#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-10-27

[00:50:59] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[01:09:14] <cradek> hey
[01:34:24] <jmkasunich> hey
[01:34:33] <jmkasunich> (laggy connection ;-)
[01:35:04] <cradek> carrier pigeon?
[01:35:07] <jmkasunich> I really need to figure out a better way to manage computer upgrades
[01:35:17] <jmkasunich> I was just digging thru my old home directory
[01:35:28] <jmkasunich> which contained a copy of an even older home directory
[01:36:11] <cradek> as I see it, there are two options: keep your home directory forever, or back up the old ones after copying off what you immediately need, and forget about them until you want something
[01:36:24] <jmkasunich> somehow I wound up with my latest install on a 6G drive, while the 80G drive containing my previous install is usually not even mounted
[01:36:38] <cradek> I do the same thing with paper files - if they're old, I put them in a box and stash it away forever, confident that I can dig through them if I really need to.
[01:37:16] <jmkasunich> yeah, thats a reasonable solution
[01:37:29] <jmkasunich> my main mess is because the current install is on a tiny disk
[01:37:43] <cradek> it's pretty easy to move an existing install to a new disk...
[01:37:45] <jmkasunich> I think that was my "I think I'll try this ubuntu thing and see if I like it" install
[01:38:16] <jmkasunich> does the new disk need to be blank? or can I preserve some of the data on it?
[01:38:38] <cradek> with the strategy I have in mind, it should be newly formatted
[01:38:45] <jmkasunich> hmm
[01:39:07] <jmkasunich> problem is, the total size of the data I want to preserve is greater than the size of the 6G drive
[01:39:12] <jmkasunich> so I can't wipe the whole 80G one
[01:39:28] <cradek> tell me what you want to do, maybe I can suggest something
[01:39:35] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:39:53] <jmkasunich> I have my current breezy install, on a 6G disk
[01:40:07] <jmkasunich> 2 partitions, 6G / and 300M swap
[01:40:20] <jmkasunich> the other disk is partitioned out the ying-yang
[01:40:36] <jmkasunich> I think it had /boot, /tmp, /var, /home, and /
[01:40:39] <jmkasunich> or something like that
[01:40:54] <jmkasunich> all the stuff I want to preserve is in /home on the old disk
[01:41:09] <jmkasunich> could I wipe (and maybe consolidate) the other partitions?
[01:41:29] <cradek> sure, especially if home is at the beginning or end
[01:41:30] <jmkasunich> /home (old) is 40G
[01:41:40] <jmkasunich> its at the end
[01:41:46] <cradek> whee
[01:41:49] <cradek> is it a primary partition?
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> Disk /dev/hda: 80.0 GB, 80060424192 bytes
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 9733 cylinders
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
[01:41:50] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda1 * 1 15 120456 83 Linux
[01:41:51] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda2 16 499 3887730 83 Linux
[01:41:53] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda3 500 999 4016250 83 Linux
[01:41:55] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda4 1000 9733 70155855 5 Extended
[01:41:57] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda5 1000 4499 28113718+ 83 Linux
[01:42:01] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda6 4500 4599 803218+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris
[01:42:03] <jmkasunich> /dev/hda7 4600 9733 41238823+ 83 Linux
[01:42:22] <jmkasunich> hda7 is the old home
[01:42:34] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure what the others are, I could mount them and look around
[01:42:52] <jmkasunich> hda1 is /boot of the old system
[01:42:53] <cradek> ok you would have to keep 4 (5,6,7) but you could nuke 1,2,3
[01:43:10] <jmkasunich> that would get me 8 gig
[01:43:22] <cradek> how much stuff on home?
[01:44:29] <cradek> (this is easy for me, I'd back up home to tape, nuke the disk and install, then restore home)
[01:44:48] <jmkasunich> old home is about 3 gig
[01:45:03] <cradek> oh that's tiny, can you just save it somewhere on your network?
[01:45:20] <jmkasunich> current disk (hdb) only has 540M free
[01:45:32] <cradek> no other networked machines available?
[01:45:41] <jmkasunich> the farm disks are even smaller
[01:45:58] <jmkasunich> hda is the only 10G+ disk I own
[01:46:00] <cradek> hmm, you could nuke/ignore 1,2,3 and install to 5,6
[01:46:19] <jmkasunich> thats pretty much what the old install was
[01:46:26] <jmkasunich> 1 was /boot
[01:46:31] <cradek> do you have a dvd writer or anything else that can back up 3G?
[01:46:38] <jmkasunich> I think 2 and 3 were /tmp and /var
[01:46:40] <jmkasunich> no
[01:46:42] <jmkasunich> cd writer
[01:46:48] <jmkasunich> but that would suck
[01:46:58] <cradek> yeah CDs are too small for backups today
[01:47:27] <cradek> so I guess you could just install to it partitioned like it is
[01:47:33] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:47:49] <jmkasunich> you know, if I'm gonna do this, I should install dapper
[01:47:54] <cradek> yep
[01:47:59] <cradek> no doubt about it
[01:48:15] <jmkasunich> dapper _will_ want to put some new stuff (lots of hidden files) in my home directory
[01:48:28] <jmkasunich> dunno if the existing hidden files will cause grief
[01:48:41] <cradek> I don't know either
[01:48:41] <jmkasunich> the other partitions could be wiped, they're a non-issue
[01:48:54] <cradek> I suppose that's another reason to keep only what you need from an old home directory
[01:49:17] <jmkasunich> I could move everything that is actually _mine_ (not hidden config crap) into subdirs
[01:49:27] <jmkasunich> then wipe the hidden files from the home dir
[01:49:37] <cradek> the other thing you might consider is getting some kind of backup device, which you probably need anyway, first -- then this becomes easy.
[01:50:02] <jmkasunich> wellllll
[01:50:09] <jmkasunich> I don't know what to do for backup
[01:50:10] <cradek> I'm not telling you what to do, but just an approach to consider
[01:50:24] <jmkasunich> that would mean waiting quite a while
[01:50:42] <jmkasunich> the only local computer store is Microcenter, they don't seem to have tape drives or anything like that
[01:51:15] <jmkasunich> besides, tapes and drives that will back up a $50 hard disk cost more than the disk
[01:51:20] <cradek> you're probably stuck with ebay or something
[01:51:27] <jmkasunich> I've been leaning towards the "use another disk" approach
[01:51:54] <cradek> yeah that is definitely good enough for some common kinds of failures
[01:52:21] <jmkasunich> anyway, lets assume that I'm not gonna tackle the backup issue today, cause I'm lazy
[01:52:28] <cradek> ok :-)
[01:52:58] <jmkasunich> I want to install dapper, using hda (my existing breezy install is on hdb, and should be able to remain untouched
[01:53:27] <jmkasunich> just need to be darned sure that dapper doesn't wipe my old home directory in hda7
[01:54:21] <jmkasunich> so, do I just download and burn the dapper iso, then boot it, and use the custom partitioning tools?
