[18:32:31] <SWPadnos> you can always make a right-angle screwdriver ;)
[18:32:36] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: your boards are added to the list now
[18:32:38] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how much are geckos each?
[18:32:42] <alex_joni> thanks
[18:32:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> $100?
[18:32:47] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: 120 something
[18:33:01] <SWPadnos> $114 for the non-pulse-multiplying ones, $144 (I think) for the ones with the PLL
[18:33:05] <Lerneaen_Hydra> one stepper per gecko?
[18:33:14] <SWPadnos> and I think $150+ for the ones with integral caps
[18:33:16] <alex_joni> 134$ 1 piece for the G202
[18:33:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pulse multiplication sounds sort of stupid
[18:33:24] <skunkworks> vampire ones?
[18:33:27] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: not at all
[18:33:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> unless you can soft-toggle it on/off
[18:33:32] <SWPadnos> it is if you have hardware step generation, but not if you're using software only
[18:33:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> can you soft-toggle it?
[18:33:57] <SWPadnos> no
[18:33:58] <alex_joni> skunkworks: the G203V is 147$
[18:34:09] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: no, but you output 10 times less pulses for the same speed
[18:34:13] <SWPadnos> it's a jumper-set multiplier, x1, x2, x5, x10
[18:34:21] <alex_joni> say you have a gecko with 10-microsteps
[18:34:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so emc outputs 1 step the motor moves 10?
[18:34:39] <SWPadnos> and the same smoothness, since it's still a microstepping drive internally
[18:34:40] <alex_joni> if you use the 10x multiplier, you command one step and the drive performs 10 microsteps
[18:34:44] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[18:34:49] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 10 microsteps
[18:35:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> just call it sinosodial voltage instead :p
[18:35:06] <alex_joni> so you end up with the step resolution, but microstep smoothness
[18:35:58] <alex_joni> skunkworks: available from today (the G203V)
[18:36:35] <skunkworks> He called them vampires because they can't be killed ;)
[18:36:46] <SWPadnos> the G203 is the drive to buy, if you want something that can't be killed
[18:37:32] <jmkasunich> back in a bit
[18:50:10] <jepler> jmkasunich: what's the thing in the far upper-right of that photo -- it has some kind of weird coiled connector on it
[18:50:34] <jepler> er, weird coiled wiring
[18:50:40] <SWPadnos> a phone?
[18:50:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> vampire BNC network connectors are teh shit
[18:52:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_tap
[18:53:14] <jmkasunich> jepler: the pc photo?
[18:53:25] <jepler> jmkasunich: yes, I was joking at seeing a corded phone
[18:53:59] <jmkasunich> I'm a cordophile
[18:54:26] <jmkasunich> I hate cellphones and cordless phones, gimme an old fashioned handset anyday
[18:54:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra nods
[18:55:04] <jmkasunich> its funny, that phone is a cordless base station, we used to have a cordless handset for it that we kept in the bedroom because ther was no phone jack there
[18:55:09] <jmkasunich> the handset died
[18:55:26] <jmkasunich> the base station works as a corded phone, even without power
[18:55:43] <jmkasunich> I recently cut off the power cord and removed the antenna because they were a nuicance ;-)
[18:56:39] <jepler> how nice
[18:56:54] <jmkasunich> damn - I just found out that kelinginc.net is closed until the 28th
[18:56:59] <jmkasunich> I wanted to order my steppers today
[18:57:03] <jepler> I've heard advice to buy one corded phone, so that when your electricity goes out you can still call 911
[18:57:12] <jmkasunich> we have two
[18:57:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what is the standard for phones in the US? 70-ish VAC and signal?
[18:58:00] <jmkasunich> 48vdc loop voltage, 50-100V ac at something like 20Hz for ringing
[18:58:55] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ah, sounds similar
[18:59:39] <jmkasunich> ok. this time I really am going away for a bit
[19:00:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[19:00:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> not a chance
[19:00:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> you'll never leave
[19:00:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> evar!!
[19:00:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> bwahaha
[19:04:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> damn, foiled again
[19:12:14] <alex_joni> hmm.. I remember how it feels when the phone rings
[19:12:35] <alex_joni> was installing a phone socket for someone, and not having what to do with the wires, I put them in my mouth
[19:12:48] <alex_joni> let me tell you, that's not what you want to do when it rings
[19:12:57] <SWPadnos> that's painful. the ring can be up to 200V
[19:13:07] <alex_joni> 100V I think
[19:13:25] <SWPadnos> at least 100V, no more than 200V (or something of that sort)
[19:13:26] <alex_joni> I almost could feel the CLIP
[19:13:33] <alex_joni> (lol)
[19:15:14] <SWPadnos> jepler - I assume it's OK to ship your stuff to cradek?
