#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-12-12

[01:29:31] <jepler> the reason for the repeated messages like this one: dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: format of libnml.so not recognized
[01:29:47] <jepler> is that "libnml.so" doesn't have a version number, like libc.so.6 does
[01:30:09] <jepler> apparently the fix for this is to use libtool *gag*
[01:30:50] <cradek> that can't be the only fix...?
[01:31:49] <jepler> no, it has to match one of two perl REs, either with something after the .so (libfoo.so.XXX) or a dash (libfoo-XXX.so). though I guess it can be any characters, not just digits
[01:31:53] <jepler> (\S)
[01:31:58] <jepler> if (m,^\s*NEEDED\s+((\S+)\.so\.(\S+))$,) {
[01:32:03] <jepler> } elsif (m,^\s*NEEDED\s+((\S+)-(\S+)\.so)$,) {
[01:32:07] <jepler> } else {
[01:32:07] <jepler> m,^\s*NEEDED\s+(\S+)$,;
[01:32:07] <jepler> &warn("format of $1 not recognized");
[01:33:14] <jepler> if we don't fix it, then some other package that links stuff with libhal.so won't automatically find the dependency on the emc package
[02:13:06] <SWPadnos> jmk-laptop, you may not have noticed, but Pete W offered us the 25 piece prices for the group buy
[02:13:45] <SWPadnos> and I don't think we need to get qty. 5 of every line item to qualify, though I didn't specifically ask
[02:18:51] <jmk-laptop> I missed that part
[02:19:41] <SWPadnos> I only mentioned it in here, not on the #emc channel
[02:20:16] <jmk-laptop> could you do me a favor? go to webmail.att.net, and tell me if it loads for you
[02:20:24] <SWPadnos> Pete said he'd extend the offer to developers, and "wouldn't worry about it" if some others got the deal as well
[02:20:29] <jmk-laptop> (should bring up a user/password login screen)
[02:20:39] <jmk-laptop> nice
[02:20:40] <SWPadnos> yes it does
[02:21:05] <SWPadnos> I sent an email only to the list of people with CVS commit access, plus a few others (like Steve S, Matt S, Dave E ...)
[02:21:07] <jmk-laptop> hmm, must be something funky about the hotel internet or this laptop then
[02:21:20] <jmk-laptop> (but I've used both for that site before)
[02:21:25] <SWPadnos> at least you can use irc ...
[02:21:33] <jmk-laptop> yeah, and I can do other web stuff
[02:21:38] <SWPadnos> I couldn't get to IRC from the last hotel I stayed in
[02:22:00] <SWPadnos> so you probably can't edit that page with the Mesa info then, huh?
[02:22:24] <jmk-laptop> I should be able to do that - ssh into the home box
[02:22:31] <jmk-laptop> what I can't do is read my mail
[02:22:35] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:23:08] <SWPadnos> can you add/replace the pricing with the qty. 25 numbers? I can paste them here pretty easily
[02:23:28] <jmk-laptop> stand by
[02:24:17] <SWPadnos> I wonder if JonE will appreciate getting the offer :)
[02:25:56] <jmk-laptop> doubt it
[02:26:04] <jmk-laptop> ok, I have an editor open
[02:26:36] <SWPadnos> 5i20 $144
[02:26:37] <SWPadnos> 7i30-4 $65
[02:26:39] <SWPadnos> 7i31 $25
[02:26:41] <SWPadnos> 7i32 $65
[02:26:43] <SWPadnos> 7i33 $50
[02:26:45] <SWPadnos> 7i34 $25
[02:26:45] <SWPadnos> 7i37 $50
[02:26:47] <SWPadnos> 7i39-HV $106
[02:26:49] <SWPadnos> 7i39-LV $106
[02:27:48] <jmk-laptop> done
[02:27:53] <SWPadnos> cool. thanks
[02:27:53] <jmk-laptop> any new people or items?
[02:28:07] <SWPadnos> none that I know of. there may be some in your inbox though :)
[02:28:11] <jmk-laptop> right
[02:28:20] <SWPadnos> actually, skunkworks mentioned that his father may be interested
[02:28:49] <jmk-laptop> I wonder how dog-slow ssh -x would be if I tried to use firefox on the home box to read webmail
[02:28:57] <jmk-laptop> thats just too twisted
[02:29:08] <SWPadnos> do you think lynx might work at all?
[02:29:23] <jmk-laptop> probably not very well
[02:29:29] <SWPadnos> hmmm - probably not. it's still HTTP
[02:30:04] <SWPadnos> you could try calling hotel internet support - they're relatively helpful most of the time
[02:30:10] <SWPadnos> hmmm - actually, is this FireFox?