[01:54:28] <cradek> yes
[01:55:02] <cradek> the install lets you choose manual partitioning, then lets you partition (you'll probably do nothing at that step), then asks which partitions to format and use for various mount points
[01:55:39] <cradek> it will install grub on hda's boot record with extra entries that boot the hdb system
[01:55:55] <jmkasunich> how will it know about the hdb system?
[01:56:13] <cradek> it presumably checks the partition types, and snoops around if it finds linux partitions
[01:56:19] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:56:31] <jmkasunich> but I can tell it "hands off" those partitions
[01:56:51] <cradek> yes you tell it which partitions to format and mount for the install; it doesn't mess with the rest.
[01:57:09] <jmkasunich> my main fear is that if I tell it "use hda7 for /home" it will try to format that partition, and install a brand spanking new /home tree on it
[01:57:47] <jmkasunich> I'm tempted to wipe hda5 (28.1G), then split it into 28G hda5 and 100M hda8
[01:57:51] <cradek> then don't tell it to use hda7 for anything when installing; you can mount it later
[01:57:58] <jmkasunich> then tell dapper to put /home on hda8
[01:58:12] <jmkasunich> duh
[01:58:13] <cradek> you don't need to tell it anything about home, it'll end up on /
[01:58:19] <jmkasunich> right, just realized that
[01:58:29] <cradek> (a common install is just / and swap)
[01:58:37] <jmkasunich> right
[01:58:43] <jmkasunich> thats what the breezy install it
[01:58:53] <jmkasunich> and in hindsight, thats probably the smartest way to install
[01:59:06] <cradek> that's a huge "depends"
[01:59:21] <jmkasunich> separate /tmp and /var is a server thing, kinda overkill for a desktop I think?
[01:59:49] <cradek> yes probably overkill
[01:59:58] <jmkasunich> how do you have your system(s) partitioned?
[02:06:45] <cradek> my desktop is a mess, since it has several OS on it
[02:07:33] <jmkasunich> well, I'm not gonna get very far tonight - by the time the iso is downloaded it will be time for sleep
[02:07:34] <cradek> I like to keep all my partitions smaller than a tape, and I prefer to leave unneeded space on a large disk unpartitioned for flexibility later
[02:07:47] <jmkasunich> how big is a tape?
[02:07:57] <cradek> the ones I use are 35G uncompressed
[02:08:17] <jmkasunich> I see the vast majority of my disk usage being in /home
[02:08:29] <cradek> yeah
[02:08:29] <jmkasunich> do you mount more than one partition for your /home tree?
[02:08:37] <cradek> no I never have
[02:08:53] <jmkasunich> you're /home is less then 35G?
[02:09:00] <jmkasunich> your
[02:09:02] <cradek> oh way way less
[02:09:16] <jmkasunich> I guess mine is too
[02:09:27] <jmkasunich> but it keeps growing
[02:09:47] <jmkasunich> this whole exercise started because I was gonna start the vmware install this evening
[02:09:52] <cradek> home here is 8G and I have lots of large emc-live-cd stuff in it
[02:10:03] <jmkasunich> each virtual machine is a huge file, and I was gonna stick them in my home dir
[02:10:24] <jepler> 115G /home/jepler
[02:10:30] <jepler> do I win anything?
[02:10:51] <cradek> not from me...
[02:11:20] <jepler> darn
[02:11:47] <cradek> you do realize those VM files are mostly empty space right? (they don't take up all the space they say in the directory listing until you actually fill them)
[02:12:20] <cradek> so even if you make 8G VM drives, they will take up about 2G on disk if the install inside them takes 2G
[02:12:33] <jmkasunich> true
[02:12:45] <jmkasunich> but complete installs are closer to 4G than 2 these days
[02:12:54] <jmkasunich> and I'm going to have several of them
[02:13:07] <jmkasunich> I'm not worried about filling the 40G hda7
[02:13:12] <jmkasunich> but I'll put a dent in it
[02:13:17] <cradek> my nice virgin dapper install with emc2 compile environment and some other things is right at 2.5G
[02:13:31] <jmkasunich> oh
[02:13:55] <cradek> well plus swap I guess
[02:14:40] <jmkasunich> I'll have to keep that in mind for the next system (or disk)
[02:14:53] <jmkasunich> (small partitions, and don't partition the whole thing)
[02:15:14] <jmkasunich> for now, since I have data on hda7, I don't want to fsck with it (or fdisk with it ;-)
[02:15:28] <cradek> fwiw I tried to shrink an existing linux partition with the dapper install and it did NOT work
[02:15:38] <cradek> so I can't recommend anyone try that
[02:15:49] <jmkasunich> I already decided not to try that
[02:16:01] <cradek> the problem for me may or may not have been trouble reading the CD though.
[02:16:28] <jmkasunich> the 28G / partition is gonna be huge overkill, but that means I can apt-get * and not run out
[02:17:53] <cradek> yeah you'll never fill that
[02:21:48] <jmkasunich> ok, now I have nothing in my old /home/John except directories
[02:21:59] <jmkasunich> so ubuntu can stick hidden files and config stuff wherever it wants
[02:22:15] <jmkasunich> actually, that won't even matter
[02:22:27] <jmkasunich> because the new install will be user john, not John
[02:23:06] <cradek> you could copy your 3G of stuff to the new / partition, then nuke all of that old extended partition
[02:23:28] <jmkasunich> you mean after the install?
[02:23:32] <cradek> yeah
[02:24:00] <jmkasunich> then what? leave /home mounted on the 28G partition, and leave the 40G unused?
[02:24:02] <cradek> you could even make an 8G root, install everything to it, copy your 3G into it, then nuke everything else and make one huge partition for home, or whatever
[02:24:24] <cradek> 8G would be a nice size for root, if you expect to have most of your stuff in home.
[02:24:51] <jmkasunich> root needs to be big enough for anything and everything I install from repositories, right?
[02:25:03] <cradek> yes
[02:25:20] <jmkasunich> is there any real benefit to having a /boot partition?
[02:25:40] <cradek> on a modern machine it's not needed
[02:26:04] <cradek> it's a hack to let the bios load what it needs to boot, even though it can't see the whole disk
[02:26:05] <jmkasunich> it was because of the 1024 cylinder limitaton of older bioses?
[02:26:25] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:26:32] <cradek> something like that I guess, there have been lots of various limitations
[02:26:48] <cradek> right at the beginning has always been the safest place to try I guess
[02:27:03] <jmkasunich> so, I could take hda1, hda2, and hda3 and combine them (that would be about 8G)
[02:27:05] <cradek> but especially if your root isn't huge, and it's at the beginning, there's no need to worry
[02:27:14] <cradek> yes
[02:27:24] <jmkasunich> that should be enough for just about anything I might want to install from the repo's
[02:27:26] <cradek> that lets you not touch the extended until you can get stuff off of it
[02:27:57] <jmkasunich> I copy the 3G from hda7 to home....
