#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-06-07

[12:28:31] <SkunkworksD> good job alex - emc up and runniing the tort.ncg :)
[12:28:39] <alex_joni> YAY ;)
[12:28:47] <alex_joni> SkunkworksD: how about the booting?
[12:28:51] <alex_joni> was it still black?
[12:28:56] <alex_joni> or did you get a splash ?
[12:29:22] <SkunkworksD> no
[12:29:30] <alex_joni> which no?
[12:29:42] <SkunkworksD> sorry - there is stll no splash
[12:29:51] <alex_joni> really?
[12:29:53] <alex_joni> hmm..
[12:29:57] <alex_joni> can you pastebin a dmesg ?
[12:30:04] <SkunkworksD> sure
[12:30:07] <SkunkworksD> hold on
[12:30:29] <SkunkworksD> (could it be my issue?
[12:30:38] <alex_joni> not sure, but I want to make sure
[12:30:43] <alex_joni> it's probably not you
[12:31:00] <alex_joni> but I need to know what hardware you have, etc (most is in dmesg)
[12:31:22] <alex_joni> SkunkworksD: run cat /proc/cmdline
[12:31:31] <alex_joni> paste in here (one line)
[12:32:02] <SkunkworksD> root=/dev/hda1 ro quiet splash
[12:32:25] <alex_joni> ok, so 'splash' is in there.. so far so good ;)
[12:34:23] <SkunkworksD> http://pastebin.com/765049
[12:36:09] <alex_joni> ok, thanks
[12:40:53] <skunkworks> this is a ecs p4vmm2 motherboard with 1gb
[12:41:35] <alex_joni> CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.40GHz stepping 09
[12:42:09] <skunkworks> with the latency test it gets tons of overruns - (right now it is using the onboard video)
[12:42:26] <skunkworks> was that from the dmesg?
[12:44:39] <alex_joni> yup
[13:05:49] <skunkworks> so far so good - nice
[13:09:52] <skunkworks> Nice work
[14:18:12] <alex_joni> skunkworks: I'll try to ask smarter people about the splash
[14:18:21] <alex_joni> will get back to asking you if I need more info.. ok?
[14:19:10] <skunkworks> I will be around. :)
[15:12:31] <skunkworks> alex_joni: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/Dapper.png
[15:12:35] <skunkworks> :)
[15:21:25] <alex_joni> skunkworks: nice
[15:26:04] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: neat, how's stability/performance/general behavior?
[15:26:36] <skunkworks> no issues yet - this is just a test machine so I am not actually controlling anything.
[15:27:10] <skunkworks> other than no splash screen on bootup - but we don't know if that is my issue or not.
[15:28:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: does it output signals correctly to the parport/IO-card?
[15:29:40] <skunkworks> I am just running the sims right nwo
[15:29:41] <skunkworks> now
[15:32:04] <alex_joni> logger_devel: bookmark
[15:32:04] <alex_joni> See
[15:32:18] <skunkworks> plus this machine has a onboard video card which doesn't seem to play with rt well.
[15:33:16] <alex_joni> skunkworks: I think it's not your issue, as you say the default kernel does produce a boot splash..
[15:33:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, onboard video tends to mess up with RT?
[15:33:21] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: big time
[15:33:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that could explain the strange behavior I've been having
[15:33:40] <skunkworks> SWPadnos says mainly it is the shared memory issue
[15:33:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> pauses (0.1sec) during a g1 move for instance
[15:33:59] <skunkworks> Lerneaen_Hydra: have you run the rt latency test yet?
[15:34:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes, but it didn't give very strange values
[15:34:12] <SWPadnos> yep. my panel PC has "integrated video", but the frambuffer is actually on the video controller chip
[15:34:20] <SWPadnos> and I have no problems with that machine
[15:34:24] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 26k as the OVL max
[15:35:01] <skunkworks> no overruns? where you opening and closing windows (like a web browser)
[15:35:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> yes
[15:35:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> opening gimp, oo.org, moving windows, etc etc
[15:35:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> 0 overruns
[15:36:15] <cradek> try an opengl app
[15:36:23] <cradek> like one of the gl screensavers
[15:36:34] <cradek> my nvidia is fine until I run something with gl
[15:36:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how much of the integrated graphics would you need to disable?