[02:30:31] <jmk-laptop> yeah, I'm running firefox on the laptop
[02:30:34] <SWPadnos> try clearing the cache, then reload the page
[02:31:18] <jmk-laptop> nope
[02:31:21] <jepler> is the chip on the mesa the -5 or the -6 speed grade?
[02:31:21] <SWPadnos> bummer
[02:31:27] <SWPadnos> -5
[02:31:44] <jmk-laptop> I get the little spinning "busy"indicator for only a second or so, then it stops, and nothing
[02:31:46] <SWPadnos> at least, that's what I have on mine - Mesa doesn't specify
[02:32:34] <jmk-laptop> since it loaded for you, I know the site is up
[02:32:45] <SWPadnos> but general browsing works OK for other sites?
[02:32:55] <jmk-laptop> sure
[02:33:26] <SWPadnos> you're using DHCP there, right?
[02:33:45] <jmk-laptop> must be - it "just works"
[02:34:03] <SWPadnos> ok. check your nameserver settings
[02:34:10] <jmk-laptop> I can hit google, my own site, just hit unpythonic...
[02:34:20] <jmk-laptop> no error message, thats what annoys me
[02:34:58] <SWPadnos> ok. one thing they do to make sure you can't browse past your paid time is to control when you get correct IP addresses and when you don't
[02:35:12] <SWPadnos> what do you get for nslookup webmail.att.net ?
[02:35:37] <jmk-laptop> Name: webmail.att.net
[02:35:37] <jmk-laptop> Address:
[02:35:43] <jmk-laptop> I can ping it just fine
[02:36:01] <SWPadnos> ok. one sec
[02:36:12] <SWPadnos> and webauth.att.net?
[02:36:37] <jmk-laptop> Name: webauth.att.net
[02:36:37] <jmk-laptop> Address:
[02:37:31] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I get the same, so that's no help
[02:37:51] <SWPadnos> can you ping or browse to webauth.att.net?
[02:38:50] <jmk-laptop> browsing didn't seem to work (just sat there with the busy indicator going)
[02:38:55] <jmk-laptop> lemme try the ping
[02:39:00] <SWPadnos> try https:
[02:39:11] <jmk-laptop> pings just fine
[02:39:51] <jmk-laptop> "server has encountered an internal error blah blah"
[02:39:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:40:08] <SWPadnos> https://webauth.att.net/auth/webmail/login
[02:41:14] <jmk-laptop> that got me the login screen ;-)\
[02:41:31] <jmk-laptop> when I logged in, it went back to the old behavior :-(
[02:41:34] <SWPadnos> bummer
[02:42:12] <SWPadnos> there may be some ports you need the ISP folks to open. a short(ish) phone call will either fix it or save you the trouble of trying for much longer :)
[02:43:17] <jmk-laptop> what I find strange (and makes me think the problem is at att) is that I've accessed that site from this hotel with this laptop before
[02:43:22] <jmk-laptop> most recently, 2 weeks ago
[02:43:28] <SWPadnos> that is odd
[02:43:53] <SWPadnos> this isn't the place in Ontario is it?
[02:43:58] <jmk-laptop> no, wisconsin
[02:44:13] <SWPadnos> ok (Canadians could be terrorists, you know)
[02:44:44] <jmk-laptop> odd - I'm connected to a freenode server in .de
[02:45:14] <SWPadnos> it is "world" net, after all
[02:45:24] <jmk-laptop> yeah
[02:45:52] <jmk-laptop> how does one convert ip to name? nslookup <ip>?
[02:46:09] <jepler> yes that should work
[02:46:20] <SWPadnos> do you need a . at the end?
[02:46:25] <SWPadnos> or is that only in the DNS records?
[02:46:47] <jmk-laptop> john@labrats:~$ nslookup
[02:46:47] <jmk-laptop> Server:
[02:46:47] <jmk-laptop> Address:
[02:46:47] <jmk-laptop> ** server can't find SERVFAIL
[02:47:08] <jmk-laptop> is the address freenode things I'm using
[02:47:13] <jmk-laptop> (/whois jmk-laptop)
[02:47:44] <SWPadnos> call up support and tell them you can't connect to your VPN, and you need an address that's visible on the internet :)
[02:48:26] <jepler> ** server can't find SERVFAIL
[02:48:30] <jepler> I get SERVFAIL for that too
[02:48:59] <jepler> but with 'whois' I can find it's in a block of addresses belonging to AT&T
[02:49:38] <jmk-laptop> this is the hotel isp: http://www.sboca.com/
[02:49:50] <jmk-laptop> I should call them
[02:49:57] <jmk-laptop> instead of dicking around
[02:50:06] <SWPadnos> yeah - that is funny that it's in an WTT block for Milwaukee, but you can't connect to ATT worldnet ...