[02:28:07] <jmkasunich> hmm
[02:28:14] <jmkasunich> I need a swap partition for the install
[02:28:22] <jmkasunich> right now thats part of the extended
[02:28:24] <jmkasunich> hda6
[02:28:38] <cradek> 7G root?
[02:28:50] <jmkasunich> I guess
[02:28:58] <jmkasunich> once I repartition, home won't be part of root
[02:29:05] <jmkasunich> tmp and var will
[02:29:07] <cradek> or swap to the one that's there, and you can easily do without swap long enough later to move it
[02:29:13] <jmkasunich> and IIRC, vmware wants a large /tmp
[02:29:26] <jmkasunich> you can do without swap?
[02:29:34] <jmkasunich> you can move swap?
[02:29:36] <cradek> in linux, yes
[02:29:36] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[02:29:51] <cradek> yes, just turn off swap, make a new swap partition, mkswap it, then turn swap back on
[02:30:05] <jmkasunich> well I'll be damned
[02:30:13] <jmkasunich> and I'll be asking you questions when its time
[02:30:25] <jmkasunich> ok, that sounds like a plan
[02:30:29] <cradek> it's easy as long as you don't do the wrong thing in fdisk :-)
[02:30:48] <jmkasunich> I should be able to do much of the fdisking now
[02:31:07] <jmkasunich> I don't want to touch hda4-7
[02:31:18] <jmkasunich> but I want to combine hda1 thru 3 into a single hda1
[02:31:56] <jmkasunich> can I safely do that while hda7 is mounted?
[02:32:33] <cradek> you could, but I'd just do it at install time
[02:32:58] <cradek> you may have to reboot after repartitioning because the new table is not reread
[02:33:07] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:33:08] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:37:31] <jmkasunich> let me see if I have this right: my initial install will have /home as part of /
[02:37:52] <cradek> can someone check my work? http://pastebin.ca/223783
[02:38:00] <jmkasunich> I mount hda7 somewhere under /home/john, and copy my old stuff to somewhere else on /home/john
[02:38:06] <jmkasunich> I will, in a minute
[02:38:31] <jmkasunich> then I repartition hda4-7 into whatever... a huge /home or something
[02:38:43] <jmkasunich> I mount that under /mnt or something (temporary)
[02:39:00] <jmkasunich> copy my new /home/john in to /mnt
[02:39:24] <jmkasunich> then how do I make the transition to having the new big partition as /home?
[02:39:29] <jmkasunich> change fstab and reboot?
[02:39:54] <cradek> yes, or mount it while john is logged out
[02:40:14] <jmkasunich> login as root?
[02:40:24] <jmkasunich> which ubuntu makes inconvenient
[02:40:25] <cradek> yeah root has a home directory at /root for this kind of reason
[02:40:34] <cradek> oh just reboot, why bother
[02:40:52] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:41:05] <jmkasunich> well, I looked at the pastebin
[02:41:16] <jmkasunich> but what I know about g-code arcs would fit on the head of a pin
[02:41:20] <jmkasunich> it seems quite reasonable to me
[02:41:31] <jmkasunich> but if you want someone to actually _check_ it, that ain't me
[02:41:44] <cradek> IJ is the incremental distance to the center of the arc, based off the starting coordinate
[02:42:25] <jmkasunich> I'm not so sure the arc is illegal
[02:42:40] <jmkasunich> the X coord is the same as the start, but the Y isn't
[02:42:45] <jmkasunich> so there is a non-zero radius
[02:43:09] <jmkasunich> initial xy = 0.817,1.406
[02:43:18] <jmkasunich> final xy = 0.784, 1.448
[02:43:32] <jmkasunich> center xy = 0.817,1.439
[02:44:04] <cradek> yes
[02:44:20] <jmkasunich> so its not obviously bogus
[02:44:29] <jmkasunich> need to calc the distance from start to center, and end to center
[02:44:37] <cradek> ok you're right
[02:44:37] <jepler> 0.34mumble from center to end
[02:44:41] <jepler> G1 F100 X0.817 Y1.406
[02:44:41] <jepler> G2 X0.784 Y1.448 I0.000 J0.034
[02:44:41] <jepler> M2
[02:44:54] <jepler> in fact, this code is accepted
[02:45:10] <jepler> cradek: oops, I missed that you were working on this too
[02:45:19] <jmkasunich> what about J0.033?
[02:45:34] <jepler> J0.033 is what the poster had and what I meant to paste
[02:45:48] <jepler> experimentally I changed it to 0.034 and that's what I had in my paste buffer
[02:45:53] <cradek> it's accepted?
[02:46:09] <cradek> wonder if these are inch or mm for him
[02:46:13] <jepler> 34 is accepted, 33 (what the OP had) is not
[02:46:14] <cradek> probably inches, being so small
[02:46:22] <jepler> he said something about inches elsewhere in the message
[02:46:46] <cradek> ok glad I didn't reply with my bogus answer
[02:46:48] <jepler> under G21, 33 is accepted, because the tolerance check is different
[02:47:39] <jepler> I'm not absolutely sure that 2.0.3 and CVS don't differ, I think we tweaked something about arc tolerance after the branch
[02:48:50] <cradek> I think that was backported
[02:48:51] <jepler> no it looks like the arc tolerances are the same
[02:49:16] <cradek> axis should show .001 in mm mode then shouldn't it
[02:49:25] <jepler> maybe so
[02:51:44] <cradek> wonder if that's a simple format string fix or will it mess up some alignments
[02:53:19] <jepler> I just noticed that velocity doesn't pay attention to display units
[02:57:51] <cradek> hmm
[02:58:57] <jepler> I'm fixing it
[02:59:03] <cradek> I like your 'best practices' - had not seen it before
[02:59:26] <jepler> I hope it's all good advice :-P
[02:59:50] <cradek> I wanted to argue with your modal settings section, but my argument was wrong (I checked the spec)
[03:01:01] <jepler> which part of it were you worried about?
[03:01:17] <jepler> all those things together sure contravene the next rule
[03:01:52] <jmkasunich> where is this best practices doc?
[03:01:54] <cradek> I remember "something" can only take four gcodes per line. I thought it was emc but I'm wrong
[03:02:07] <jepler> jmkasunich: near here: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode/main/#SECTION00810000000000000000
[03:02:32] <jepler> cradek: I always wondered why the preamble for the ngc files generated from eagle looked like that, but I never changed it
[03:02:45] <cradek> maybe it was maxnc
[03:02:54] <jepler> printf("G64\nG17 G20 G40 G49\nG54 G80 G90 G94\n");
[03:03:04] <cradek> yep I'm sure I wrote that
[03:03:11] <jepler> "oh well, I don't understand g-code so I'll just copy this..."
