#emc-devel | Logs for 2006-05-15

[04:35:00] <cradek> hello from cnc workshop
[04:35:14] <fenn> hiya
[04:36:37] <cradek> hey
[04:38:53] <jepler> hi chris
[04:38:57] <jepler> you got the network working?
[04:39:11] <jepler> I'm on the hotel wireless now, it's OK but not fast
[04:40:13] <cradek> yep, it's working but may still have problems with dhcp, not sure
[04:41:08] <fenn> so are you like, ssh'ed into your home box or something? how come neither of you logged on?
[04:43:07] <jepler> fenn: I leave irssi running in a screen all the time
[04:43:26] <jepler> I like to lull people into believing I'm not here, so I can scroll back and see if they say nasty things about me
[04:46:05] <cradek> hah
[06:19:12] <alex_joni> lol.. same here ;)
[06:19:23] <alex_joni> probably too late for you guys though
[11:44:48] <skunkworks> you guys have fun at the workshop - hopefully see a bunch of you friday. You'll know me - I'm the goofy looking one :)
[11:45:03] <alex_joni> skunkworks: lol
[11:45:26] <alex_joni> lunchtime
[11:45:53] <skunkworks> breakfast
[16:15:36] <alex_joni> very silent festers
[16:28:34] <skunkworks> I'm feeling a little left out :)
[16:35:57] <skunkworks> http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.jpg
[16:36:05] <skunkworks> I spy an osilloscope
[16:41:37] <cradek> just got the first new photo on festcam
[16:42:04] <jmkasunich> we're not happy with its existing location, want to move it so it can see the real activity
[16:47:28] <Lerneaen_Hydra> how often is it updated? every 60 seconds?
[16:50:31] <SWPadnos> hi folks
[16:50:39] <SWPadnos> is jmkasunich around?
[16:51:08] <skunkworks> he was just here
[16:51:11] <SWPadnos> ok
[16:51:23] <skunkworks> just got this http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.jpg setup
[16:51:27] <SWPadnos> damn. I guess I should see if they're teaching a class now
[16:51:43] <skunkworks> and there he is :)
[16:51:56] <SWPadnos> I guess so
[16:56:29] <SWPadnos> argh. I guess I should check out of this hotel and start the second half of my drive
[16:56:33] <SWPadnos> see you around
[16:56:40] <skunkworks> maybe friday?
[16:56:48] <SWPadnos> you going?
[16:56:51] <skunkworks> or are you not going to the fest?
[16:56:59] <skunkworks> I will be there friday-sat and sun
[16:57:00] <SWPadnos> I'm headed there now
[16:57:03] <skunkworks> cool
[16:57:07] <SWPadnos> well, once I check out ;)
[16:57:24] <SWPadnos> I wanted to see how long it took jmk to get there - I'm about 20 miles west of his house
[16:59:28] <skunkworks> he seems to be a busy little beaver
[16:59:55] <SWPadnos> yeah - in frame, out of frame, in frame, out of frame ... :)
[17:00:07] <SWPadnos> ooooh - onlookers ;)
[17:00:31] <skunkworks> now he's just showing off ;)
[17:00:33] <SWPadnos> I wish jmkasunich had a speaker so his machine would beep at him when I say jmkasunich
[17:04:14] <jmkasunich> hi swp
[17:04:19] <SWPadnos> hi there
[17:04:22] <SWPadnos> nice lathe ;)
[17:04:32] <jmkasunich> took me about 7 hours
[17:04:39] <jmkasunich> driving 70-75
[17:04:43] <SWPadnos> that looks like a jmk SCSI drive on that plastic bin ;)
[17:04:57] <SWPadnos> ok. that's good. were there a lot of construction zones?
[17:05:18] <jmkasunich> no, only the south side of chicago
[17:05:28] <jmkasunich> oops, correction
[17:05:40] <jmkasunich> there were a few, but with nobody working on sunday
[17:05:42] <SWPadnos> cool. also, how far from your place is Westlake? (where I am now)
[17:05:48] <jmkasunich> might be worse for you :-(
[17:05:50] <SWPadnos> right - that was the real question ;)
[17:06:02] <jmkasunich> probably 40 miles, I'm well east of downtown
[17:06:21] <SWPadnos> ok. that should shave 1/2-1 hour then, right?