[02:50:11] <SWPadnos> err - ATT
[02:51:33] <jmk-laptop> installing lynx just for grins
[02:51:47] <jmk-laptop> then I'll try the phone
[02:52:00] <SWPadnos> heh - you won't be grinning when you run it :)
[02:53:06] <jmk-laptop> actually, its a debugging tool
[02:53:22] <jmk-laptop> it showed me this (which firefox decided was too much for my tender eyes):\
[02:53:27] <jmk-laptop> REFRESH(0 sec): http://webmail.att.net/wmc/v/wmgoto
[02:54:05] <SWPadnos> strange - you'd think that would be a redirect if they want a 0-second refresh
[02:54:06] <jmk-laptop> I knew firefox had to be getting _something_, otherwise the busy wheel wouldn't stop right away
[02:54:26] <SWPadnos> that link brings me to the login page
[02:54:51] <SWPadnos> at the https address I pasted earlier
[02:55:03] <jmk-laptop> it brought me to my mail!!
[02:55:09] <SWPadnos> cool
[02:55:20] <jmk-laptop> (remember, I found the login page earlier, and gave my password)
[02:55:22] <SWPadnos> you're logged in, I guess
[02:55:24] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:55:35] <jmk-laptop> now, will it work when I click on a message to read it...
[02:55:51] <SWPadnos> drag the link onto lynx
[02:55:54] <jmk-laptop> yes
[02:57:06] <jmk-laptop> yeah, I'm in, with apparently full functionality
[02:57:18] <SWPadnos> great
[02:57:20] <SWPadnos> !
[02:57:30] <jmk-laptop> could it be something as stupid as a genius at att substituting refresh for redirect?
[02:57:59] <SWPadnos> that or IE "works", and it isn't spec (?)
[02:58:14] <jmk-laptop> but I use foxfire all the time
[02:58:46] <jmk-laptop> who knows
[02:59:55] <jmk-laptop> * jmk-laptop reads 16 emails
[02:59:58] <SWPadnos> hmmm - it looks like 0 is legal, who knows if the syntax was perfect
[03:00:07] <SWPadnos> (3 from me)
[03:03:20] <jmk-laptop> wtf is with the message from nasir2ahmed?
[03:03:26] <jmk-laptop> isn't that the motenc guy?
[03:03:45] <SWPadnos> not the developer of the motenc
[03:03:57] <jmk-laptop> oh, right, that's abdul
[03:03:57] <SWPadnos> isn't that Aram Kasparov or something?
[03:04:02] <SWPadnos> right - abdul ;)
[03:04:07] <SWPadnos> rafiq
[03:04:16] <jmk-laptop> anyway, the nasir message as zero content
[03:04:27] <jmk-laptop> I can't even tell what he wants
[03:05:35] <SWPadnos> it looked like PID spindle control via a VFD, but my understanding is that (a) the VFD has some sort of PID and (b) the motor will run at sync speed until it overheats or melts
[03:05:50] <SWPadnos> (or the drive is smart enough to shut it off)
[03:10:17] <jmk-laptop> now you're talking about anders, I think
[03:10:24] <jmk-laptop> what he is asking seems quite reasonable
[03:10:57] <SWPadnos> oh, right. he had replied to one of the unintelligible posts, so it showed up threaded under there
[03:14:13] <SWPadnos> nasir's post only makes sense when combined with his earlier post, which explains that he has an accumulating error when his mill runs (which doesn't show up on the EMC display), among other things
[03:15:26] <jmk-laptop> oh
[03:15:44] <jmk-laptop> some of the replies to his post started to clue me in as well
[03:15:51] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:16:22] <jmk-laptop> well, I think I'm gonna crash - had a long day today, and another tomorrow
[03:16:32] <jmk-laptop> oh, one last amusing tidbit
[03:16:37] <SWPadnos> ya
[03:16:49] <jmk-laptop> the dyne we were using today has a torque transducer and display
[03:17:03] <jmk-laptop> (we weren't interested in that data, but it was staring me in the face)
[03:17:20] <jmk-laptop> it was in lb-in, but I converted to oz-in for fun
[03:17:34] <jmk-laptop> 640,000 oz-in at 1790 RPM
[03:17:42] <SWPadnos> ouch
[03:18:01] <jmk-laptop> serious twist
[03:18:17] <SWPadnos> yeah - try stopping *that* with a wrench ;)
[03:18:21] <jmk-laptop> the shafts are 4 or 5 inches in diameter
[03:18:43] <jmk-laptop> only 2 tons on the end of a 10" cresent wrench
[03:18:50] <SWPadnos> there's another interesting calculatiuon - force at the shaft radius ...