[03:03:17] <jmkasunich> heh
[03:03:40] <jmkasunich> the encoder on a stepper discussion is interesting
[03:04:26] <jmkasunich> basically they are moving in the direction of treating a stepper like a 50 pole permanent magent AC motor and doing vector control on it
[03:05:03] <jepler> oh noes, it's after 10PM!
[03:05:05] <jepler> 'night guys
[03:05:09] <cradek> goodnight
[03:05:14] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[03:06:07] <jmkasunich> I gotta look at the vmware docs... I think there might be some advantages to putting the vm "disks" in their own partition(s)
[03:07:03] <jepler> one more thing to mention before I leave
[03:07:13] <jepler> cradek pointed at a patch to make arc tolerance an inifile detai
[03:07:14] <jepler> l
[03:07:25] <jepler> why not make it a #-variable? That way, the tolerance comes with the program, not with the machine
[03:07:30] <jepler> I could almost support that idea
[03:08:01] <jmkasunich> interesting
[03:08:01] <cradek> #[arctolerance] = 0.0002
[03:08:32] <jmkasunich> 0.0002 what? mm or inch? ;-)
[03:08:43] <cradek> G20 #[arctolerance] = 0.0002
[03:09:15] <jmkasunich> so program units, whatever they are at the moment?
[03:09:39] <cradek> that's how everything else works, seems like that would be the obvious way to do it
[03:09:57] <cradek> (not that I'm sure it's a good idea at all)
[03:10:16] <jmkasunich> and if you encounter a G21 later, the number in the #var would remain 0.0002, but it would now mean 0.002mm?
[03:10:27] <jmkasunich> 0.0002mm I mean
[03:10:47] <cradek> no, I think it would change to .00508
[03:11:00] <cradek> again I think that's how everything else works (feeds for instance)
[03:11:31] <jmkasunich> so if you write out the var file after a G21 the numbers in the file all change?
[03:11:50] <cradek> no, distances in the var file are (now) written in inifile units always
[03:12:21] <jmkasunich> are are var file variables _all_ assumed to be distances?
[03:12:31] <cradek> definitely not
[03:12:33] <jmkasunich> could get wonky if someone uses a #var as a loop counter
[03:12:47] <jmkasunich> face it, units suck
[03:12:50] <cradek> only the ones that the spec says are distances controlled by the interpreter
[03:12:55] <cradek> hey don't shoot the messenger
[03:13:04] <jmkasunich> I'm not shooting anybody...
[03:13:08] <cradek> but sure, I agree
[03:13:25] <cradek> for a good time read how the spec handled this before I said it was stupid and "fixed" it
[03:13:43] <cradek> the tool table is still stupid IMO
[03:14:18] <jmkasunich> when considered as a "programing language" (ie, using variables, etc, not just G0 X<constant> Y<constant>", g-code falls somewhere short of Z-80 assembly language
[03:14:41] <jmkasunich> at least assembly lets you name variables
[03:15:33] <cradek> as bad as it is, it works for controlling a mill
[03:15:41] <jmkasunich> true
[03:16:06] <jmkasunich> mostly because few people use the X<constant> mode
[03:16:12] <jmkasunich> s/few/most/
[03:16:18] <cradek> yeah
[03:16:31] <cradek> sometimes I think anything else is just a parlor trick
[03:17:15] <cradek> I'm fond of my slot and hole milling routines, but mostly because they're such neat tricks
[03:18:59] <cradek> I should go to bed before midnight today...
[03:19:15] <jmkasunich> its not even 10:30
[03:19:32] <jmkasunich> well, I managed a neat trick
[03:19:36] <cradek> what's that
[03:19:39] <jmkasunich> I printed out some vmware manuals at work
[03:19:51] <jmkasunich> managed to punch one chunk of the manual on the wrong side
[03:19:59] <cradek> oops
[03:20:15] <jmkasunich> so the page numbers went: 20, 21, 22, 66, 65, 64, 63....25, 24, 23, 67, 68, 69
[03:20:32] <jmkasunich> a bit confusing until I figured it out
[03:22:00] <cradek> sometimes I wish for a duplexer at home, but I print so rarely
[03:22:16] <jmkasunich> same here
[03:22:36] <jmkasunich> but for some manuals, its hard to beat paper
[03:22:55] <cradek> usually I'll trade paper for hyperlinks
[03:23:09] <jmkasunich> btw, by default vmware pre-allocates the full size of the virtual disk, it doesn't grow as you fill it
[03:23:18] <cradek> ouch
[03:23:52] <jmkasunich> I bet it performs better that way
[03:24:00] <jmkasunich> because there is less sector remapping needed
[03:24:10] <cradek> sure
[03:25:04] <cradek> virtual size: 4.0G (4294967296 bytes)
[03:25:04] <cradek> disk size: 4.0G
[03:25:11] <cradek> hmm, you're right
[03:25:23] <jmkasunich> vmware gives you the option of not doing that
[03:25:28] <cradek> file format: vmdk
[03:25:28] <cradek> virtual size: 10G (10737418240 bytes)
[03:25:28] <cradek> disk size: 1.8G
[03:25:35] <cradek> looks like I used that option on the big one
[03:25:44] <jmkasunich> they also give you the option of mapping a virtual disk direct to a partition, instead of to a file
[03:25:51] <jmkasunich> dunno what the pros and cons of that are yet
[03:26:18] <cradek> well in theory you could boot it, but in practice that probably won't work very well because all the "hardware" is different
[03:26:30] <cradek> for something like freedos maybe it would be fine
[03:26:51] <cradek> but even then you might want networking which would have the same problem
[03:27:46] <jmkasunich> I think using files would be a safer approach
[03:27:54] <cradek> me too
[03:28:09] <jmkasunich> especially if I get a faster or dual-core box someday
[03:28:17] <jmkasunich> move the files to the new box, and presto
[03:28:25] <jmkasunich> if they are partitions, much messier I bet
[03:28:35] <cradek> have you tried vmware yet? it's much faster than qemu ever was
[03:28:42] <jmkasunich> not yet
[03:28:47] <cradek> yeah I wouldn't recommend using real partitions
[03:28:58] <jmkasunich> I didn't have enough disk on hdb to set up a VM
[03:29:09] <jmkasunich> thats how this evening's excersize got started
[03:29:13] <cradek> ah
[03:30:22] <jmkasunich> are swapon and swapoff used to control swapping?