[17:07:28] <SWPadnos> will people still be there at ~8:00, or will things have moved to the hotel (/dinner)?
[17:07:28] <jmkasunich> at least a half
[17:07:31] <SWPadnos> ok
[17:07:36] <jmkasunich> we'll probably still be here
[17:07:56] <jmkasunich> last night we went to eat at 9:30-10, and cradek and I came back after to look into a network problem
[17:07:56] <SWPadnos> good deal. I gather the internet connection at Roland's is more robust than at the hotel
[17:08:01] <jmkasunich> the hacker types will be here late
[17:08:03] <SWPadnos> heh - ok
[17:08:20] <SWPadnos> cool. I'll still need to remote update that LabView RT controller tonight
[17:08:36] <SWPadnos> I should get going then. see you in 8-10 hours ;)
[17:09:12] <jmkasunich> get moving
[17:09:17] <SWPadnos> bye ;)
[17:09:17] <jmkasunich> we're already eating lunch
[17:09:22] <SWPadnos> ok
[17:09:29] <SWPadnos> 5 4 3 2 1 0
[19:37:43] <alex_joni> bigAl_: the #emc channel tends to be very noisy
[19:37:44] <bigAl_> right. small changes.
[19:37:58] <alex_joni> that's why there is an #emc-devel for more serious stuff
[19:38:03] <alex_joni> * alex_joni listens
[19:38:09] <bigAl_> rtai_rtapi.c
[19:38:28] <alex_joni> bug-fix ?
[19:40:39] <jmkasunich> rtapi?
[19:41:05] <bigAl_> drop asm/msr.h include and the rdtscll call
[19:41:31] <bigAl_> use get_cycles in its place
[19:41:35] <jmkasunich> and replace it with?
[19:41:48] <jmkasunich> is get_cycles fast?
[19:42:16] <bigAl_> it is a wrapper around native asm code
[19:42:32] <jmkasunich> (got burnt using rtai's get_time_ns, which actually took something like 5uS to run)
[19:42:56] <jmkasunich> that sounds promising
[19:44:54] <bigAl_> get_cycles is portable unlike rdtscll
[19:45:12] <jmkasunich> is get_cycles() available (and returns something other than zero) even if CONFIG_X86_TSC is undefined?
[19:46:13] <bigAl_> you would need to check the kernel source.
[19:46:25] <jmkasunich> doing that
[19:46:27] <bigAl_> I do ppc mainly.
[19:47:44] <jmkasunich> http://lxr.linux.no/source/include/asm-i386/timex.h#L37
[19:48:25] <alex_joni> hmm.. it seems to call rdtscll() itself
[19:48:48] <jmkasunich> assuming all the ifdefs line up properly
[19:48:58] <jmkasunich> its kinda at the mercy of the kernel config
[19:49:15] <jmkasunich> time measurement has given me fits on and off for a couple years
[19:49:28] <jmkasunich> which is why I'm reluctant to change it
[19:49:47] <jmkasunich> one attempt resulted in some BDI kernels returning zero all the time
[19:49:54] <jmkasunich> another had 55mS resolution
[19:49:55] <jmkasunich> etc, etc
[19:50:09] <bigAl_> If cpu_has_tsc, probably set at boot time, it will read the tsc.
[19:50:39] <jmkasunich> I'm open to the idea, but I would only want to do it after I get home, so I can test on all the compile farm boxes
[19:50:51] <jmkasunich> could you submit a tracker at sourceforge to remind me?
[19:51:11] <bigAl_> OK.
[19:51:16] <jmkasunich> thanks
[19:51:32] <bigAl_> The other change is even smaller
[19:52:46] <jmkasunich> ?