[03:19:09] <SWPadnos> 2" radius = 320000 lbs force
[03:19:16] <SWPadnos> err - oz
[03:19:17] <jmk-laptop> yeah, the force that is trying to shear the key in half
[03:19:23] <SWPadnos> right
[03:19:33] <jmk-laptop> key is about 1" square
[03:20:01] <SWPadnos> steel is pretty amazing material
[03:20:08] <jmk-laptop> a former co-worker used to have (20 yrs ago) a 1/2" key that was sheared almost in half
[03:20:24] <jmk-laptop> (this was a lengthwise shear, not across the 1/2" square cross section)
[03:20:34] <SWPadnos> I don't think I would want to have seen the accident that did that
[03:20:45] <SWPadnos> err - situation ;)
[03:20:46] <jmk-laptop> it was an aircraft generator test set
[03:21:05] <jmk-laptop> 300HP DC motor, driving a 12x or so step up gearbox
[03:21:26] <jmk-laptop> some malfunction of the DC drive made it run away (overspeed)
[03:21:38] <jmk-laptop> estop didn't stop it, so everybody ran away
[03:21:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:22:08] <SWPadnos> the only sane thing to do at that point, unless there's a handy cord you can unplug ...
[03:22:11] <jmk-laptop> eventually the armature started to come apart from centrifugal force, hit the inside of the motor, and the motor stopped very very quickly
[03:22:42] <SWPadnos> oooh - and you get loads of inertia on the 12x turbine
[03:22:43] <jmk-laptop> the gearbox stopped _almost_ as quickly (almost being the .3" or so that the key got offset by)
[03:23:37] <jmk-laptop> pieces of motor windings came out of the motor ventilation openings and pitted the concrete floor right where some people had been standing before the runaway
[03:24:29] <SWPadnos> wow - that is not a good situation
[03:24:33] <jmk-laptop> nope
[03:24:48] <jmk-laptop> thats the last time they ever used that supplier's DC drives
[03:24:59] <jmk-laptop> estop that doesn't is really really bad
[03:25:01] <SWPadnos> or estop circuitry
[03:25:04] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:25:41] <jmk-laptop> this was probably a late 60's or early 70's drive
[03:25:51] <jmk-laptop> I worked there 84 thru 91, and the story was old then
[03:26:18] <jmk-laptop> I think the drive was Westinghouse or something, they've been out of that business for years (decades?)
[03:26:56] <SWPadnos> huh - were high power switching devices (like tyhristors) around before transistors were popular?
[03:27:18] <jmk-laptop> dc drives have used thyristors just about forever
[03:27:23] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:27:25] <jmk-laptop> and all but the smallest still do
[03:27:57] <jmk-laptop> I have another "huge torque" story
[03:28:05] <SWPadnos> kewl
[03:28:09] <jmk-laptop> this one happened at the same company, while I was there
[03:28:17] <jmk-laptop> actually happened at a paper mill
[03:28:34] <jmk-laptop> 50HP or so DC drive and motor running some large inertia load on the paper machine
[03:28:52] <jmk-laptop> something (don't recall what) made lots of line notching on the power feed
[03:29:18] <jmk-laptop> the RC snubbers across the SCRs are sized to absorb the notching created by the drive, and a little more
[03:29:37] <jmk-laptop> but whatever this source was, it was more than the snubbers could take
[03:29:46] <jmk-laptop> the R in the RC got too hot, and unsoldered itself
[03:30:03] <jmk-laptop> the now unsnubbed SCRs false fired, shorting the motor armature
[03:30:13] <SWPadnos> oops
[03:30:21] <jmk-laptop> real industrial DC motors have much lower DR resistance than servos and small motors
[03:30:38] <jmk-laptop> the braking torque from the shorted armature broke the motor shaft right off
[03:30:51] <jmk-laptop> that size motor has a 1-1/2" or so shaft
[03:31:13] <SWPadnos> so a 6-ton roll of paper was just freewheeling after that?
