#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-07-26

[01:45:19] <jmkasunich> logger_devel: bookmark
[01:45:19] <jmkasunich> See
[01:47:19] <jmkasunich> anybody home?
[01:54:23] <steves_logging> Just us loggers.....
[01:55:09] <jmkasunich> a logger that can pass a turing test?
[01:55:30] <jmkasunich> how you been Steve? its been a while since we talked
[01:56:08] <steves_logging> Still working through my moving. Household was easy, shop stuff is a killer.
[01:56:36] <steves_logging> Running out of places to put things.
[01:56:38] <jmkasunich> trying to find places to store stuff you had forgotten you even had?
[01:57:43] <steves_logging> Forgotten doesn't even begin to cover it... I cannot imagine that I had so much stuff. Luckily I have many good friend who try to help.
[01:58:01] <steves_logging> My problem is being organized enough to use the help.
[01:58:06] <jmkasunich> is this just "home shop" stuff, or did you move the business too?
[01:59:04] <steves_logging> Home shop, just way too much of it, over 50 tons and 1000 square feet.
[01:59:50] <jmkasunich> 100 lbs/square foot? man, you had it packed in there!
[01:59:59] <steves_logging> Only have 24' x 24' of "shed" space for now. Stuffing things everywhere.
[02:00:14] <steves_logging> Oh, some of the stuff was outside under tarps....
[02:00:27] <steves_logging> Trying to do better now for most of it.
[02:00:52] <jmkasunich> I didn't realize you had pack-rat syndrome so badly ;-)
[02:02:04] <steves_logging> Hey, I gave my Broderson carry-deck crane to Matt Shaver!!
[02:02:54] <jmkasunich> what the heck did you have one of those for?
[02:03:02] <jmkasunich> to move around the other stuff?
[02:03:33] <steves_logging> Yep, it was great for reaching into the back of the pack of tarped machines and plucking out the one you wanted. 8-)
[02:03:47] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[02:04:39] <steves_logging> Now I have to make do with two rough terrain forklifts, one at the old place, one at the new.
[02:04:54] <jmkasunich> oh, the suffering
[02:05:06] <steves_logging> Only my neighbors....
[02:05:44] <jmkasunich> how close are the neighbors? are they aghast?
[02:06:37] <steves_logging> Two acre parcels, closest neighbor has the same disease. And he told me about the property that I bought.
[02:06:51] <jmkasunich> ah, that helps a lot
[02:07:46] <steves_logging> So... what is the thumbnail sketch of the new stuff being added to HAL?
[02:08:02] <jmkasunich> ?
[02:08:12] <jmkasunich> not really that much right now
[02:08:22] <jmkasunich> dribs and drabs as people request things
[02:08:42] <jmkasunich> min-max and multiplier blocks added to blocks.c not too long ago
[02:08:45] <steves_logging> I see talk of configuration via GUI ???
[02:08:52] <jmkasunich> only talk
[02:09:40] <steves_logging> What are all the "widgets" about?
[02:09:56] <jmkasunich> halvcp - virtual control panel
[02:10:18] <steves_logging> Control panel, but not configuration?
[02:10:23] <jmkasunich> you can put buttons, toggles, leds, etc on a screen and have them either drive or be driven by hal pins
[02:10:44] <cradek> steves_logging: sounds like you need someone to take a bridgeport off your hands
[02:10:56] <jmkasunich> are you volunteering?
[02:11:03] <jmkasunich> actually, he just go the bport
[02:11:16] <cradek> ah
[02:11:40] <steves_logging> Well, it is the second. Got it to experiment with design "Bridgeport sized" motor drivers.
[02:12:18] <steves_logging> Also have a stock Boss-8 Series 1 and a baby Kitamura machining center.
[02:12:18] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:15:00] <steves_logging> So VCP is a bit like LabView, but no connecting real world hardware.
[02:15:15] <jmkasunich> not really
[02:15:44] <jmkasunich> VCP gives you buttons and leds and such, but the actual interconnection is still done with halcmd and text .hal files
[02:16:05] <jmkasunich> labview is a visual tool for doing the interconnect, thats on the "someday" list
[02:16:27] <jmkasunich> VCP buttons can be connected to real-world I/O though, just like any other HAL signal
[02:16:31] <steves_logging> So you add a button to the VCP screen and need to do the interconnect to it with text commands?
[02:16:48] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:16:56] <jmkasunich> even adding the button is text
[02:17:05] <jmkasunich> vcp reads a file that looks something like:
[02:17:10] <jmkasunich> main_window {
[02:17:14] <jmkasunich> box {
[02:17:19] <jmkasunich> layout = vertical
[02:17:46] <jmkasunich> led { on-color = red off-color = black halpin = foo }
[02:17:50] <jmkasunich> etc, etc
[02:17:59] <steves_logging> So I could hook up a real encoder to a VCP display as a DRO?
[02:18:08] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:18:23] <jmkasunich> at least, as soon as we get a numeric display widget added to VCP ;-)
[02:18:56] <steves_logging> Sounds like VCP could be helpful in debugging hardware drivers in open loop mode as opposed to trying to debug closed loops with EMC running.
[02:19:10] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:19:16] <jmkasunich> handy for lots of stuff
[02:20:06] <jmkasunich> one guy who's name I keep forgetting has done a plasma torch control that works with EMC
[02:20:26] <jmkasunich> he uses VCP for all the torch specific controls, it sits right next to either TkEMC or Axis
[02:21:03] <steves_logging> So you can build a real control panel, not just test stuff.