[19:52:55] <bigAl_> tkemc.tcl line 1159. change the default font to courier not 10 point
[19:53:15] <jmkasunich> tkemc fonts isn't something I know about
[19:54:14] <jmkasunich> more accurately, fonts is something I don't know about.... I do low level stuff
[19:54:30] <jmkasunich> I thought there was recent list discussion about that, thougth jepler already applied a fix
[19:54:31] <bigAl_> but you can get it changed ?
[19:54:42] <jepler> bigAl_: in the HEAD of emc2 development, I've added code to use "courier 10 pitch" if it exists, or "courier" otherwise.
[19:54:57] <jepler> bigAl_: however, I haven't been able to test this on any system besides ubuntu, which has "courier 10 pitch"
[19:55:07] <alex_joni> jepler: I just ran HEAD, and tkemc barfed.. maybe it's me.. I'll check again
[19:55:18] <jepler> alex_joni: maybe I screwed it up then
[19:55:43] <alex_joni> jepler: getting an error
[19:55:46] <jepler> this is the change I made: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl.diff?r1=1.30;r2=1.31;f=h
[19:55:56] <jepler> alex_joni: paste it to me or something
[19:56:02] <jepler> alex_joni: on what os?
[19:56:10] <alex_joni> ubuntu
[19:56:28] <jepler> but .. I tested it after the patch!
[19:56:31] <bigAl_> you still using sourceforge ?
[19:56:51] <jmkasunich> I certainly hope not
[19:56:54] <alex_joni> jepler: I don't have anything special in the ini.. maybe that's why?
[19:57:07] <jepler> oh, of course, I changed one little thing after I tested it, and got it wrong..
[19:57:08] <alex_joni> bigAl_: nope, I already commited loads of stuff from here :)
[19:58:05] <jepler> bigAl_: we moved to a self-hosted server while sourceforge was having problems. there's information about the server on wiki.linuxcvs.org
[19:59:08] <alex_joni> wiki.linuxcnc.org
[19:59:23] <jepler> oops yes
[19:59:24] <alex_joni> jepler seems distracted today ;)
[19:59:48] <jmkasunich> he's sitting next to jepler and daveE is standing there talking to both of them
[19:59:53] <alex_joni> who's in the fest image?
[20:00:23] <jmkasunich> cradek in center, jepler on right, daveE left
[20:00:39] <jmkasunich> or rather, parts of each person
[20:00:42] <alex_joni> cradek: wave
[20:00:55] <alex_joni> or at least slide a bit down in that chair
[20:01:28] <jepler> here, try this change: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl.diff?r1=1.30;r2=1.32;f=h
[20:01:58] <jepler> it should select the font from your .ini if specified, then "courier 10 pitch" if it exists, then "courier" as a last resort.
[20:02:39] <alex_joni> jepler: works OK
[20:03:18] <bigAl_> I will test.
[20:13:42] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes away for a while.. bbl
[20:36:51] <bigAl_> typo on line 1138
[20:37:04] <bigAl_> fontfamiliy is wrong
[22:08:26] <bigAl_> OK back from an interesting meeting. You guys have time to talk ?
[22:08:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is still around..
[22:08:43] <jmkasunich> maybe
[22:09:52] <bigAl_> secured some funding for another four weeks
[22:10:02] <fenn> livin on the edge
[22:11:35] <bigAl_> what do we need to do to get emc2 in to bdi-4 ?
[22:11:58] <alex_joni> bigAl_: any particular reason for needing that?
[22:12:44] <bigAl_> They liked the installer and felt it was more polished than Ubuntu
[22:13:05] <skunkworks> really? wow
[22:13:23] <skunkworks> because of the grapics and ads?
[22:13:30] <bigAl_> and bdi-4 has a cad package we can push (read sell)
[22:13:31] <alex_joni> bigAl_: it should be fairly easy to generate debs for BDI
[22:13:48] <alex_joni> you mean synergy?
[22:14:48] <bigAl_> Yes. we can sell it as a complete package to our client
[22:15:47] <bigAl_> the ppc stuff has been shelved for another day.
[22:16:56] <jepler> bigAl_: to build a deb is harder. to just build & run emc2 on bdi4 you can use the instructions here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BDI-4_38_Compile_EMC2
[22:22:30] <skunkworks> bigAl_: I had done it on the previous bdi - wasn't too bad. (I like ubuntu though)
[22:22:58] <skunkworks> can't synergy be installed on ubuntu?