[03:31:25] <jmk-laptop> something was freewheelingt
[03:31:44] <jmk-laptop> its unlikely that motor was running a reel (roll of paper)
[03:31:50] <jmk-laptop> probably just some roll in the machine
[03:32:02] <jmk-laptop> (large paper machines have 1000HP or more on the reel)
[03:32:24] <SWPadnos> ok - still, a 20-foot long, 1 foot diameter "typewriter platen" is big
[03:32:31] <jmk-laptop> yes
[03:32:58] <SWPadnos> heh - that reminds me of a photography story (also having to do with printing presses
[03:33:15] <SWPadnos> a friend of mine does (or did) most of the photography for Heidelberg-Harris
[03:33:49] <SWPadnos> so he brings out his nice medium-format camera and a bunch of strobes to light up this 200-foot long press
[03:34:16] <SWPadnos> of course, they want to shoot it while it's running, because it's very cool to see the print media going by in a blur
[03:34:32] <jmk-laptop> until the flash freezes it?
[03:34:40] <SWPadnos> however, there are these things calles "web break sensors", which are optical sensors across the paper
[03:34:42] <SWPadnos> exactly
[03:34:56] <SWPadnos> poof! screeeeeechhhhhh!
[03:34:59] <jmk-laptop> oh, he false tripped all the web break detectors?
[03:35:02] <jmk-laptop> lol
[03:35:02] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:35:25] <jmk-laptop> they must have been very happy with him
[03:35:30] <SWPadnos> it's still blurry, even with a flash (unless you use an exceedingly high speed flash)
[03:35:33] <SWPadnos> oh yes, very
[03:36:03] <SWPadnos> as they said, it's like painting on toilet paper with a squirt gun, at 130 miles per hour ;)
[03:36:18] <jmk-laptop> I heard a story, but not sure its true (I wasn't there, and I don't think the person I heard it from was either)
[03:36:33] <jmk-laptop> company is introducing a brand new high power AC drive
[03:36:45] <jmk-laptop> so large that they are paralleling multiple large IGBTs
[03:37:00] <jmk-laptop> and using fiber optics to send the gate signals around to the multiple drivers
[03:37:35] <jmk-laptop> press photographers have flash cameras, drive bays are open, drive is energized, and early fibers had less than perfectly opaque jackets
[03:38:02] <SWPadnos> bzzzzt!
[03:38:04] <jmk-laptop> bang
[03:38:17] <jmk-laptop> IGBTs never bzzt, they always bang
[03:38:21] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:38:46] <jmk-laptop> its those pesky kilojoule cap banks that are the problem...
[03:38:57] <SWPadnos> been there, seen those :)
[03:39:29] <jmk-laptop> I have a web break detector story too - this ones true, I was there and actually spotted the clue that let them solve the problem
[03:39:31] <SWPadnos> and the 5-phase staggered thyristor drive for large DC supplies, controlled by a DSP (Motorola 56800E, to be exact ;) )
[03:40:20] <jmk-laptop> large paper machine - starting up, need to make a roll of paper by december 31 in order to write off the capital costs against a certain fiscal year
[03:40:30] <jmk-laptop> its something like 12/28
[03:40:36] <jmk-laptop> just a little pressure
[03:41:18] <jmk-laptop> the machine threads just fine (threading is done at maybe a hundred feet per minute, maybe even less - run speed is 3000 fpm)
[03:41:36] <jmk-laptop> but as soon as they try to transition from thread to run and begin to accel, the web breaks
[03:42:12] <jmk-laptop> I was there as the drive guy, to look into specific drive issues - for this issue I'm just trying to stay out of the way of the systems guys
[03:42:33] <jmk-laptop> so I was at another PC, that was running a logging program
[03:43:00] <jmk-laptop> first I noticed that right at the moment of the web break there was a rumble/thud noise
[03:43:42] <jmk-laptop> when I investigated that with the logger, I saw that half the motors on the machine had a largish torque pulse at the moment of the break
[03:44:03] <jmk-laptop> the torque was trying to accel the machine
[03:44:23] <jmk-laptop> when I asked the systems guys what it was, they said "eureka!"
[03:44:47] <SWPadnos> ?
[03:45:21] <jmk-laptop> seems the machine was programmed such that if it detected a web break anywhere in the dry end (where the paper is going from soggy to dry), it would accel the entire dry end, to intentionally break the paper at the transition from the wet end to the dry end
[03:45:39] <jmk-laptop> the stuff leaving the wet end can easily be repulped and recycled automatically
[03:46:00] <SWPadnos> ah right
[03:46:06] <jmk-laptop> without even stopping the wet end - just rethread the dry end and continue
[03:46:17] <jmk-laptop> anyway, that logic is disabled in thread mode, and enabled in run mode
[03:46:34] <jmk-laptop> one of the middle-of-the-dry-end web break detectors was misaligned and always reporting a break
[03:47:10] <jmk-laptop> switch to run more, it says "you gotta break" where the wasn;t one, the machine accels (thud/rumble) and yep, now you gotta break
[03:47:11] <skunkworks> isn't there a big indicator that should show that?