[15:36:37] <skunkworks> it pauses for .1 second in the middle of a move?
[15:36:42] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, I'll test that
[15:36:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> skunkworks: yes, something like 1/10th
[15:37:04] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: typically you just plug in a pci/agp card and it disables
[15:37:50] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, that's enough? How do I get breezy to update and find the new card?
[15:38:50] <cradek> you tell apt to reconfigure X, I'd have to search the ubuntu wiki for the exact command
[15:39:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> ok, I'll play with it a bit. What type of card would be suitable for an EMC machine? A simple agp card?
[15:40:18] <cradek> pretty much anything, even nvidia works with the open "nv" driver
[15:41:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> would an old ati be ok with teh default driver?
[15:41:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> not the closed-source one
[15:41:36] <cradek> yes
[15:42:12] <SWPadnos> unless you run into the problems that A-L-P-H-A and I have been hitting
[15:43:04] <SWPadnos> I have a Radeon 8500DV, and X only works sometimes, and it locks while the screensaver is running (maybe when it tries to put the monitor into power-save mode)
[15:43:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh
[15:43:26] <Lerneaen_Hydra> it was a rage turbo or something, an agp card from 1998
[15:43:35] <Lerneaen_Hydra> would an old matrox card be better?
[15:43:46] <SWPadnos> this machine worked forthe most part with breezy, but would still lock sometimes after the screensaver ran
[15:44:01] <SWPadnos> Matrox would probably be better - something in the G100-G500 range
[15:44:12] <cradek> we put a matrox in the Mazak, and I have a matrox in my mill's machine
[15:44:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> so no hardware need for opengl?
[15:44:45] <SWPadnos> if only thay had released programming info on the new cards - I'd probably have a Parhelia in my Linux machines
[15:44:57] <Lerneaen_Hydra> AFAICT it only has support for basic 2d stuff
[15:44:58] <SWPadnos> HW openGL tends to wreak havoc on RT performance
[15:45:11] <SWPadnos> at least, the NVidia driver does
[15:45:27] <cradek> SWPadnos: the hardware GL ATI in my laptop, by good luck, works fine
[15:45:37] <SWPadnos> cool. what chip is that?
[15:45:48] <cradek> ummmm
[15:45:56] <cradek> no idea
[15:46:12] <SWPadnos> lspci -vv | grep -i ati ;)
[15:46:14] <cradek> it's an oldish laptop
[15:46:32] <cradek> you mean go out to the car, bring in the laptop, plug it in and wait for it to boot, then lspci
[15:46:32] <SWPadnos> it's probably a rage mobility something-or-other then
[15:46:47] <SWPadnos> can't you just remotely power it up and ssh into it? ;)
[15:46:53] <cradek> well no.
[15:46:59] <SWPadnos> damn
[15:47:15] <SWPadnos> are you using the ati driver ot fglrx?
[15:47:24] <SWPadnos> probably fglrx, with HW openGL
[15:47:33] <cradek> I'm using the open one whatever it's called
[15:47:41] <SWPadnos> ah -ati or radeon
[15:47:52] <SWPadnos> or did you install gatos drivers?
[15:48:26] <cradek> I'll bring the thing in later and we can examine it
[15:48:33] <SWPadnos> ok. any time is fine
[15:48:43] <cradek> I don't remember what I did, but it was a bit hairy and involved building some kernel modules
[15:48:53] <SWPadnos> that shouldn't be aq problem ;)
[15:49:00] <SWPadnos> -q
[15:49:23] <cradek> yeah it wasn't bad but it was finicky
[15:49:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads home
[15:49:44] <cradek> the install used .a instead of .so (or vice versa) so a lot of the files it installed weren't picked up by the x server
[15:49:50] <cradek> so I dinked with it until it worked
[15:49:56] <SWPadnos> uh - oh
[15:49:59] <SWPadnos> I hate that
[15:50:02] <cradek> yeah
[15:50:13] <SWPadnos> "let's fight the system, instead of the problem"
[15:50:14] <cradek> now I will try not to change it for a long time.