[03:30:29] <cradek> yes
[03:30:37] <jmkasunich> the man page implies that you always specify a device, not just on and off
[03:30:45] <cradek> or -a probably
[03:30:49] <cradek> (to read fstab)
[03:30:55] <jmkasunich> ok,
[03:31:00] <jmkasunich> so the process would be:
[03:31:04] <jmkasunich> swapoff
[03:31:15] <jmkasunich> edit fstab to call out the new device, and not call out the old one
[03:31:18] <jmkasunich> swapon -a
[03:31:27] <jmkasunich> (after doing mkswap on the new)
[03:31:30] <cradek> mkswap /dev/new
[03:31:38] <cradek> yes
[03:31:42] <cradek> or just reboot
[03:34:59] <jmkasunich> if rebootting, do I still need to swapoff before editing fstab?
[03:35:12] <cradek> no
[03:35:43] <cradek> http://sharon.esrac.ele.tue.nl/pub/antenne/13-double-quad.jpg
[03:35:49] <cradek> antennas are magic to me
[03:36:03] <jmkasunich> FM
[03:36:37] <jmkasunich> are you a ham?
[03:36:43] <cradek> nope
[03:36:59] <cradek> I've considered doing it to make myself learn about antennas etc.
[03:37:14] <jmkasunich> I had a ham license a long time ago
[03:37:15] <cradek> I don't like things being magic
[03:37:35] <cradek> so you passed a test with antenna stuff
[03:37:44] <jmkasunich> then I realized that I was only interested in the radio, and ham is really about _talking_ on the radio, not _working_ on the radio
[03:37:57] <cradek> yep
[03:38:00] <jmkasunich> the tests have almost no technical requirements
[03:38:13] <jmkasunich> and its possible to be a ham without building a single thing
[03:38:21] <jmkasunich> not only possible, but very common now
[03:38:26] <cradek> I've built some receivers that stumbled upon amateur bands, but listening to them grouse about their wives is boring
[03:38:38] <cradek> huh
[03:38:46] <cradek> well that's not interesting to me at all
[03:39:46] <cradek> I'm interested in the history of radio so I'd want to build and operate early sets
[03:40:27] <cradek> do you ever listen to shortwave on new years eve? seems they all switch to code
[03:40:29] <jmkasunich> tubes!
[03:40:39] <jmkasunich> haven't listened
[03:40:52] <jmkasunich> when I was into it, they used code more often than just new years
[03:41:01] <jmkasunich> I was about 16 when I first got a license
[03:41:37] <cradek> is that 70s?
[03:41:45] <jmkasunich> late 70s
[03:41:46] <cradek> forget how old you are
[03:41:52] <cradek> so all transistor by then
[03:41:53] <jmkasunich> I graduated high school in 80
[03:42:01] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:42:17] <jmkasunich> but I was interested in tubes, and I had lots of older books and such
[03:42:30] <cradek> I have a few of those too
[03:42:55] <cradek> I fixed old radios for a while, it was fun, but the only good AM station here switched to a sports format, so I lost interest
[03:43:22] <cradek> radios were magic to me for a long time, so I tackled it, glad I did
[03:44:49] <jmkasunich> can you take a look at http://pastebin.ca/223870 ?
[03:47:16] <jmkasunich> oops, I think I need to delete the temporary /home before the reboot (it will be hidden by the new /home after the reboot)
[03:47:22] <cradek> before you mount ov .... yeah
[03:47:29] <cradek> was just typing that
[03:47:36] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[03:47:44] <cradek> that's the only problem I see
[03:48:07] <cradek> and mkswap /dev/hda2 after fdisk /dev/hda
[03:48:15] <cradek> oh I see it
[03:48:24] <jmkasunich> I probably want to do su root before I delete my home dir?
[03:48:32] <jmkasunich> then reboot right after that
[03:48:33] <cradek> I suppose
[03:48:50] <cradek> well you probably don't want to be logged in
[03:48:56] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[03:48:59] <jmkasunich> thats what I mean
[03:49:05] <cradek> just deleting everything in it is good enough
[03:49:17] <cradek> or you could use single user (recovery?) mode
[03:49:21] <cradek> whatever they call it nowadays
[03:49:57] <jmkasunich> http://pastebin.ca/223873
[03:50:13] <cradek> I know you can't make full backups, but if there are a few very critical things, consider copying them somewhere before you start
[03:50:45] <jmkasunich> well, most of the recent stuff is on hdb1
[03:51:10] <cradek> that will be hard to screw up unless you mkswap the wrong partition or something.
[03:51:49] <jmkasunich> I'll be doing mkswap on hda2, so hdb1 is a pretty severe typo
[03:51:53] <cradek> you are smart to make a plan so you have all the partition numbers in front of you
[03:52:17] <jmkasunich> if I'm really smart I'll remember to print it on paper before I start
[03:52:27] <cradek> haha
[03:52:42] <jmkasunich> the dapper iso is still only 75% loaded
[03:52:50] <jmkasunich> so I'll tackle this tomorrow
[03:53:01] <cradek> I still print my dmesg before I reinstall because of the old days when you had to know all your irq and dma numbers
[03:53:15] <jmkasunich> I think I'll add some more detail to the plan (like looking up the options for the various commands)
[03:53:29] <jmkasunich> then pastebin it again for review, before I print it out and get started
[03:53:39] <cradek> heh that reminds me the other day I found some old notes for an early linux install:
[03:53:44] <cradek> sda1 DOS 40MB
[03:53:48] <cradek> sda2 Linux 267 MB
[03:53:53] <cradek> sda3 Linux swap 23MB
[03:54:00] <cradek> hda1 Linux 5MB
[03:54:03] <cradek> hda2 DOS 150MB
[03:54:17] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[03:54:23] <jmkasunich> times they have changed...
[03:54:31] <cradek> I can't imagine what the 5MB on hda1 was
[03:54:42] <cradek> maybe something I needed to boot
[03:54:51] <jmkasunich> /boot?
[03:55:05] <cradek> maybe so, or maybe it was actually the root partition
[03:55:20] <cradek> these were full size drives of course, a 340 SCSI and a 160 ESDI
[03:55:39] <cradek> I think that was my amazingly fast 386/40
[03:56:16] <jmkasunich> I think one of my first vmware guests is gonna be win95
[03:56:30] <cradek> that'll run very nicely I bet
[03:56:40] <cradek> didn't we do that at fest??