[22:23:53] <alex_joni> jepler: shouldn't 'sudo apt-get build-dep emc2 && fakeroot apt-get -b source emc2' work ?
[22:25:36] <jepler> alex_joni: first problem is hard-coded kernel versions. you have to fix that (to not hard code them), rather than check in a version that builds for one of the bdi kernels. second you have to either uninstall emc1.5 or do something in emc2 about conflicting filenames. and maybe there's something else.
[22:26:33] <alex_joni> from shortly looking at paul's emc2 deb I saw that he tagged it as conflicting with emc
[22:26:59] <alex_joni> so I guess that takes care of the later part
[22:27:44] <alex_joni> re: hard-coded kernels. paul seems to be doing the same thing (at least for the modules.. I mean you still need them compiled for a certain version, or am I missing anything?)
[22:28:23] <jepler> * jepler shrugs
[22:28:24] <jmkasunich> cd ..
[22:28:58] <alex_joni> bash: cd ..: command not found
[22:29:27] <jmkasunich> :-P
[22:29:33] <bigAl_> Yet you have a deb for Ubuntu, so why should it be harder ?
[22:29:37] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich doesn't know if he's coming or going
[22:29:45] <bigAl_> OK, so a deb is not hard, how about getting it included on the CD ?
[22:30:10] <alex_joni> bigAl_: that might be a problem or not, depending on the mood of the BDI maintainer
[22:30:11] <bigAl_> Would the offer of money help to get this going ?
[22:30:23] <alex_joni> he's not exactly known for his good temper
[22:30:44] <alex_joni> bigAl_: I would ask nicely first, if I were you
[22:31:21] <alex_joni> bigAl_: you could always build your own CD though..
[22:32:30] <bigAl_> It looks like this guy knows what he is doing so there seems little point in duplicating his work
[22:32:56] <jepler> bigAl_: the bdi installer is all opensource (anaconda is gpl, for instance) .. just ask paul for the source.
[22:34:25] <bigAl_> Do you have a full name and email address ?
[22:34:31] <cradek> that's true, you should be able to add some packages to it if you like, since it's gpl
[22:34:35] <fenn> *drama alert* *bweeeoop*
[22:34:58] <jepler> From: Paul <bdi4emc@bulldoghome.com>
[22:35:05] <jepler> I think is name is Paul Corner.
[22:36:14] <jepler> he's in the UK
[22:37:26] <bigAl_> Would 5K be enough to get the ball rolling on this ?
[22:38:03] <jepler> I have no idea what paul would want
[22:39:35] <alex_joni> but giving away 5k like that sure seems rather silly
[22:40:40] <fenn> give 5k to paul because paul screwed up the emc2 package?
[22:40:46] <fenn> * fenn boggles at the concept
[22:44:25] <bigAl_> The emc2 package is "screwed up" ?
[22:46:31] <alex_joni> bigAl_: paul included an emc2 package on the latest bdi, yet it's not done quite right, and it's not the release version, but rather some random CVS snapshot
[22:46:45] <jepler> bigAl_: paul made one emc2 package for bdi. he did not pick a released version, but some random version from our CVS. we don't know what other problems there might be, because I don't think anyone here ever tried it.
[22:47:08] <jepler> he also made it sound scary and dangerous to try it, as though his real motive wasn't to encourage people to use emc2, but rather the opposite.
[22:48:59] <bigAl_> My first reaction o this is "jeez, just who is in charge of this project.", the second, "don't you guys ever sit down and have a sensible discussion"
[22:50:12] <alex_joni> bigAl_: we tried so many times, eventually we gave up
[22:50:18] <jepler> the friction between paul_c and everyone else is about the only blemish on an otherwise cooperative effort
[22:51:33] <alex_joni> oh, maybe I should say that for myself..