[03:47:24] <jmk-laptop> something wasn't configured right I guess
[03:47:30] <jmk-laptop> remember, startup
[03:47:33] <skunkworks> ah
[03:47:51] <SWPadnos> "make it do something before new years" ...
[03:47:59] <jmk-laptop> anyway, once they realized it was the intentional break function kicking in, they fixed it in a matter of 20 mins
[03:48:09] <jmk-laptop> disabled that break detector or something
[03:48:26] <SWPadnos> ahhh - LabView
[03:48:27] <SWPadnos> oops
[03:49:24] <jmk-laptop> I (and just about everyone who was there that week) got a "first roll" teeshirt
[03:49:48] <SWPadnos> not too common a commodity, I imagine
[03:49:48] <jmk-laptop> startup of a 3000 ton per day paper machine is a really big deal
[03:50:53] <jmk-laptop> I really don't know how the systems people get a project like that going
[03:51:05] <SWPadnos> "top down design"
[03:51:06] <jmk-laptop> the number of details is just mind boggling
[03:51:16] <SWPadnos> they think about what they want and leave the rest to underlings ;)
[03:51:41] <jmk-laptop> not entirely
[03:51:52] <jmk-laptop> everyone in a project like that has to juggle many different levels
[03:52:30] <jmk-laptop> if there are (arbitrary number) 15 levels of abstraction, from top level to individual wires, etc
[03:52:55] <jmk-laptop> just about everyone involved needs to handle from 5 to 10
[03:53:08] <jmk-laptop> and some people have to be able to handle 13 or 14 of the 15
[03:53:24] <SWPadnos> yeah - a few people really have to know a lot at most every level, then the rest can be more specialize
[03:53:27] <SWPadnos> d
[03:54:13] <jmk-laptop> one of the fiascos on that job
[03:54:30] <jmk-laptop> several 200HP motors were shipped to the jobsite a few months before they were to be installed
[03:55:06] <jmk-laptop> each motor has overtemp switches embedded in the windings (klixon type things, normally closed, get to hot, they open to trigger an alarm)
[03:55:39] <jmk-laptop> sometimes motors also have heaters built in, to prevent condensation while idle in a damp environment
[03:55:51] <jmk-laptop> these didn't, but someone thought they did
[03:56:01] <SWPadnos> uh-oh
[03:56:06] <jmk-laptop> and thought they should do something to prevent condensation while the motors were stored
[03:56:08] <SWPadnos> "lookit all the nice heater wires"
[03:56:15] <jmk-laptop> so they hooked 480V to the thermostat leads
[03:56:21] <jmk-laptop> the NC thermostat leads
[03:56:33] <SWPadnos> I'm sure they opened rather quickly ;)
[03:56:36] <jmk-laptop> that _was_ a bzzzt
[03:56:50] <jmk-laptop> they did, but the arcing damaged the windings
[03:57:16] <jmk-laptop> at least a half dozen 200HP motors off to the rewind shop, before they were ever used
[03:57:33] <SWPadnos> ouch
[03:58:23] <jmk-laptop> the damage wasn't even detected until the motors were connected to the drives and they tried to run them
[03:58:31] <jmk-laptop> thats the first reason I was there
[03:58:56] <SWPadnos> oh man. how long does a re-wind take?
[03:59:04] <jmk-laptop> "your damn drive keeps giving us nuisance instaneous overcurrent trips, get down here and fix it"
[03:59:23] <jmk-laptop> how long? how much money you got, and how bad do you need it?
[03:59:30] <jmk-laptop> rush job, maybe a week
[03:59:32] <SWPadnos> "have you put a multimeter on the thermistor leads?" ;)
[03:59:38] <SWPadnos> (your response)
[03:59:52] <jmk-laptop> no, I didn't know anything about the thermostat leads
[04:00:06] <jmk-laptop> when I got there and put a scope on it, the IOC trips were real
[04:00:25] <jmk-laptop> motor would run for a couple minutes, then all of a sudden the current would shoot up
[04:00:37] <jmk-laptop> they didn't believe me that it was in the motor
[04:00:41] <SWPadnos> ah right - the melted insulation
[04:00:45] <jmk-laptop> so we got a surge tester, and tested the windings....