[03:56:42] <jmkasunich> so I can install easycad
[03:56:51] <jmkasunich> qemu only
[03:56:55] <cradek> oh right
[03:56:58] <jmkasunich> never got networking to work right
[03:57:01] <jmkasunich> and some other issues
[03:57:04] <jmkasunich> it was messy
[03:57:14] <cradek> I remember that now
[03:57:27] <cradek> something was wrong with the video too I thin
[03:57:28] <cradek> k
[03:57:31] <jmkasunich> right now the only way I move things between w95 and the rest of the world is by emailing them
[03:57:41] <cradek> ha
[03:57:48] <jmkasunich> which works fine for the occaisional drawing
[03:57:54] <jmkasunich> not so good for bulk data
[03:58:33] <jmkasunich> the only thing I use that box for is Kasunich Engineering bookkeeping (invoices and such) and drafting
[03:58:49] <jmkasunich> the invoices are just excel spreadsheets, I bet gnumeric will handle them just fine
[03:59:52] <cradek> yeah I bet
[04:00:00] <jmkasunich> hmm.. one nice thing about w95 is pdf995 - its a printer driver that prints to a pdf file
[04:00:09] <jmkasunich> great for mailing invoices, etc
[04:00:17] <jmkasunich> dunno how easy that is under linux
[04:00:19] <cradek> I put together very nice looking invoices in LaTeX but they're not trivial to edit if you're not a LaTeX user already
[04:00:35] <jmkasunich> does it do the math and everything?
[04:00:37] <cradek> making ps or pdf is pretty easy in all modern linux apps I bet
[04:00:59] <cradek> no I think I didn't bother to make it do the math; for me it was always just adding a couple round numbers
[04:01:06] <jmkasunich> my invoice spreadsheet is 4 pages
[04:01:23] <jmkasunich> I do data entry on the first page - buyer info, etc, plus what they ordered, price, and quantity
[04:01:30] <jmkasunich> the next three are the printable ones
[04:01:40] <jmkasunich> shipping label, packing list, and invoice
[04:01:48] <jmkasunich> all get their data from the first page
[04:03:34] <cradek> cool
[04:04:02] <cradek> I did envelopes too, but I don't remember how I did shipping labels, it's been a while
[04:04:15] <jmkasunich> my stuff doesn't fit in envelopes
[04:04:27] <jmkasunich> (or do you mean envelopes for the invoices?)
[04:04:32] <cradek> haha, for the invoices
[04:05:08] <jmkasunich> I should do something like that
[04:05:27] <jmkasunich> but I don't want to screw around figuring out how to run envelopes thru the laser
[04:05:53] <cradek> I would stick the envelope in and type "make envelope" - very unix geek
[04:05:58] <jmkasunich> maybe just print the address on a piece of paper, scissors and clear packing tape to the envelope
[04:06:08] <cradek> or use a pen :-)
[04:06:14] <jmkasunich> I use a pen now
[04:06:31] <jmkasunich> but a printed address is a little more "pre-fessional"
[04:06:33] <cradek> you just drag it around the paper to form marks in the shape of letters
[04:06:39] <cradek> heh
[04:16:07] <SWPadnos> openoffice (all the apps, AFAIK) can directly export PDF files, no printer driver needed
[04:18:09] <jmkasunich> good.
[04:27:14] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/01161921561
[04:28:19] <jmkasunich> heh
[04:28:38] <cradek> the thought of "CD-ROM World" really makes me snicker today
[04:29:09] <cradek> for a while people bought a caddy for each new CD too, he had a big pile of them
[04:29:31] <jmkasunich> I can't seem to find md5sums for the ubuntu isos
[04:29:39] <jmkasunich> (download finally finished)
[04:29:46] <cradek> they're there somewhere
[04:30:07] <jmkasunich> found it
[04:30:14] <jmkasunich> male pattern blindness
[04:30:27] <cradek> oh hell, am I going to get that too?
[04:31:14] <jmkasunich> yes
[04:32:27] <jmkasunich> they match! yay!
[04:32:29] <jmkasunich> bedtime
[04:32:36] <cradek> goodnight
[04:32:36] <cradek> me too
[12:58:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler: is the setting for DTG (if it's on or off) supposed to be remembered between EMC2 sessions? (as it is now, if one starts EMC2, enables DTG, and restarts EMC2 DTG will start off disabled)
[13:02:39] <skunkworks2> dtg?
[13:04:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> distance to go, shows how far the axes will move untill the end of the current move. (dtg=sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2)
[13:04:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh
[13:04:12] <skunkworks2> cool
[13:05:08] <Lerneaen_Hydra> wait.. more like dtg=sqrt((x-xcurrent)^2+(y-ycurrent)^2+(z-zcurrent)^2)
[13:06:28] <alex_joni> and a-axurrent, etc
[13:07:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> are linear and rotational axes separated? they must be, right?
[13:07:28] <alex_joni> right
[13:07:43] <alex_joni> and they need to finish at the same time if there's a compound move
[13:09:06] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yeah
[13:50:25] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[14:11:53] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: no, none of that is remembered.
[14:12:07] <alex_joni> at least not by AXIS
[14:12:17] <alex_joni> he referred to x-position and y-position too
[14:14:56] <SWPadnos> actually, that's a usability issue that may want to be tackled for 2.1
[14:15:19] <jepler> by "none of that" I meant the settings you can toggle on and off in axis
[14:15:19] <SWPadnos> windows should come back where they were closed before
[14:15:25] <SWPadnos> sure
[14:15:31] <SWPadnos> that, too :)
[14:15:41] <jepler> NO NO NO
[14:15:52] <jepler> it's the desktop environment / window manager's job to position the windows
[14:15:55] <SWPadnos> I know - that's a window manager thing
[14:16:06] <jepler> did you say that just to tweak me, then?
[14:16:11] <SWPadnos> heh - no
[14:16:26] <SWPadnos> but I knew what you'd say *after* the nonono
[14:16:57] <SWPadnos> do you know if Gnome has an option to remember where an application window was?
[14:17:02] <jepler> nfc
[14:17:14] <SWPadnos> I know you can save and restore sessions
[20:30:41] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: somehow useable now :)
[20:30:43] <alex_joni> wanna see?
[20:30:57] <SWPadnos> sure
[20:31:32] <alex_joni> psd is a bit big :)
[20:31:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni tried to export/rescale
[20:31:42] <alex_joni> tries even
[20:31:44] <SWPadnos> uh-oh
[20:35:36] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/emc/emc2_user_manual_cover.png
[20:41:25] <jepler> alex_joni: is that a front and back cover?
[20:41:47] <cradek> I really like that photo sam took at fest
[20:41:55] <SWPadnos> wraparound, with a vertical break
[20:42:00] <alex_joni> yeah, left is back cover
[20:42:31] <SWPadnos> I like it, but I think I'd change some of the wording
[20:42:42] <cradek> yeah I was trying to think of how to say that nicely
[20:42:52] <SWPadnos> hopefully I managed that :)
[20:43:02] <alex_joni> I said I'm after constructive criticism :)
[20:43:13] <cradek> and I was wondering how to get out of having to suggest the new text
[20:43:20] <SWPadnos> so "you suck" doesn't qualify then?
[20:43:30] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: you suck?