[15:50:18] <SWPadnos> reminds me of LabView ;)
[15:50:22] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: lol
[19:23:38] <alex_joni> hello everyone
[19:24:16] <Lerneaen_Hydra> lo bob
[19:25:37] <alex_joni> bob who?
[19:27:17] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, you havn't seen weeble & bob have you (cradeks favorite ;) )
[19:27:37] <Lerneaen_Hydra> http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/pie.htm
[19:43:29] <jepler> Lerneaen_Hydra: I haven't seen that in ages
[19:45:33] <Lerneaen_Hydra> jepler: just as... interesting... every time?
[19:47:14] <jepler> it never changes
[19:50:32] <jepler> http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/100.htm
[19:58:34] <Lerneaen_Hydra> as strange as usual
[20:04:11] <alex_joni> sniff
[20:04:15] <alex_joni> donkey died
[20:04:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> poor donkey :(
[20:05:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra finds it rather humerous that a completely OT discussion is here in #emc-devel, while a very emc-orientated discussion is going on in #emc
[20:17:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: yay, Shon says his axis drift with arcs was just operator error
[20:18:22] <cradek> SWPadnos: you said earlier you figured it was being caused by misunderstanding about g92, and I bet you were right
[20:20:47] <SWPadnos> cool. I noticed that email as well
[20:21:47] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: of all the strnage "bugs" such as the axis drift, and my "issues" with G92 and touch off, how many are just operator error, rather than b0rken code?
[20:22:04] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: so far, arguably all of them
[20:22:25] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: there was some borked code in emc, but that was long ago :D
[20:22:26] <SWPadnos> I suspect that G92.x was working according to spec, though the spec may only be understandable by the spec writer
[20:22:40] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: looks like I (and many others) need to read through the documentation more in depth
[20:22:42] <cradek> that's what I think about G92 too.
[20:22:42] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: it's all in the docs
[20:22:51] <Lerneaen_Hydra> hmm, that's another way to look at it
[20:22:53] <jepler> the evidence mounts that maybe the spec for g92 should be revised
[20:22:57] <cradek> the spec DOES spell out the operation pretty carefully
[20:23:02] <SWPadnos> I saw that, that's the only reason I know anything about G92.x ;)
[20:23:13] <cradek> that doesn't mean the way it works isn't stupid.
[20:23:39] <cradek> and in that argument I have no opinion :-)
[20:23:49] <SWPadnos> it made sense to me, though I think one or two things weren't well thought out, like what happens when emc is restarted and parameters 5211-5216 are nonzero
[20:24:07] <SWPadnos> or not well documented at least
[20:24:09] <cradek> right
[20:24:19] <cradek> I didn't find that documented (but it might be)
[20:24:20] <Lerneaen_Hydra> I find the "set g92.2 in axis, exit emc, start axis again, and g92 is suddenly applied again" to be the main thing that surprised me
[20:24:35] <cradek> Lerneaen_Hydra: I agree
[20:24:55] <cradek> that behavior seems odd compared to m2 which unapplies it
[20:24:58] <SWPadnos> right - the surprise is that the offsets (in the parameter file) cause G92 to be turned on, and that's not explicitly stated in the docs
[20:25:05] <cradek> yes
[20:25:07] <SWPadnos> (at startup)
[20:25:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: random idea; maybe the values for G92 should be shown somewhere onscreen, as well as whether they're applied or not?