[04:00:54] <jmk-laptop> then they said "oh shit"
[04:01:02] <jmk-laptop> and got on the phone to the rewind shop
[04:01:42] <jmk-laptop> they had _some_ spare motors (a paper machine has spare everything - downtime is to much $$)
[04:02:10] <jmk-laptop> a team of riggers can swap out and realign a 200HP motor (close to a ton) in less than one shift when they need to
[04:02:33] <SWPadnos> that's good time
[04:03:29] <jmk-laptop> they were motivated
[04:03:33] <jmk-laptop> they wanted those teeshirts ;-)
[04:03:43] <SWPadnos> woohoo! :)
[04:04:01] <jmk-laptop> and probably the startup bonus that went along with them
[04:04:11] <SWPadnos> oh, well that helps too
[04:06:19] <jmk-laptop> this is the place:
[04:06:20] <jmk-laptop> http://www.internationalpaper.com/Packaging/Packaging%20Stand%20Alone%20Pages/Containerboard/Mansfield_Mill.html
[04:06:45] <SWPadnos> ah - good old IP - the ones who are test-burning tires at their plant across the lake ...
[04:06:53] <jmk-laptop> the 2nd pic on that page is in the machine room
[04:07:03] <jmk-laptop> it is every bit as long as it looks
[04:07:14] <jmk-laptop> in fact, that is probably only 2/3 of the length of the room
[04:07:16] <SWPadnos> I believe it
[04:07:41] <jmk-laptop> the drive room was something like 400 feet long
[04:07:53] <jmk-laptop> the machine room was about twice that, maybe more
[04:08:12] <SWPadnos> that's a lotta stuff. and I bet it smells bad too
[04:08:21] <jmk-laptop> (drive room is adjacent to the machine room, running parallel, so wiring to the motors isn't too long
[04:08:31] <jmk-laptop> no smell problem that I noticed
[04:08:47] <SWPadnos> strange. the IP plant in Ticonderoga NY causes a stench for miles
[04:08:58] <SWPadnos> (not from the tire burning wither)
[04:09:01] <SWPadnos> either
[04:09:15] <jmk-laptop> differnet plants do different stuff
[04:09:25] <SWPadnos> true
[04:09:31] <jmk-laptop> brown paper doesn't use the nasty bleaching chemicals that white paper does
[04:09:50] <jmk-laptop> I was in a pulp mill (high grade white stuff) in FL...
[04:09:57] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: where you saying if we weren't in a rush (not get what they have on hand) - we could order dirctly from mesa and get the deal? or do they still have to go through you?
[04:10:17] <SWPadnos> I don't know yet - I've asked Peter to let me know how they'd like to handle it
[04:10:28] <jmk-laptop> they give you a safety lecture, and a mini-respirator with 5 mins of air to help you exit the building in an emergency
[04:10:46] <jmk-laptop> then you walk out of the office/guardhouse and into the plant...
[04:10:58] <SWPadnos> skunkworks, I said we could prioritize the deliveries, so if you don't need something rght away, that's good information for me to have
[04:11:04] <jmk-laptop> across the rail tracks where there are three cars sitting
[04:11:55] <SWPadnos> heh - 5 mintes - sounds like a lot of time, unless you don't know where you're going, and there's a giant cloud of caustic smoke blocking your vision
[04:12:10] <jmk-laptop> one with 56000 gallons of anhydrous ammonia, one with tons and tons of liquid chlorine, and one with a massive quantity of some other extremely agressive chemical that escapes me at the moment
[04:12:33] <SWPadnos> might as well be Lye
[04:12:42] <jmk-laptop> might have been
[04:12:50] <jmk-laptop> (the 3rd chemical that is)
[04:12:55] <SWPadnos> righ
[04:12:57] <SWPadnos> t
[04:13:49] <jmk-laptop> that place was a massive contrast to IP
[04:13:58] <jmk-laptop> at IP, everything was new and shiny and top of the line
[04:14:20] <jmk-laptop> the web was 30 feet wide, ran at 3000 fpm, everything automated
[04:14:40] <jmk-laptop> at the pulp plant, the web was 8 feet wide, ran a few hundred fpm
[04:15:48] <jmk-laptop> and roll changes involved a strip of double sided tape the length of the empty core, getting the core spinning, then a guy literally jammed his hands thru the web to break it off the old (full) roll and frantically threw it at the new core to get it to stick
[04:16:11] <SWPadnos> heh - that was in Mexico?