[19:17:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, how much current can you pull out of the telephone cables?
[19:17:30] <cradek> SWPadnos: he's already said that's fine
[19:17:35] <SWPadnos> ok
[19:17:38] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: enough, but it's not legal
[19:17:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: who's going to know ;)
[19:17:59] <SWPadnos> it is legal for phones though
[19:17:59] <jepler> SWPadnos: yes
[19:19:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 10W? 100W?
[19:19:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> voltage will probably sag at 100W though
[19:19:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that's nearly an amp
[19:19:43] <alex_joni> 10W or less I think
[19:19:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> through those tiny wires
[19:19:50] <SWPadnos> 2A when the phone isn't ringing
[19:19:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, not much
[19:19:56] <SWPadnos> that's at 48V
[19:19:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> O.o
[19:20:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 2 A @ 48V?
[19:20:17] <SWPadnos> no - I was pointing out that 100W is ~2A at 48V
[19:20:23] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, right
[19:20:24] <SWPadnos> not saying that you can get that much
[19:20:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[21:43:09] <jmk-st> hmm, now glxinfo says direct rendering yes
[21:43:14] <jmk-st> I wonder what made it change its mind?
[21:43:23] <alex_joni> the biest I tell 'ya
[21:43:53] <cradek> jmk-st: probably you didn't have enough video memory for a depth buffer before
[21:44:04] <jmk-st> ok
[21:44:10] <cradek> I'm guessing you probably have a 4-8 meg card
[21:44:19] <jmk-st> 8 I believe
[21:44:28] <jmk-st> how do I tell it no direct rendering?
[21:44:40] <cradek> try it with first :-)
[21:44:59] <cradek> you want it if it doesn't kill latency
[21:46:05] <jmk-st> gears spinning nicely
[21:46:11] <jmk-st> latency 14uS so far
[21:46:44] <alex_joni> put a screwdriver between the gears
[21:46:49] <alex_joni> see if that kills latency
[21:46:58] <jmk-st> it doesn't like running two of them
[21:47:02] <jmk-st> 711uS latency
[21:47:07] <jmk-st> and only one runs at a time
[21:47:07] <cradek> same with my matrox
[21:47:13] <skunkworks> * skunkworks thinks alex is having too much christmas spirit
[21:47:23] <cradek> if it works for one window, AXIS will be fine and you should leave it
[21:47:23] <jmk-st> one set of gears spin for a couple seconds, then stops and the other starts
[21:47:28] <cradek> mine has been that way forever
[21:47:55] <jmk-st> ok
[21:48:50] <jmk-st> thanks for the help
[21:48:58] <jmk-st> * jmk-st is not an X pert
[21:49:43] <cradek> no problem
[21:50:19] <jmk-st> the crash was (I hope) a one time thing
[21:50:29] <cradek> you'll find out...
[21:50:38] <alex_joni> lol.. that's a vote of confidence
[21:50:58] <cradek> just hope your rambus ram isn't bad
[21:51:30] <jmk-st> I've restarted glxgears about 10 times with no problem
[21:51:30] <alex_joni> I have ~2 Gig of that stuff
[21:51:50] <jmk-st> it might have been something in the software rendering code that isn't being used now
[21:52:08] <cradek> alex_joni: that stuff is very costly
[21:52:33] <alex_joni> cradek: I got 2 workstations each with 1G in it
[21:52:34] <skunkworks> pain in the ass to find now also. we still have 2 motherboards with rambus
[21:52:40] <alex_joni> dual Xeon @ 1GHz
[21:52:42] <jmk-st> drat - I already removed the cdrom drive, otherwise I'd pop in the CD and run memtest86 for a few hours
[21:52:46] <alex_joni> for about 200/piece
[21:52:56] <cradek> jmk-st: it's on your boot menu
[21:53:01] <jmk-st> duh
[21:53:06] <skunkworks> :)
[21:53:23] <jmk-st> I was confusing that with the install CD validator test
[21:53:32] <jmk-st> ok, gonna do that, bye
[21:53:33] <skunkworks> does anyone else have windows xp as one of their boot options?
[21:53:42] <cradek> skunkworks: what's that?