[20:25:19] <alex_joni> * alex_joni ponders about shutdown
[20:25:24] <SWPadnos> it would make more sense for those to get reset to 0 on shutdown or startup
[20:26:00] <cradek> I disagree about that
[20:26:13] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:26:14] <cradek> SWPadnos: ^^
[20:26:19] <alex_joni> lol, crazy idea: how about having another tooltip (grayed out, hardly visible) that is in the original place (without G92 applied)
[20:26:33] <cradek> I agree that is crazy
[20:26:39] <cradek> :-)
[20:26:41] <SWPadnos> I meant emc startup/shutdown, not hte GUI
[20:26:42] <alex_joni> cradek: it's late ;)
[20:27:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> alex_joni: I find that rather cumbersome, it would be hard to see which value it is, you would just see A value
[20:27:15] <alex_joni> but it would make a lot of sence after enough beers
[20:27:29] <Lerneaen_Hydra> point taken
[20:27:43] <alex_joni> s/sence/sense/
[20:28:41] <Lerneaen_Hydra> oh, another user's random musings. What does the home button in AXIS really do? (I should really read through the docs someday. soon.)
[20:28:55] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: it homes the machine
[20:28:59] <alex_joni> sets coordinates to 0
[20:29:10] <alex_joni> at least on the selected axis
[20:29:14] <Lerneaen_Hydra> moves the axes to a home position or changes the value of the axis?
[20:29:21] <alex_joni> how that workes depends on the setup
[20:29:31] <alex_joni> on simple machines it just changes the value to 0
[20:29:50] <alex_joni> on complicated ones it moves to a switch, backs off, moves on the switch again, watched for an encoder signal, etc
[20:29:57] <alex_joni> watches
[20:30:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> but with home switches it's suitable for it to move to the physical switch?
[20:30:07] <alex_joni> yes
[20:30:36] <cradek> the precise answer is it initiates a homing procedure on the selected axis: that can mean many things depending on your emc setup.
[20:30:43] <Lerneaen_Hydra> and the offset function is like touch off, except it changes it's value to 0 and not any value you want to enter=
[20:30:55] <cradek> yes
[20:31:12] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: so you could have a complicated script with g03, m8, m3, and so on in the homing procedure?
[20:31:21] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: no
[20:31:32] <alex_joni> homing is a machine state in the motion controller
[20:31:33] <cradek> no, homing means certain things
[20:31:42] <alex_joni> configured by certain ini file references
[20:32:13] <cradek> it's nicely documented but in a strange place - I think alex is working on moving it
[20:32:22] <Lerneaen_Hydra> what are you limited to be able to do? set axis to a value, move said axis to a certain position, and move said axis untill IOpin X is high/low?
[20:32:31] <Lerneaen_Hydra> cradek: that sounds good
[20:32:42] <alex_joni> Lerneaen_Hydra: http://www.linuxcnc.org/EMC2_Code_Notes.pdf
[20:32:58] <alex_joni> right now it's there.. I plan to include it in the emc2_user_manual soon
[20:34:37] <alex_joni> but not tonight
[20:35:03] <Lerneaen_Hydra> heh ;)
[20:35:25] <Lerneaen_Hydra> g'night all (it's late here too)
[20:36:07] <Lerneaen_Hydra> * Lerneaen_Hydra notices that the backlash compensation page is very empty
[20:36:28] <alex_joni> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1460779&group_id=6744&atid=106744
[20:37:00] <Lerneaen_Hydra> that sounds like the problem I had too
[20:37:19] <Lerneaen_Hydra> anyway, gnight all
[20:39:18] <cradek> I suppose we could put G92.2 or G92.3 in our startup codes as desired
[20:39:30] <cradek> or maybe even m2
[20:39:42] <alex_joni> cradek: noticed that bug report?
[20:40:18] <cradek> yes I've seen it before
[20:41:21] <alex_joni> ok.. just seen it
[20:41:45] <cradek> I still think the BC moves should be added as segments before TP, then TP will blend/smooth them and honor all constraints
[20:41:53] <cradek> JMK disagrees wholeheartedly
[20:42:16] <cradek> the problem with my scheme is we would have to split arcs at quadrants
[20:43:01] <alex_joni> I see, but fail to comprehend now ;)
[20:43:06] <cradek> ok goodnight :-)
[20:43:14] <jepler> isn't the answer "set min_ferror larger than backlash, and let stepgen's constraints make the backlash compensation happen at the fastest acceptable rate?