[04:16:15] <jmk-laptop> I watched a half-dozen roll changes, and all I could do was shake my head
[04:16:21] <jmk-laptop> no, florida
[04:16:21] <SWPadnos> I think you've mentioned that plant before
[04:16:23] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:16:58] <jmk-laptop> funny, the only time I was ever in mexico was for a very very state of the art disposable diaper factory
[04:17:05] <SWPadnos> mexico may have been the bakery with four all over the motors, drives, controls ... well, everything ;)
[04:17:13] <SWPadnos> ah - ok
[04:17:31] <jmk-laptop> 10 diapers per second, untouched by human hands
[04:17:43] <jmk-laptop> Huggies actually ;-)
[04:17:45] <SWPadnos> well, that's good ;)
[04:18:03] <SWPadnos> though "untouched by human butts" is more important ;)
[04:18:10] <jmk-laptop> the thing I saw there that was neat was the way they cut the leg holds
[04:18:35] <jmk-laptop> some pretty big servomotors (AC), mounted with shafts vertical above the line
[04:18:49] <jmk-laptop> on the bottom of each motor, an arm about 4" long with a nozzle on the end
[04:19:00] <jmk-laptop> if you just ran the motor you'd get an 8"circle
[04:19:28] <jmk-laptop> on the other end of the motor shaft, a steel tube, maybe 1/4" OD, and about 8 feet long going straight up
[04:19:37] <jmk-laptop> top end rigidly clamped
[04:19:43] <jmk-laptop> the tube was a torsion spring
[04:19:48] <jmk-laptop> motor rotor was the mass
[04:19:59] <jmk-laptop> resonant at 10 legholes per second
[04:20:00] <SWPadnos> cool - so you get a windshield-wiper action for the cutter
[04:20:04] <jmk-laptop> yep
[04:20:28] <jmk-laptop> and the high pressure water goes thru the tube, no high pressure moving (leaky) couplings
[04:20:58] <SWPadnos> I imagine the tube would wear out from time to time
[04:21:05] <jmk-laptop> maybe
[04:21:27] <jmk-laptop> or it was long enough and thin enough that it ran below the fatigue limit
[04:21:37] <SWPadnos> though I suppose if you never get it to the deformation point, it may not get stressed enoug
[04:21:39] <SWPadnos> h
[04:21:43] <SWPadnos> right
[04:21:48] <jmk-laptop> I think the arc of motion was at most 90 degrees
[04:22:00] <SWPadnos> fatigue - I knew there was a word I wasn't remembering ;)
[04:23:12] <jmk-laptop> hmm... an hour ago I was going to quite
[04:23:14] <jmk-laptop> quit
[04:23:19] <SWPadnos> indeed
[04:23:27] <jmk-laptop> instead I've been telling stories
[04:23:37] <SWPadnos> I think I should concentrate on other things, like washing laundry so I can pack for my trip tomorrow ;)
[04:23:51] <jmk-laptop> that was me this weekend
[04:23:52] <SWPadnos> at least it's fun
[04:23:58] <jmk-laptop> go - wash - pack - sleep
[04:24:01] <SWPadnos> and if you're not tired, well then you might as well have some fun
[04:24:05] <jmk-laptop> truew
[04:24:10] <jmk-laptop> true even
[04:24:20] <SWPadnos> will do. when are you back home?
[04:24:24] <jmk-laptop> except I am tired, and should be sleeping
[04:24:33] <jmk-laptop> wednesday night if all goes to plan
[04:24:34] <SWPadnos> oh - right, you got up early
[04:24:58] <SWPadnos> ok. I'll see about getting any new names to you by then, or maybe Thursday morning your time
[04:25:04] <jmk-laptop> ok
[04:25:22] <jmk-laptop> wednesday evening I'll probably be busy anyway
[04:25:27] <jmk-laptop> thursday is fine
[04:25:29] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:25:28] <jmk-laptop> goodnight
[04:25:46] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure what my internet access will be like until I get to the hotel on Friday
[04:25:50] <SWPadnos> good night.
[04:25:59] <jmk-laptop> Friday works too...
[04:26:12] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:26:45] <SWPadnos> skunkworks, I should be leaving - any other questions about the Mesa thing?
[04:29:13] <skunkworks> nope - thanks
[04:30:28] <SWPadnos> ok -cool
[04:30:33] <SWPadnos> see you
[04:33:35] <jtr> SWPadnos: I am not in a rush either. I'll send a check.
[04:34:17] <SWPadnos> I still need to see how they want to handle payment, so I don't know how we need to go about the order yet
[04:35:33] <jtr> Ok. just don't want to be late for the party.
[04:36:19] <jtr> goodnight.
[04:38:34] <SWPadnos> good night
[21:25:41] <ve7it> ve7it is now known as LawrenceG