[22:52:27] <jepler> alex_joni: you may say it for me too
[22:53:59] <alex_joni> bigAl_: somewhere in the past we just said that it's too much time and nerve consuming to try to debate it, so we're just going our own way, and wish paul & his project all the best
[22:54:23] <alex_joni> jepler: may I say that for you too? :-D
[22:56:02] <jepler> yes
[22:57:34] <bigAl_> OK, so you think I will be wasting money on emc2 ?
[22:57:59] <alex_joni> that's an odd question
[22:58:26] <alex_joni> emc2 is OpenSourceSoftware, and by definition free of charge
[22:59:16] <alex_joni> if you feel bery strong about having it on the BDI, just ask Paul to do that, and see what his answer is
[22:59:29] <alex_joni> s/bery/very/
[23:02:07] <bigAl_> We just want something that is easy to install, and if it looks pretty in the process, even better.
[23:02:37] <bigAl_> We also need a single point of contact with the group developing the code.
[23:03:26] <alex_joni> well, if you want emc2 then probably paul is a bad choice as the single point of contact
[23:03:48] <alex_joni> bigAl_: we have a few mailing lists you probably are aware (users, developers, board)
[23:05:03] <fenn> wasn't the board supposed to function as a single point of contact for this exact sort of situation?
[23:05:09] <jepler> bigAl_: if you make contact with paul and get the source to the anaconda installer, please let me know. I'm Jeff Epler <jepler@unpy.net>
[23:05:40] <alex_joni> fenn: the board is happy to answer any requests it gets
[23:05:53] <alex_joni> darn .. speaking for others again..
[23:06:17] <alex_joni> fenn: I am happy to answer any request received as a board-member
[23:06:49] <fenn> i nominate alex_joni as PR representative
[23:06:51] <jmkasunich> three board members (alex, cradek, and myself) are watching this conversation
[23:06:58] <jmkasunich> another is in the next room
[23:07:09] <jmkasunich> and the fifth is expected here later this week
[23:08:50] <fenn> a couple days ago alex/jepler were talking about a semi-custom distro, basically Ubuntu with the emc2 packages already in it
[23:09:01] <bigAl_> Are the mailing lists archived somewhere ?
[23:09:06] <jmkasunich> yes
[23:09:13] <fenn> it really wouldnt be very difficult to customize it with pretty pictures during the installation
[23:09:14] <jmkasunich> URL in a sec
[23:09:45] <alex_joni> http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=6744
[23:09:57] <bigAl_> fenn - If you can do that in two weeks
[23:10:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: that's the second time I see that the Archives don't show up :(
[23:10:22] <jmkasunich> thanks alex
[23:10:46] <jmkasunich> is there anything sourceforge is doing right lately?
[23:10:52] <bigAl_> Thanks alex_joni. I will look over the last few months and try to get a picture.
[23:11:12] <alex_joni> bigAl_: right now it seems the archive is gone ..
[23:11:21] <alex_joni> this happened last week to, but it came back eventually
[23:11:35] <alex_joni> bigAl_: there are lots of IRC logs to read if you care
[23:11:39] <alex_joni> logger_devel: bookmark
[23:11:39] <alex_joni> See
[23:12:03] <alex_joni> bigAl_: also substitute /emcdevel/ with /emc/ to get the other channels logs
[23:12:15] <fenn> the whole archive isnt gone, just the last 10 days or so
[23:12:33] <alex_joni> fenn: doesn't show at all here..
[23:12:42] <alex_joni> emc-users (not yet archived)
[23:12:45] <jmkasunich> same here
[23:12:55] <fenn> hmm
[23:15:58] <fenn> works from my home IP but not from sdf.lonestar.org
[23:16:43] <alex_joni> no, they just turned back on
[23:16:44] <bigAl_> So the board is the main point of contact for emc ?
[23:16:57] <alex_joni> bigAl_: for emc & emc2 yes
[23:17:53] <alex_joni> we're just not a point of contact for BDI & the customized emc on it, although we can accept email regarding that and just send it further on
[23:18:07] <bigAl_> OK. So will one of you contact this paul guy and see if he is interested ?
[23:18:37] <fenn> could you summarize what you want?