[20:43:42] <alex_joni> cradek: does this look ok? http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=577599
[20:43:48] <alex_joni> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=577600
[20:45:07] <cradek> yes looks great, thanks
[20:45:09] <cradek> bbl
[20:45:12] <cradek> bbl/goodnight
[20:45:40] <alex_joni> goodnight/bbl
[22:28:46] <Roguish> fenn: the other day you suggested i start a list of suppliers and whatnots. what format does something like that need to be in?
[22:32:06] <Roguish> anyone else?
[22:32:18] <fenn> how about: name in bold, followed by relative price, selection, and speed
[22:32:41] <fenn> and a representative list of the kind of products they sell
[22:33:09] <fenn> with a link to their page when you click on the name
[22:33:15] <Roguish> a simple text doc?
[22:33:21] <fenn> i was thinking on the wiki
[22:33:36] <fenn> i'll make a template for you to copy
[22:34:28] <Roguish> i have no idea what format that requires. but given an example, i'm sure i can match most any format.
[22:34:43] <Roguish> cooooool
[22:34:48] <fenn> wiki formatting is quite easy to learn
[22:38:33] <fenn> usemod (the wiki software) is somewhat annoying, and i cant get rid of the brackets around names, so you're going to have to live with it i think
[22:41:00] <fenn> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Suppliers
[22:41:52] <Roguish> ok, so dumb question. how do i use this?
[22:41:55] <fenn> ah whoops
[22:42:05] <fenn> I wish this part were more obvious
[22:42:22] <fenn> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[22:43:19] <fenn> CamelCase is turned off so you have to use [[ ]]'s to make links
[22:43:59] <Roguish> thanks, i'll look at it, and put together a good list before mucking with the actual wiki. i've bookmarked those 2 pages.
[22:44:30] <Roguish> any special permissions or logins to edit the wiki?
[22:44:34] <fenn> well, i'm an advocate of just getting stuff out there so people can see it, rather than perfecting something that may not be useful
[22:44:54] <fenn> you have to enter "emc" in the administrator password box to be able to edit pages
[22:44:54] <Roguish> oh, it will be a long way from perfect.....
[22:46:35] <fenn> if anyone else is watching... or, perhaps i should ask the board
[22:46:47] <fenn> is it really useful to have EMC1 stuff on the front of the wiki like that?
[22:47:09] <fenn> with "Versions" right at the top
[22:47:19] <fenn> kinda weird intro if you ask me
[22:47:49] <fenn> obviously we are shoving EMC1 into a dark corner, so why pretend to support it?
[22:49:53] <Roguish> my stuff will be generic machine design components, just things i've found to be useful. no junk.
[22:50:30] <fenn> like sdp-si and msc?
[22:50:54] <fenn> or more specific, like brand recommendations?
[22:51:07] <Roguish> more specific.
[22:51:35] <Roguish> actual manufacturers.
[22:52:01] <fenn> perhaps it would be good to have a sort of "vote for this brand if you've used and are satisfied" kind of thing
[22:52:28] <fenn> then people will also know someone else who has used it and can ask them questiosn
[22:53:16] <Roguish> let me get it going over the next couple of weeks and see how hard it is, and how it looks.
[22:53:20] <fenn> so i guess "parts and raw materials suppliers" doesnt quite fit your vision
[22:53:45] <fenn> or, does it?
[22:53:50] <Roguish> kinda
[22:54:18] <fenn> right, well, you can edit any page so change whatever you feel needs changing
[22:55:01] <Roguish> i will stick to the suppliers page. i really dont want to mess up anything else.
[22:59:25] <Roguish> thanks.
[23:24:53] <fenn> boy this wiki needs some work