[21:53:45] <skunkworks> :)
[21:53:50] <cradek> sorry
[21:54:06] <alex_joni> skunkworks: I have about 14 kernels and one win2k
[21:54:17] <skunkworks> nice
[21:54:27] <skunkworks> I was just happy to get my duel boot working.
[21:55:05] <cradek> dual!
[21:55:12] <alex_joni> this is : dapper, dapper, bastard, 2k
[21:55:25] <cradek> when you say that I always picture the windows and linux fighting to see who gets to boot
[21:55:34] <alex_joni> bastard is something between breezy and dapper
[21:55:35] <skunkworks> I think cradek wants to duel ;)
[21:55:46] <skunkworks> 10 paces?
[21:55:52] <alex_joni> 10 kernels
[21:56:38] <jtr> have xp here
[21:57:45] <jtr> skunkworks: dual-booting Dapper and XP here, but no realtime.
[21:58:05] <skunkworks> I have realtime - but it doesn't play well with my portable.
[21:58:32] <jtr> this is a laptop as well.
[22:00:08] <skunkworks> I should say - it runs but I get overuns.
[22:02:18] <jtr> I started with the live CD, but the laptop locks up during boot. I question the value of putting realtime on the laptop since there's no pport.
[22:02:44] <alex_joni> jtr: heh
[22:02:57] <alex_joni> there are parports though for cardbus
[22:03:01] <cradek> jtr: you can run emc2 without realtime if that's what you're interested in.
[22:03:19] <alex_joni> the cardbus parports should work like an PCI board
[22:03:32] <alex_joni> so it could (in theory) drive something
[22:04:27] <skunkworks> every 60 seconds or so I get 5 overruns
[22:04:37] <alex_joni> skunkworks: SMI
[22:04:42] <alex_joni> it's 64 seconds :D
[22:04:53] <jtr> well, hadn't thought about a cardbus port. Was thinking to get familiar with HAL, etc on this unit.
[22:04:57] <skunkworks> oh - you want to help me do a new kernel? :)
[22:05:04] <alex_joni> skunkworks: not a new kernel
[22:05:09] <alex_joni> you only need a new module
[22:05:15] <alex_joni> which jmk can probably email to you
[22:05:26] <jmkasunich> dapper?
[22:05:34] <skunkworks> that would be neat - my computer has a printer port.
[22:05:36] <skunkworks> yes
[22:05:50] <jmkasunich> I can send you a revised rtai_smi.ko
[22:06:11] <skunkworks> I would not mind trying it
[22:06:26] <skunkworks> how hard is it to install?
[22:06:34] <alex_joni> sudo cp ...
[22:06:35] <jmkasunich> sudo cp ;-)
[22:07:10] <jmkasunich> well, at the moment the system with that module is running memtest
[22:07:13] <skunkworks> that would be cool if it works
[22:07:26] <skunkworks> thats ok - when ever you get a chance
[22:07:34] <alex_joni> skunkworks: you can easily do it yourself too.. as an excercise
[22:07:36] <skunkworks> you have my email address
[22:08:01] <alex_joni> get the rtai sources, set them up, change a file, make a new Makefile, compile, copy to proper location
[22:08:29] <skunkworks> I was following you two last night - that was scary.
[22:08:51] <skunkworks> lots of knowing where stuff was - I still have a hard time editing xorg.conf :)
[22:08:59] <alex_joni> really?
[22:09:08] <alex_joni> * alex_joni never thought he can be scary :D
[22:09:28] <jmkasunich> I'm writing up what we found last night on my blog, if you think its wise I can post the modified module there, and link to it
[22:09:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I'll put it on the wiki
[22:10:01] <skunkworks> and then there is the damn case sensitive linux :)
[22:10:16] <alex_joni> didn't see that in the distro line
[22:10:20] <alex_joni> all damn small linux
[22:10:26] <alex_joni> only damn small linux
[22:11:10] <skunkworks> but I am learning. With lots of help :) (thanks again everyone)
[22:12:40] <skunkworks> was that a recent find? being able to disable the smi?
[22:12:57] <alex_joni> yeah, from this morning
[22:13:08] <alex_joni> you mean at RTAI?
[22:13:13] <skunkworks> yes
[22:13:21] <alex_joni> I think they know about SMI for about 3-4 years
[22:13:35] <alex_joni> but what works on some boards, doesn't work on others
[22:13:41] <jmkasunich> http://www.captain.at/rtai-smi-high-latency.php
[22:13:43] <skunkworks> ah
[22:13:46] <jmkasunich> that documents the issue
[22:14:05] <alex_joni> skunkworks: http://cvs.gna.org/cvsweb/magma/base/arch/i386/calibration/README.SMI?rev=1.4;content-type=text%2Fplain;cvsroot=rtai
[22:15:01] <skunkworks> can I tell if this thing has an intel chipset?