[20:43:51] <alex_joni> not really :P
[20:43:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:43:59] <cradek> I like the penguins, it's kind of a visual pun
[20:44:26] <cradek> you need a new axis screenshot too :-)
[20:44:33] <alex_joni> cradek: send one over
[20:44:45] <alex_joni> I have only some with problems :)
[20:44:46] <SWPadnos> one thing I considered is that in the top text block, people looking at the cover don't know the names ofthe GUIs
[20:44:49] <alex_joni> like the off-path
[20:45:03] <jepler> oh yeah get a new axis screenshot indeed
[20:45:14] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I think only people who know emc2 will want this
[20:45:22] <alex_joni> s/emc2/emc*/
[20:45:30] <SWPadnos> that's true - it won't be sitting on store shelves any time soon ;)
[20:45:55] <SWPadnos> but even users of emc2 don't generally know about the "other" GUIs - other than the one they use
[20:45:56] <alex_joni> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/axisubuntu.png <- this any better?
[20:46:21] <alex_joni> somehow I agree that it's not of the most important features
[20:46:28] <SWPadnos> http://www.cncgear.com/images/Screenshot.png ;)
[20:46:35] <cradek> EMC2 is a flexible machine controller. It is being used to control mills, lathes, plasma and laser cutting tools, punches, and more.
[20:46:39] <alex_joni> guess I'm _very_ open to text & wording suggestions
[20:47:19] <cradek> It can be used to control?
[20:47:21] <SWPadnos> cradek, I like that
[20:48:26] <SWPadnos> I guess the overriding thing that gets me is that there are comparisons to something (nicer, new), but it's not clear what (emc?, Mach? Allen Bradley?)
[20:48:41] <SWPadnos> and it may be unimportant to use comparison words in this context
[20:49:40] <cradek> if we want to say things are new, maybe we want "EMC2 now has"
[20:49:53] <cradek> but actually, none of those things are new in v2.1.
[20:50:14] <SWPadnos> or in emc2, for the most part
[20:50:19] <alex_joni> threading is
[20:50:23] <SWPadnos> I think there was a CL implementation for emc
[20:50:32] <cradek> that's news to me
[20:50:32] <alex_joni> it never worked in emc1
[20:50:33] <SWPadnos> paul has done some threading work, though I'm not sure it's done
[20:50:41] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: never seen that
[20:50:50] <alex_joni> only work on the interp, and that's in emc2
[20:50:51] <cradek> he said it was done, but nobody ever saw it, even before he ran off
[20:50:56] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/axis.png
[20:50:58] <SWPadnos> I don;t know if it was ever released
[20:51:05] <jepler> here's another circuit board screenshot with today's axis
[20:52:01] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/axis2.png
[20:52:18] <cradek> joy!
[20:52:41] <cradek> maybe a lathe screenshot with a tool shape would be niftier
[20:52:45] <alex_joni> I like the first one better
[20:53:06] <alex_joni> http://axis.unpy.net/files/01151519310/axis-lathe-tool.png ?
[20:53:15] <cradek> it would be nice if all the controls were enabled too
[20:53:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I have some lathe programs if you want
[20:53:38] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: got an ubuntu running?
[20:53:41] <alex_joni> make a snapshot
[20:53:43] <cradek> DTG etc would be nice
[20:53:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> not atm
[20:54:01] <skunkworks1> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/Dapper.png
[20:54:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I can send the program otherwise (or just take a screenie tomorrow)
[20:54:47] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: tomorrow works too
[20:55:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok
[20:55:43] <alex_joni> cradek: thanks for the wording
[20:55:56] <cradek> welcome
[20:56:01] <cradek> I'm still pondering the other sections
[20:56:09] <SWPadnos> yeah, me too
[20:57:12] <cradek> also it would be nice if we could say/show which kind of "free" emc is
[20:58:02] <cradek> the free software world needs something like the "designed for windows xxx" logo thing
[20:58:18] <jepler> "designed for freedom"
[20:58:40] <jepler> you don't want that -- there would turn out to be some trademark problem that would make it unusable by debian
[20:58:50] <cradek> am I nuts or are you serious or both?
[20:59:10] <alex_joni> http://www.kde-files.org/content/pre1/44841-1.png
[20:59:18] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/axis-lathe.png
[20:59:46] <SWPadnos> "EMC2 has many exciting features and brings a lot of enhanced functionality: a flexilble and user-configurable Hardware Abstraction Layer; a software PLC controller; streamlined installation and updates; many sample machine configurations; a new trajectory planner; and more."
[20:59:48] <cradek> beautiful
[20:59:52] <jepler> (redo of axis-lathe-tool.png)
[20:59:53] <SWPadnos> hmmm - maybe too wordy
[21:00:18] <cradek> nuke 'a new trajectory planner'
[21:00:22] <SWPadnos> ok
[21:00:40] <jepler> "flexilble" is splled wrong
[21:00:48] <cradek> "we got rid of lots of irritating bugs" isn't really an exciting enhanced functionality
[21:01:28] <skunkworks1> A working trajectory planner ;)
[21:01:47] <jepler> skunkworks1: the old one was perfectly good if you never did helical arcs
[21:02:16] <cradek> jepler: or cared if your machine constraints were wildly violated
[21:02:27] <cradek> err, and didn't care, whatever
[21:02:46] <skunkworks1> I thought it also had problems with reversals - also sterility in men
[21:02:48] <cradek> SWPadnos: S&W says your items should be separated by commas, not semicolons
[21:04:28] <cradek> other than that I like your wording a lot
[21:04:31] <alex_joni> ok, changed tham
[21:04:33] <alex_joni> them
[21:04:38] <SWPadnos> ok
[21:04:44] <alex_joni> that leaves the top paragraph :)
[21:04:52] <SWPadnos> I had a colon, so used semicolons as separators
[21:05:56] <SWPadnos> wasn't cradek's line for the second paragraph?
[21:06:09] <SWPadnos> duh - nevermind :)
[21:06:28] <SWPadnos> I don't know how, but I read "top paragraph" as "middle paragraph" ;)
[21:06:43] <alex_joni> they are both above the bottom one
[21:07:21] <SWPadnos> "Customizable user experience. Several user interfaces including Axis (left), TkEMC (bottom) and others to fit any user style"
[21:07:23] <alex_joni> is the text readable enough?