[23:19:27] <bigAl_> emc2, cad, support packages, easy to use installer
[23:19:47] <alex_joni> define support packages?
[23:19:54] <bigAl_> There will be a requirement for some additional educational packages
[23:20:14] <bigAl_> along with file sharing
[23:21:10] <bigAl_> We have a modest budget for this, exact figures to be negotiated.
[23:21:14] <jepler> btw I heard from another person here at cnc-workshop that the makers of synergy suggested he switch from bdi4 to fc4 for stability.
[23:21:40] <fenn> is websys there at the workshop?
[23:22:04] <fenn> i'm sure they'd be interested
[23:22:16] <jepler> fenn: I don't know. this was dave-e talking.
[23:22:33] <jepler> websys is a commercial company I suppose their eyes light up when there are $$s
[23:22:50] <fenn> they were there last year
[23:23:38] <bigAl_> Looks like Synergy will run on any number of distributions
[23:24:03] <alex_joni> bigAl_: I really suggest you contacting paul directly (either by direct email or on the bdi4emc mailing list), and this isn't because I have something against writing him
[23:24:21] <bigAl_> but you guys look like you support Debian bases.
[23:24:49] <jepler> I don't see websys in the workshop information packet, but that doesn't mean they're not here.
[23:25:23] <jepler> what do you mean "debian bases"? We create a .deb package of emc2 but it's intended for use only on ubuntu breezy.
[23:25:29] <alex_joni> jepler: look for WeberSys, websys is bob's nick
[23:25:33] <fenn> just stick your head out the door yelling "bob? bob schuppel" :)
[23:25:36] <jepler> alex_joni: ah
[23:25:45] <alex_joni> he's over in #emc, but idle for 7 days :)
[23:26:06] <fenn> short-ish guy with dark hair
[23:26:16] <fenn> well, i'll tell him if i see him
[23:27:02] <bigAl_> I'm going to be late.
[23:27:32] <fenn> not sure exactly what i'll tell him though :)
[23:27:52] <fenn> um.. money, distro, pretty pictures
[23:27:57] <fenn> yeah
[23:29:13] <alex_joni> support packages
[23:29:35] <alex_joni> cad too
[23:30:22] <fenn> engineers need specifications, dammit!
[23:31:33] <fenn> why is it OSS seems to fall apart as soon as money enters the picture?
[23:31:50] <fenn> it should be the other way around
[23:33:05] <alex_joni> what falls apart?
[23:35:05] <fenn> the ability to get anything done
[23:35:20] <fenn> instead of worrying about petty drama
[23:35:47] <fenn> i feel like the board is hesitant to accept money because they think it will destroy their credibility
[23:36:39] <fenn> or the confidence in your product
[23:37:01] <fenn> like.. woah, i dont know if i can supply a product someone's willing to pay for
[23:37:26] <alex_joni> we already do that.. supply a product people would be willing to pay for
[23:37:32] <fenn> right
[23:37:36] <alex_joni> at least that's how I feel about it
[23:38:00] <fenn> you guys were just a couple days ago working on exactly what he was talking about
[23:38:10] <fenn> or what i was talking about at least
[23:38:11] <alex_joni> ?
[23:38:19] <fenn> ubuntu+emc2 on one cd
[23:38:35] <alex_joni> ah.. right, it's working as far as I've heard
[23:39:20] <alex_joni> and if you feel like doing it yourself, I included the instructions too
[23:39:29] <fenn> * fenn downloads synergy to test on ubuntu
[23:39:38] <alex_joni> but be warned.. it's not an easy process
[23:39:46] <alex_joni> synergy should be safe..
[23:39:59] <alex_joni> it does everything in /usr/webersys/
[23:40:19] <alex_joni> probably not the debian way.. but it's very predictable :D
[23:41:16] <fenn> 2 weeks isnt really enough time to make a reliable distro
[23:42:16] <jmkasunich> ls
[23:42:23] <jmkasunich> dammit ;-)
[23:42:23] <alex_joni> .
[23:42:24] <alex_joni> ..
[23:42:41] <alex_joni> bash: dammi ;-): wrong parameters