[22:15:12] <skunkworks> through dapper?
[22:15:13] <alex_joni> lspci -vva
[22:17:35] <skunkworks> vva?
[22:18:06] <skunkworks> says a isn't a valid option
[22:19:06] <alex_joni> -vv
[22:20:26] <skunkworks> that worked
[22:20:27] <skunkworks> 82801CA
[22:20:29] <skunkworks> cool
[22:22:03] <skunkworks> alex_joni: your link tries to open in real player ;)
[22:22:22] <skunkworks> xp is fun
[22:22:40] <alex_joni> content-type=text%2Fplain;
[22:22:53] <alex_joni> maybe your XP doesn't know how to read text
[22:22:59] <alex_joni> and it needs real player for that
[22:23:13] <skunkworks> that would be cool if that made my portable usable for realtime. icing on the cake
[22:23:46] <alex_joni> I should try a more recent emc2 on my laptop
[22:23:47] <jtr> same result here (another xp box); rebooting...
[22:24:02] <skunkworks> my video memory isn't shared.
[22:27:29] <skunkworks> got it.. THere is no settings in the bios for powersaving
[22:29:17] <SWPadnos> ok, it looks like Mesa will ship to me, and I'll break it up for everyone
[22:29:33] <SWPadnos> they have everything in stock, which is nice
[22:29:46] <jmkasunich> more addresses than they expected I guess
[22:29:54] <alex_joni> cool
[22:30:01] <SWPadnos> actually, I think it's because someone I hadn't talked to before got the email
[22:30:01] <alex_joni> were they happy about the order?
[22:30:11] <SWPadnos> I think so. $4k is a reasonable sum
[22:30:16] <alex_joni> I'd say
[22:30:19] <cradek> SWPadnos: wow that will be a lot of work for you
[22:30:41] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: put mine with the lowest priority ..
[22:30:47] <SWPadnos> eh - not too bad. I've mentioned to my wife that she shouldn't be throwing any boxes away ;)
[22:31:03] <alex_joni> I can wait 1-2 months :D
[22:31:32] <SWPadnos> I'll call to see what the inbound shipping charges will be, then check with UPS/FedEx for outbound. I can get totals to people next week (they won't ship until after Christmas anyway)
[22:31:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:32:00] <skunkworks> wow - thanks again SWPadnos
[22:32:26] <SWPadnos> no problem - now all we need to find is a motor supplier that'll give us the same deal ;)
[22:32:37] <alex_joni> heh
[22:32:42] <alex_joni> and to talk to mariss
[22:32:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:33:05] <SWPadnos> I think I'm more interested in "analog" servo drives these days. I suspect you get a better finish
[22:33:09] <alex_joni> to get him to do an servo driver :D
[22:33:13] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:33:23] <alex_joni> drive even
[22:33:35] <alex_joni> although I asked about the G340
[22:33:41] <alex_joni> and you can turn it into pure analog
[22:33:46] <cradek> SWPadnos: I know someone who will sell you a hydraulic K&T mill
[22:33:48] <SWPadnos> he's got reasonable discounts also
[22:33:55] <SWPadnos> oooh - uh, yay?
[22:34:20] <cradek> or at least some "analog" parts from it :-)
[22:34:20] <SWPadnos> it's really annoying that I have (a) no space and (b) no forklift
[22:34:27] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:34:48] <alex_joni> "analog" == "fluidy-ish" ?
[22:34:56] <cradek> haha yep
[22:35:09] <alex_joni> leaky stuff
[22:35:10] <skunkworks> sure - a great deal.
[22:35:20] <skunkworks> not too leakey
[22:35:46] <skunkworks> we actully have 4 hydraulic servos if you need ;)
[22:35:57] <SWPadnos> the only hydraulic thing I own (or really want to own, at this point) is a reasonably nice Greenlee chassis punch
[22:36:16] <skunkworks> :)
[22:36:17] <cradek> I have hydraulic brakes in a couple cars
[22:36:19] <SWPadnos> analog but electronically controllable, how's that"? ;)
[22:36:23] <alex_joni> I was looking at a hydraulic press for clamping connectors
[22:36:26] <cradek> I'd hate to replace those with digital
[22:36:28] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:36:30] <skunkworks> cradek: I hope on all your cars
[22:36:34] <SWPadnos> I have a friend that drives that way
[22:36:42] <SWPadnos> like UP/DOWN output from stepgen
[22:36:49] <alex_joni> haha
[22:36:51] <SWPadnos> no coasting allowed
[22:36:57] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wouldn't trust stepgen into his car
[22:37:03] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: no offence :D
[22:37:19] <SWPadnos> not with solenoids on the accelerator and brake, thank you
[22:37:26] <alex_joni> actually it's the PC I'm concearned about
[22:37:41] <skunkworks> bbl
[22:38:24] <jtr> * jtr is back
[22:38:35] <alex_joni> shady's back
[22:39:12] <jtr> bbl - out to dinner.