[21:07:27] <SWPadnos> yep
[21:07:39] <alex_joni> I'm not so sure about the blue now
[21:07:48] <SWPadnos> s/several/selectable/
[21:08:02] <SWPadnos> I can ask my (graphic designer) wife later ;)
[21:09:13] <alex_joni> I have a bit of a problem with the blue on darker orange
[21:09:16] <SWPadnos> she'll probably say "well, it looks like an engineer designed it" ;)
[21:09:16] <alex_joni> on the interfaces
[21:09:31] <SWPadnos> yep - that is a little low contrast
[21:11:01] <SWPadnos> you could put 3 horizontal rectangles on the back, one for each text/photo pair
[21:11:17] <SWPadnos> use them to lighten/darken the background, depending on where they are
[21:11:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> the orange and the blue text don't go well together
[21:11:36] <SWPadnos> (I don't know if youhave a "lens" or "effect" tool with your drawing program)
[21:12:04] <SWPadnos> artistically, it's probably not that good. technically, there's plenty of contrast over most of the image ;)
[21:12:05] <alex_joni> I darkened the text colour
[21:12:10] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and the photo sort of sticks out
[21:12:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> IMO a render or something would fit in better
[21:12:28] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: that would look really "engineerish"
[21:12:43] <SWPadnos> only if you have a graph paper pattern ;)
[21:13:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> for the love of <deity> don't insert a lens flare...
[21:13:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra hopes this does not come off sounding like a bash
[21:13:52] <SWPadnos> not flare
[21:14:23] <cradek> for the first paragraph, AXIS is spelled AXIS
[21:14:49] <SWPadnos> ok -I mis-capitalized it
[21:14:54] <alex_joni> cradek: of course it is ;)
[21:15:41] <SWPadnos> hmmm - can you get a CD pouch in those books?
[21:15:53] <Lerneaen_Hydra> (am I the only one that mistakes the micrometer for a sickle?)
[21:15:59] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:16:07] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: yes
[21:16:18] <Lerneaen_Hydra> at least when the image is small
[21:17:16] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: that would be nice
[21:17:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra gets lots of "OSS = communism" and "oss is unamerican" assosiations XD
[21:17:54] <SWPadnos> what's the lead time on getting these printed?
[21:17:57] <alex_joni> ok, second version uploading now
[21:18:07] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I would want before christmas
[21:18:16] <alex_joni> would make a good present for mayself
[21:18:28] <SWPadnos> yes, for 2.1. I'm thinking of 2.2 and Fest/CNC workshop
[21:18:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> is this going to be standard a dvd-size case?
[21:18:50] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: standard book size
[21:18:52] <SWPadnos> a bit bigger, I think
[21:19:03] <alex_joni> 8.5 x 10.25 ?
[21:19:11] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, so it's for the physical manual & a livecd?
[21:20:02] <alex_joni> emc2_user_manual_cover_v2.png
[21:20:06] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: yes
[21:20:13] <alex_joni> http://www.robcon.ro/emc/emc2_user_manual_cover_v2.png
[21:20:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> IMO a more neutral, toned down background is less harsh on the eyes
[21:21:09] <cradek> alex_joni: in the middle paragraph you have an extra )
[21:21:36] <alex_joni> cradek: thanks
[21:21:37] <cradek> in the bottom paragraph add a , before the last and
[21:21:40] <anonimasu> if you would like a screenshot to use you can take the one I took of that switch housing
[21:21:44] <alex_joni> it's hard to edit text at 15-20%
[21:22:05] <SWPadnos> heh.
[21:22:07] <cradek> I don't like the top one being two non-sentences
[21:22:26] <cradek> this sentence no verb
[21:22:32] <cradek> haha
[21:22:40] <cradek> I have to go
[21:22:53] <alex_joni> ok, later .. enjoy the weekend
[21:23:02] <cradek> thanks you too
[21:23:12] <SWPadnos> see you later guys
[21:23:17] <alex_joni> I will.. will drive to the mountains tomorrow morning
[21:23:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coveroe9.jpg
[21:23:57] <alex_joni> yuck
[21:24:02] <Lerneaen_Hydra> there's a dvd cover I made a while back, IMO the darker/more neutral background makes it easier to read
[21:24:17] <alex_joni> sorry.. didn't know it was by you :)
[21:24:21] <Lerneaen_Hydra> :p
[21:24:25] <alex_joni> would have responded a bit better I think
[21:24:46] <cradek> haha
[21:25:13] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra is at a loss of what to say, but tries to convey a meaning of no offense taken, or something
[21:25:27] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: it's not _that_ bad ;)
[21:25:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> haha
[21:25:36] <alex_joni> now that I closed the window, I start to like it
[21:25:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> don't you try to make it sound better now :p
[21:27:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it's messy becuase you see all three sides, anyway the bit I meant was the back bit, maybe something like that (I'm just brainstorming here)
[21:28:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> looks like I scared alex away
[21:28:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:28:55] <alex_joni> nah.. just getting sleepy
[21:30:02] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: let me know what your designer (wife) thinks :)
[21:30:15] <SWPadnos> heh - will do
[21:31:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I'm sticking with my orange = teh icky (at least for backgrounds),that the text is still somewhat hard to read, and the photo sort of sticks out (maybe a border around all images/screenshots?), but otherwise is a good base
[21:32:04] <SWPadnos> the orange thing is to match Ubuntu, I think
[21:32:09] <alex_joni> indeed
[21:32:28] <SWPadnos> maybe use the ubuntu background, which is a bit more brown in one of them (Dapper, I think)
[21:32:42] <alex_joni> and I thought about a series of these, maybe a blueish one like Blubuntu :) (for EMC2_Integrator)
[21:32:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh. why stick so close to ubuntu?
[21:32:53] <alex_joni> and a .... one for the developers
[21:32:58] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: cause it's nice
[21:33:07] <alex_joni> and it's helping emc2 leap forward
[21:33:09] <SWPadnos> because that's where installation / ease-of-use features are targeted at this point
[21:33:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> uh, ubuntu color themes is what I meant
[21:33:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ubuntu as a dist I definetly understant
[21:33:40] <SWPadnos> continuity of look ;)
[21:33:57] <alex_joni> and I'm fond of orange lately
[21:34:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm.
[21:34:09] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: do one yourself :)
[21:34:59] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I think I may be too lazy ;)
[21:35:46] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that previous project sapped a bit of my computer artsy stuff (make a 2-hour movie with dvd menus and subtitles...) ick
[22:10:47] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: http://www.lulu.com/help/index.php?fSymbol=disc_faq#FAQLink2
[22:11:06] <SWPadnos> bummer
[22:11:17] <SWPadnos> I wonder if one of the other ones that jepler posted can do that
[22:12:09] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I was more thinking that there migh be able to be a paper CD holder laminated in, not to have them produce it
[22:12:33] <alex_joni> they do produce CDs
[22:12:39] <alex_joni> just not together with the book
[22:12:56] <SWPadnos> right, but all I want is a carrier in the book. we can get the CDs elsewhere (or from them, it doesn't matter)
[22:13:09] <alex_joni> we'll put it ourselves there
[22:13:20] <SWPadnos> rigth
[22:13:21] <SWPadnos> right
[23:21:45] <jmkasunich> evening folks