[02:21:20] <jmkasunich> kind of
[02:21:31] <jmkasunich> you can do things like opening a g-code file with vcp
[02:21:44] <jmkasunich> only stuff that is accessible from HAL
[02:22:06] <jmkasunich> but alex wrote something called halui, that makes a lot of "GUI" stuff HAL accessible
[02:22:27] <jmkasunich> things like jog buttons can now be driven from hal
[02:22:46] <jmkasunich> using VCP -> halui -> jog is kinda silly, because the GUIs already have buttons...
[02:23:14] <jmkasunich> but doing "physical button -> input port -> hal -> halui -> jog" lets you have a physical jog button
[02:23:20] <jmkasunich> (for instance on a pendant)
[02:23:33] <steves_logging> OK, so VCP gives access, but you still need to build HAL components or Classic Ladder stuff to perform functions like tourch height control?
[02:23:58] <jmkasunich> VCP gives you on screen widgets that can talk to HAL
[02:24:19] <jmkasunich> halui lets HAL issue things like "jog", "start spindle", "cycle start", etc
[02:24:40] <jmkasunich> and CL plus blocks lets you implement complex stuff like THC
[02:25:58] <steves_logging> Has any further discussion happened regarding driving the timing from the bottom up (interrupt from servos etc.) as opposed to top down?
[02:26:19] <jmkasunich> not really
[02:27:22] <steves_logging> We are going to need this to handle "smart" motion control boxes with remote communications, e.g. G-Rex like devices, right?
[02:27:46] <jmkasunich> probably
[02:28:27] <steves_logging> Did you end up with one of the G-Rex boards?
[02:28:29] <jmkasunich> but doing it entails diving deeper into the internals than I've been willing to do - RTAPI has been almost untouched for 2 years, and the core of HAL for almost that long
[02:28:40] <jmkasunich> Yeah, I have the G-rex and the Rabbit kit
[02:28:48] <jmkasunich> and nowhere near enough time to play with it
[02:29:50] <steves_logging> OK, Matt got a G-Rex and I supplied the Rabbit stuff. He played a little and put it on the shelf. I prodded him when he got the crane and the stuff is headed my way.
[02:30:12] <steves_logging> I want to play with it under the open API that Mach now has.
[02:30:17] <jmkasunich> I got an ethernet rabbit - I just can't get excited about USB
[02:30:30] <steves_logging> Investigating future products to run with EMC and Mach.
[02:31:09] <jmkasunich> most of your stuff connects to the PC thru the parport? or have you made PCI cards?
[02:31:37] <steves_logging> I like USB, but that is just me. Ethernet is fine, but TCP overhead is too much for simple processors. Maybe datagram mode.
[02:31:56] <steves_logging> We have only done one PCI bcard and it was cookbook.
[02:32:19] <jmkasunich> the ethernet stuff I have in mind is pretty much raw packets on a point to point link
[02:32:39] <steves_logging> We have done several USB widgets, including a full duplex encryped voice headset.
[02:32:57] <jmkasunich> windows drivers on the PC side, right?
[02:33:07] <steves_logging> Yes.
[02:33:31] <jmkasunich> since I'm interested in hard RT on the PC side (and Linux), the doze drivers don't help me much
[02:33:59] <jmkasunich> and USB seems a heck of a lot more complex than ethernet, because there is a discovery phase, lots of negotation, etc
[02:34:13] <jmkasunich> with raw ethernet, you send a packet and listen for a reply, thats it
[02:35:09] <jmkasunich> basically, its a really fast UART with a 1.5K buffer ;-)
[02:36:46] <steves_logging> The USB issue as I see it is not the protocol but rather the fact that there are several chipset implementations and the realtime stuff will have to talk to them directly.
[02:37:01] <jmkasunich> yeah, but ethernet has the same problem
[02:37:23] <steves_logging> Yes, but it is more mature. Clarkson style drivers.
[02:37:39] <jmkasunich> clarkson?
[02:38:14] <steves_logging> A set of Ethernet hardware drivers with a standardized API.
[02:38:37] <steves_logging> Most popular chips are supported.
[02:38:49] <jmkasunich> what platform is it for?
[02:39:05] <jmkasunich> linux, doze? or micros?
[02:39:32] <steves_logging> It is really low level stuff, should work in any X86 environment.
[02:39:55] <cradek> are those the ones I used to use in realmode dos?
[02:40:04] <steves_logging> Yep
[02:40:06] <jmkasunich> have to look into that if/when I ever get around to working with the Grex
[02:40:08] <jepler> ... really need) is the availability of the Crynwr (nee Clarkson) packet driver. ... 3Com's </google excerpts>
[02:40:24] <jepler> I've heard of crynwr
[02:40:31] <jepler> /goodnight
[02:40:39] <jmkasunich> he Jeff!
[02:40:51] <jmkasunich> "hey" I mean
[02:40:55] <cradek> they have a decent license iirc
[02:41:09] <jmkasunich> I saw the commit that logs errors to a window... great work, thanks!
[02:44:33] <steves_logging> JMK - There has been some work on USB in realtime under Linux, see: https://bat.berlios.de/pipermail/usb4rt-users/
[02:45:52] <jmkasunich> too much information ;-)
[02:46:00] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich should really be drilling holes right now
[02:46:24] <jmkasunich> I have a machining job that I've been procrastinating on for a while
[02:47:12] <steves_logging> And I need to get some sleep so I can be excited about moving more stuff tomorrow... 8-)
[02:47:21] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[02:47:29] <steves_logging> Later...
[09:50:56] <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. We're going to suspend new connects for just a few minutes while we work on resolving some cloaking issues. Apologies for the inconvenience.
[10:01:52] <lilo> [Global Notice] We're open for new connects again. We'll probably need to do this one more time at some point. Thanks!
[17:03:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> Lerneaen_Hydra is now known as PINK_PONIES
[17:04:35] <PINK_PONIES> PINK_PONIES is now known as Lerneaen_Hydra