[22:39:26] <SWPadnos> ok - time to run off to dinner with my wife. I should have a shipping estimate when I get back (inbound, anyway)
[22:39:28] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: no offense taken
[22:39:40] <jmkasunich> theres lots of things I wouldn't trust to software of any kind
[22:40:20] <alex_joni> it would suck to have a big red mushroom on the car
[22:40:28] <alex_joni> for situations when it goes berzerk
[22:40:34] <SWPadnos> hey jmk - did you get the email about VMWare 6.0 beta?
[22:41:03] <SWPadnos> two features you'll like: 1) Automation APIs (VIX API 2.0) - You can write scripts and programs to automate VM testing.
[22:41:03] <cradek> you guys think there's no software in your car? ha.
[22:41:06] <jmkasunich> no
[22:41:10] <SWPadnos> 2) Headless mode - You can run VMs in the background without the Workstation UI
[22:41:13] <alex_joni> cradek: I know there is
[22:41:26] <alex_joni> cradek: LOTS of it
[22:41:37] <jmkasunich> cradek: there is no software between my foot and the brake pedal, and between my hands and the front tires
[22:41:42] <jmkasunich> thats what counts!
[22:41:45] <cradek> with pid loops everywhere :-)
[22:41:47] <SWPadnos> unless you're in a BMW 750
[22:41:57] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that might not always be true
[22:42:02] <cradek> jmkasunich: ABS (a software system) can disable your brakes.
[22:42:11] <alex_joni> ESP too
[22:42:12] <jmkasunich> true
[22:42:27] <cradek> also I have ESP and it brakes wheels by itself
[22:42:34] <jmkasunich> well at least I can still steer myself
[22:42:39] <SWPadnos> the BMW 7 series is drive-by-wire, similar to a Boeing 777
[22:42:44] <jmkasunich> no thanks
[22:42:45] <cradek> they haven't messed with the steering quite yet.
[22:42:46] <SWPadnos> not in the BMW
[22:43:07] <jmkasunich> you won't be catching me driving a BMW anyway
[22:43:07] <SWPadnos> they made it entirely drive-by-wire, so they could seal off the cabin from noise ...
[22:43:10] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:43:13] <jmkasunich> not my class of vehicle
[22:43:17] <SWPadnos> you'd be driving too fast ;)
[22:43:29] <SWPadnos> yeah, I don't think they make a pickup ;)
[22:46:16] <SWPadnos> ok, now we're really leaving. back in a while
[22:55:25] <jmkasunich> another magic smoke picture: <A HREF="/pics/db-unit-transistor.jpg"><IMG SRC="/pics/db-unit-transistor-thumb.jpg" HEIGHT="200" WIDTH="200"></A>
[22:55:27] <jmkasunich> oops
[22:55:35] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/db-unit.html
[22:57:38] <alex_joni> I think that's a bit more than just the magic smoke
[22:58:22] <jmkasunich> magic dust and chunks too?
[22:58:23] <cradek> yeah the escaping magic smoke took a few parts along with it
[22:58:59] <alex_joni> magic smoke and magic smoke container
[22:59:48] <jmkasunich> I'm hoping the main power transistor is OK
[22:59:56] <jmkasunich> I'm almost sure the resistors are OK
[23:00:49] <cradek> 'three-legged fuses'
[23:04:16] <jmkasunich> yay, the transistor is OK
[23:04:31] <jmkasunich> 13mA base current, gives 5A collector current
[23:05:02] <cradek> that's a very high gain
[23:05:14] <alex_joni> darlington?
[23:05:19] <cradek> must be
[23:05:20] <jmkasunich> yeah
[23:06:09] <jmkasunich> looking for ratings now
[23:08:19] <jmkasunich> 30A, 600V
[23:08:41] <jmkasunich> hFE 75/100 minimum
[23:08:41] <alex_joni> nice
[23:09:02] <alex_joni> 600V should be great for the spindle
[23:09:12] <jmkasunich> javascript:openreq('http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/MitsubishiElectricCorporation/mXvrury.pdf')
[23:09:18] <jmkasunich> bah
[23:09:39] <jmkasunich> datasheetcatalog.com doesn't want people passing URLs I see
[23:09:43] <alex_joni> http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/MitsubishiElectricCorporation/mXvrury.pdf
[23:10:14] <alex_joni> nice one
[23:10:58] <jmkasunich> there is a diode of about the same rating\
[23:11:22] <alex_joni> hmm.. is it only half a year since dapper came out?
[23:11:28] <jepler> 6.06
[23:11:31] <alex_joni> feels like _way_ longer
[23:11:40] <alex_joni> jepler: yeah, I know :)
[23:12:06] <jmkasunich> two resistors of about 100 ohms each, a couple hundred watts each
[23:12:47] <jmkasunich> a 5K resistor probably 50W or so
[23:12:49] <alex_joni> big :)
[23:12:59] <alex_joni> we have 15 ohms on our servos I think
[23:13:07] <jmkasunich> and the PC board with the smoked SCR and a few other paryts
[23:13:08] <jmkasunich> parts
[23:13:23] <alex_joni> that's one 15 ohm resistor for 6 axes
[23:13:35] <jmkasunich> ?
[23:13:39] <jmkasunich> oh
[23:13:53] <jmkasunich> what voltage?
[23:13:55] <alex_joni> it's connected to the PS
[23:14:00] <alex_joni> 300V on the older ones
[23:14:07] <jmkasunich> this is probably designed to trip at about 375V
[23:14:10] <alex_joni> DC though
[23:14:17] <jmkasunich> same here
[23:14:19] <alex_joni> ok
[23:14:21] <jmkasunich> (dc bus)
[23:14:23] <alex_joni> right
[23:14:31] <alex_joni> 200V DC bus for internal axes (smaller)
[23:14:37] <alex_joni> 300V DC bus for external
[23:14:46] <jmkasunich> at 375V, each resistor will dissipate 1400 watts
[23:14:55] <alex_joni> external meaning positioners and manipulators
[23:15:03] <jmkasunich> for a while anyways...
[23:15:12] <jmkasunich> thats why they have thermal switches attached
[23:15:13] <alex_joni> heh.. yeah.. don't touch it :D
[23:15:19] <skunkworks> 15 ohm in series with the servos?
[23:15:29] <alex_joni> skunkworks: no, this is connected to the PSU
[23:15:39] <alex_joni> when there's an overvoltage it gets shorted through there
[23:15:46] <alex_joni> or something like that :D
[23:16:04] <alex_joni> the servos are about 4-5 ohm / winding .. so 15 ohm would be HUGE
[23:16:07] <skunkworks> oh ok - i think I see
[23:16:15] <skunkworks> That is what I was wondering :)
[23:16:34] <alex_joni> but when you're breaking the motor will generate electricity
[23:16:40] <alex_joni> which goes back in the drive
[23:16:48] <alex_joni> and from there back into the PSU bus
[23:16:57] <alex_joni> increasing the voltage
[23:17:06] <alex_joni> at one point the drives will pop
[23:33:59] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:34:38] <alex_joni> night samco
[23:34:45] <skunkworks> night alex
[23:35:23] <jmkasunich> night alex
[23:39:04] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: what is your website again?
[23:39:47] <skunkworks> (blog)
[23:40:23] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich.dyndys.org
[23:40:40] <skunkworks> thanks
[23:40:41] <jmkasunich> there is a link from there to the actual blog url which is longer than I want to type
[23:40:53] <skunkworks> I can handle that :)
[23:42:17] <skunkworks> um - I get a web hosting company www or http://
[23:42:46] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org
[23:42:59] <jmkasunich> I can't spell dns
[23:43:00] <jmkasunich> sorry
[23:43:27] <skunkworks> thanks - again
[23:57:51] <jmkasunich> was it cradek who said my electrical box was plenty big?
[23:58:16] <jmkasunich> gecko power supply9 x 6 x 5
[23:58:32] <jmkasunich> gecko heatsink 9 x 7 x 1.5
[23:58:44] <jmkasunich> mobo 9 x 12
[23:58:57] <jmkasunich> power supply 6 x 6 x 3
[23:59:10] <jmkasunich> hard disk 6 x 4 x 1
[23:59:35] <jmkasunich> spindle drive 10 x 13 x 3 (without fans)